Female Pandora Owners

[quasist]

There is only one female pandora owner so far. The one photoshoped with it on pandoras' site. I do not count 3600+ degradating metrosexuals...

 

[PoisonedV]

There is only one female pandora owner so far. The one photoshoped with it on pandoras' site. I do not count 3600+ degradating metrosexuals...

Metrosexuals are well groomed, stylish men who are often the desire of the opposite sex. It seems much better, personally, than to be a grungy long haired humpback living with his parents with a set of monstrous fingernail/claws.

 

[Exophase]

Tiff, I was wondering if your brain has been scanned and you have personally shown positive for the "markers" determining gender you mention. It's one thing to say that this shows up in others, but it's something else to say that it shows up in you.

Over the years I have seen a lot of transgenders male to female online. I have seen very few female to male (I think I have not personally talked to any). Most of the online communities I've been part of have been predominantly male. In fact, I think that there may have been more m2f transgender (never have I met someone post op, although most mention wanting it) than females born with female anatomy. This is pretty peculiar, given that there must be at least 100 times as many non-trans women as trans women, meaning that all things considered equal I should be seeing less than 1/100th as many of them on these communities.

But that's not the case, so why not? And why is it that in nearly every scenario the person has given off hints in their mannerisms that seemed distinctly male? Sometimes they admit to it, other times they don't - the interesting cases are when someone realizes it long before they do admit to it, solely based on how they present themselves. Online, where looks and voice are concealed.

So why would trans women find typically male dominated communities much more appealing than non-trans women do? This could be a "nurture" argument, that they were raised to think like males, but if the nurture argument is invalid for other things (such as in the story of David, where the person was anatomically male at birth) then why should it be valid for this? David was raised in all regards to be like a girl but he intrinsically rebelled against it. So why are the trans women I've known not following suit?

Then the other question begs to be asked, why would anyone feel compelled to want to change their gender if not for purely physiological reasons? I can actually see many potential motivators. Females can be sought after; part of this is societal. In many context women are treated nicer and are expected to take more passive roles that may be deemed as beneficial. For instance, men are expected to ask women out and women are expected to wait to be asked out. For anyone who feels insecure this can feel like a tremendous advantage. Especially if one has been part of male dominated communities online, a female presense can receive quite a lot of undue positive attention, which could be why m2f appear much more common online than f2m, despite literature suggesting that they're evenly distributed.

Of course, I'm not saying that no one is transgender in such a way that they were born to be that way. I'm just skeptical in believing that EVERYONE who is transgender has a "birth defect" and not just a psychologically motivated condition. Especially after I've known a trans woman who later changed his mind and decided it was just a phase. If anything the "nature" argument fails to be very convincing when the only physical evidences of nature that are being made known to us are ones that work against the argument being made (ie, male genitalia). Of course, I tend to believe that nature and nurture both act as varying contributing factors, and think it's pretty silly to argue that one universally dominates over the other.

 

[Eniko]

But that's not the case, so why not? And why is it that in nearly every scenario the person has given off hints in their mannerisms that seemed distinctly male? Sometimes they admit to it, other times they don't

So hang on, let me get this one straight, because it amuses me:

Nearly every trans-woman you have met has had masculine mannerisms. Even though you say some don't admit to it, in which case you don't know if your reading was accurate at all. And even though some do admit to it, in which case you might just be attributing something you'd overlook in someone else simply because you have that kind of information available. And even though the ones that don't admit to it, and you don't get this read on, you would never notice, thus preserving your accuracy since you can't count the ones you miss completely?

Though what really bugs me about this one, being a bit of a tomboy and dating a woman who would definitely be considered butch by most people's standards, is that you're actually linking masculine mannerisms to maleness, which is just oh so very wrong, and actually something done to both women and trans-women that's really rather hurtful, like a few masculine qualities in a woman can invalidate their gender, or a few feminine ones in a man.

Also, possible causes for there being less trans-men than trans-women:

1. It is perfectly acceptable for a woman to wear pants. It's also somewhat acceptable for her to wear men's clothing. Not so much for men wearing skirts. Generally it is easier and more societally acceptable for a woman to approach a masculine role than the reverse. Even though women in that position already get enough flack for it, but just imagine how much a man would.

Which is basically to say that while a true FTM would still want to be a man, it is far more plausible for a trans-male to find a corner in semi-acceptable womanhood with comfortable enough gender roles to not have to go through the whole painful process as urgently than it is for a trans-female to find the same corner in male...hood? The proper word escapes me.

2. While trans-women will have a very functional and passable results from genital reassigment surgery, trans-men really can't say the same thing; medical science cannot yet create their parts functionally. Either it will look wrong and function sexually, or it will look right but probably not function.

I have it from a very reputable source (my gynecologist who used to do FTM surgeries) that most FTMs only get their uterus removed and the whole matter closed off, but are still more or less functionally female down there because there are no proper surgical avenues yet that satisfactorily solve their problem.

And I really should've known better than to keep looking at this thread, since it's been bothering me and I knew I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut and I really didn't want to wave the "I'm gay and know my LGBTs!" card around in this community, but... god people, sexuality, gender identity, femininity and masculinity and gender boundaries seriously aren't as cut and dry as some of you seem to want to believe.

Now bring on the "she's a programmer so I knew she had to be a dyke" comments, I guess. =_=
QUOTE
What do the female gamers play typically? What would they be interested in playing that really isn't very common since most games are targeted for guys? Or is it a big sausage party here?
Personally I love myself a good sandbox game, or RPGs, or most stuff with story. All sorts of stuff, really. Although right now I'm on a Left 4 Dead kick, since I love zombies and coop.

Oh right, there we have it. Most games are targeted for competative multiplayer, (nowadays, in the NES/SNES era this was different) and I really don't like to compete. Losing and having my nose rubbed in it isn't enjoyable, and winning and rubbing someone else's nose in it is only marginally more so, so yeah, I wish there were more coop "man vs AI" games. Thank god for Left 4 Dead, since I hadn't been able to scratch that itch for so long.

Most guys I've known were more interested in shooting up other live players than working together to shoot up AIs. Then again, I haven't played many shooters for years so back when I still tested that theory the AIs were honestly also just kind of crap.

 

[PoisonedV]

Lack of possibility have never stopped people from expressing desires.

(also i dont believe psychology is science and biology should reign supreme over it)

 

[TiffanyFerret]

Tiff, I was wondering if your brain has been scanned and you have personally shown positive for the "markers" determining gender you mention. It's one thing to say that this shows up in others, but it's something else to say that it shows up in you.

Over the years I have seen a lot of transgenders male to female online. I have seen very few female to male (I think I have not personally talked to any). Most of the online communities I've been part of have been predominantly male. In fact, I think that there may have been more m2f transgender (never have I met someone post op, although most mention wanting it) than females born with female anatomy. This is pretty peculiar, given that there must be at least 100 times as many non-trans women as trans women, meaning that all things considered equal I should be seeing less than 1/100th as many of them on these communities.

But that's not the case, so why not? And why is it that in nearly every scenario the person has given off hints in their mannerisms that seemed distinctly male? Sometimes they admit to it, other times they don't - the interesting cases are when someone realizes it long before they do admit to it, solely based on how they present themselves. Online, where looks and voice are concealed.

So why would trans women find typically male dominated communities much more appealing than non-trans women do? This could be a "nurture" argument, that they were raised to think like males, but if the nurture argument is invalid for other things (such as in the story of David, where the person was anatomically male at birth) then why should it be valid for this? David was raised in all regards to be like a girl but he intrinsically rebelled against it. So why are the trans women I've known not following suit?

Then the other question begs to be asked, why would anyone feel compelled to want to change their gender if not for purely physiological reasons? I can actually see many potential motivators. Females can be sought after; part of this is societal. In many context women are treated nicer and are expected to take more passive roles that may be deemed as beneficial. For instance, men are expected to ask women out and women are expected to wait to be asked out. For anyone who feels insecure this can feel like a tremendous advantage. Especially if one has been part of male dominated communities online, a female presense can receive quite a lot of undue positive attention, which could be why m2f appear much more common online than f2m, despite literature suggesting that they're evenly distributed.

Of course, I'm not saying that no one is transgender in such a way that they were born to be that way. I'm just skeptical in believing that EVERYONE who is transgender has a "birth defect" and not just a psychologically motivated condition. Especially after I've known a trans woman who later changed his mind and decided it was just a phase. If anything the "nature" argument fails to be very convincing when the only physical evidences of nature that are being made known to us are ones that work against the argument being made (ie, male genitalia). Of course, I tend to believe that nature and nurture both act as varying contributing factors, and think it's pretty silly to argue that one universally dominates over the other.

I think that is because transexuals are more likely to get just barely enough/barely not enough testosterone to be male/female, which makes mtf act more masculine, I've read the book "The female brain" it says the cause of tomboys is getting some testosterone, but not enough to make her male.A tomboy is still a girl and a fememine male is still a male, so don't tell me it is nothing more than wanting cultural pecieve advantages, in fact, therapists look out for so call transexuals that do it for percieved cultural advantages, and that basically makes it strongly possible that they aren't transexual.

Edit: Remember the brain's sex is defined by getting testosterone or not at a certain point before you are born, the same is true for the rest of the body,but those 2 are seperate sprays of testosterone if the fetus is male

Edit2: I find it very annoying that people that don't know much about something than claim they know more about something than people that have studied it for decades(not refering to myself)or at least have studied it some beyond just reading a few articles

Edit3: P.S. PoisonV, studying a brain is not psychology, it is biology

 

[mali]

Lack of possibility have never stopped people from expressing desires.

(also i dont believe psychology is science and biology should reign supreme over it)

Psychology is an(important) abstraction layer for the low-level stuff happening in your brain. It's trying to connect outside and inside influence resulting in certain behaviour. It's peferctly acceptible to call it science IMO

Edit:
It's like a pilot trying to land a plane looking on his displays that only show binary data. The data is the same but the pilot isn't able to understand what's happening. Our brain isn't able to understand stuff like that, so we have to create abstraction layers that translate data to something cave-monkey compatible.

 

[TiffanyFerret]

why there isn't as many ftm I don't know,they seem rarer everywhere, just not ones online on forums like this, prohaps more of them are in stealth mode, it is normally easier for ftm to pass as male than a mtf to pass as female,I also see this at support groups online and offline,I do know a few online actually.I've never met a ftm in rl as far as I know, but I have met a post-op transwoman in rl before.I've met several pre-op offline and I have many tgirl friends online some of which are post-op.Also I have a few tgirl friends that are from germany.

Edit:My problem isn't that I'm not a girl, but that I am a girl with a male body thats what propells me to fix the body

Edit2:it has been estimated that 1 in 500 people with male bodies are females as far s the brain goes

 

[sam fisher]

Edit: Remember the brain's sex is defined by getting testosterone or not at a certain point before you are born, the same is true for the rest of the body,but those 2 are seperate sprays of testosterone if the fetus is male

The bodies sex may be influenced by hormone levels but it is ridigly defined by the sex chromosomes I am afraid.

Edit: After talking I have refactored my opinions. I think that some of human sexual development will be controlled by the parents hormones but some will also be in some way governed by your own genetic sexual identity to a degree.

it has been estimated that 1 in 500 people with male bodies are females as far s the brain goes

Can you really draw a discrete line between male and female personalities? Alfred Kinsey, I think that was his name, had a theory where no people were 100% of one sexuality but varying degrees in between.

 

[quasist]

Some mutant god divided mankind to two genders so it's System could harvest more energy

 

[Exophase]

So hang on, let me get this one straight, because it amuses me:

Nearly every trans-woman you have met has had masculine mannerisms. Even though you say some don't admit to it, in which case you don't know if your reading was accurate at all. And even though some do admit to it, in which case you might just be attributing something you'd overlook in someone else simply because you have that kind of information available. And even though the ones that don't admit to it, and you don't get this read on, you would never notice, thus preserving your accuracy since you can't count the ones you miss completely?

... no, what I was saying was that only some admit to being transgender in the first place. And yet despite this, they have acted in a way that is more typical of males than females, which has made me suspect they're not fully natural females - and lo and behold, they weren't. How is this not indicative of anything?

Though what really bugs me about this one, being a bit of a tomboy and dating a woman who would definitely be considered butch by most people's standards, is that you're actually linking masculine mannerisms to maleness, which is just oh so very wrong, and actually something done to both women and trans-women that's really rather hurtful, like a few masculine qualities in a woman can invalidate their gender, or a few feminine ones in a man.

So wait, it's "oh so wrong" to say that there are correlations between someone's gender and how someone behaves? I think you need to step back and put your defensiveness in check because you're reading something much different than what I'm saying. There are trends that will suggest that a member of one gender is much more likely to exhibit several behavioral, emotional, personality traits - they're just that, trends. Nowhere have I ever said that anyone is "less" anything for not fulfilling the status quo but if you deny that gender differences tend to manifest in ways beyond physical differences then you're kidding yourself. And if you find this "hurtful" then you have serious issues you need to work out.

Think about what you're saying. If mental/personality traits have no bearing on gender then there's no legitimacy to transgendered individuals at all.

1. It is perfectly acceptable for a woman to wear pants. It's also somewhat acceptable for her to wear men's clothing. Not so much for men wearing skirts. Generally it is easier and more societally acceptable for a woman to approach a masculine role than the reverse. Even though women in that position already get enough flack for it, but just imagine how much a man would.

Which is basically to say that while a true FTM would still want to be a man, it is far more plausible for a trans-male to find a corner in semi-acceptable womanhood with comfortable enough gender roles to not have to go through the whole painful process as urgently than it is for a trans-female to find the same corner in male...hood? The proper word escapes me.

2. While trans-women will have a very functional and passable results from genital reassigment surgery, trans-men really can't say the same thing; medical science cannot yet create their parts functionally. Either it will look wrong and function sexually, or it will look right but probably not function.

I have it from a very reputable source (my gynecologist who used to do FTM surgeries) that most FTMs only get their uterus removed and the whole matter closed off, but are still more or less functionally female down there because there are no proper surgical avenues yet that satisfactorily solve their problem.

None of this is relevant to what I said, which is that I have cited far more mtf than ftm on male dominated internet communities, those places where no one sees what clothes you wear or how you look or sexually function. Logic would dictate that if transgenders are always entirely and purely representative of the genders they identify themselves by then you'd see far more ftm than mtf, so why the opposite?

And I really should've known better than to keep looking at this thread, since it's been bothering me and I knew I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut and I really didn't want to wave the "I'm gay and know my LGBTs!" card around in this community, but... god people, sexuality, gender identity, femininity and masculinity and gender boundaries seriously aren't as cut and dry as some of you seem to want to believe.

Yeah, come to think of it, how does being a lesbian make you an authority on transgender?

Now bring on the "she's a programmer so I knew she had to be a dyke" comments, I guess. =_=

Actually, I have yet to see any correlation between lesbians and programming. As far as women and programming go, it's a western cultural thing. Go to India or China and you won't see it.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't correlating factors for why this is the case...

Most guys I've known were more interested in shooting up other live players than working together to shoot up AIs. Then again, I haven't played many shooters for years so back when I still tested that theory the AIs were honestly also just kind of crap.

Wait, what? So you're allowed to assign gender traits, and negative ones at that?

You're a hypocrite.

I think that is because transexuals are more likely to get just barely enough/barely not enough testosterone to be male/female, which makes mtf act more masculine, I've read the book "The female brain" it says the cause of tomboys is getting some testosterone, but not enough to make her male.A tomboy is still a girl and a fememine male is still a male, so don't tell me it is nothing more than wanting cultural pecieve advantages, in fact, therapists look out for so call transexuals that do it for percieved cultural advantages, and that basically makes it strongly possible that they aren't transexual.

Honestly, this is the conclusion I would have drawn, that mtf have the potential to be some amount (ranging anywhere) more male-like than non-transgender females. But I figured it would have come off as offensive, so thanks for saying it for me instead :B

As far as wanting advantages goes, all I could ever really even suggest is that it applies to some transgender (or maybe, people claiming to be who aren't really?). I'd never think that it applies to all. Well, you basically said that as well.

The only problem is that it can be difficult to determine which category one belongs to.. I'm sure many of these fake transsexuals you mention really do believe it on some level.

 

[Eniko]

I've decided to let this thread be, since obviously a few things are impairing my objectivity, and I apologize for that. (one of them being that as I was writing my last post a good friend of mine was having her GRS)

Most guys I've known were more interested in shooting up other live players than working together to shoot up AIs. Then again, I haven't played many shooters for years so back when I still tested that theory the AIs were honestly also just kind of crap.

Wait, what? So you're allowed to assign gender traits, and negative ones at that?

You're a hypocrite.
This, however, I feel no need to leave be. Exactly where am I assigning gender traits here? By saying most guys I've known were more interested in shooting up live players? That's what you call a statement of fact, since it's just plain true unless you have some magical power that lets you go back in time and change history. Now, if I were to extrapolate that into saying "most guys are more interested in shooting up live players" you might have a point.

Might have a point because you're the one who's implying competitiveness is a negative trait. I never said that, and I would argue that it isn't a negative trait at all, so even if I did use my anecdote as evidence for assigning gender traits (which I'm not) I wouldn't be assigning a negative one at all, just a different one from my preference. Not to mention that even if those two things were true (which they are not) I follow up saying there were mitigating circumstances; e.g. the AI was lame and who wants to gang up on dumb bots? But hey, by all means, keep putting words in my mouth.

And thanks for the parting shot, even though it adds nothing to your point and is thus solely there as a personal attack. If you're going to attack me on something, at least have the decency to attack me on points I've actually made, thanks. That part of your reply was just a cheap shot and you know it.

 

[mali]

Off topic in off topic, but..
I think that kind of male aggressiveness is a privilege of youth. The older you get, the more you switch to coop mode in general. Humans are slaves to their hormones throughout their lives and that kind of self awareness and control some people think they have, are illusions. The more you think about that, the better. From a philosophical standpoint, gender specific thinking is a waste of time.

 

[PoisonedV]

I've decided to let this thread be, since obviously a few things are impairing my objectivity, and I apologize for that. (one of them being that as I was writing my last post a good friend of mine was having her GRS)

Most guys I've known were more interested in shooting up other live players than working together to shoot up AIs. Then again, I haven't played many shooters for years so back when I still tested that theory the AIs were honestly also just kind of crap.

Wait, what? So you're allowed to assign gender traits, and negative ones at that?

You're a hypocrite.
And thanks for the parting shot, even though it adds nothing to your point and is thus solely there as a personal attack. If you're going to attack me on something, at least have the decency to attack me on points I've actually made, thanks. That part of your reply was just a cheap shot and you know it.

Take note, xkcd fans, that post is true irony

 

[Nova]

Hah. I knew we'd be unable to talk about this civilly. Reported for closure.

 

[WarmFluffyUK]

Closed as it's getting too close to the flames.