DragonBox Coding Competition - open or closed source poll

[Ziz]

Good evening,


I think, most of you read this:


http://boards.openpa...ion-rules-draft


A big problem seems to be the (now annulled) rule, that every entry have to be open source.


There were three "camps" of pro-open-source, pro-closed-source and a some I-dont-mind.


There were even some graphics about the hypothetical entries count for both scenarios.


I know, many users of software like to use open software, but this is in fact a question, that mostly affects the developers.


So this is a poll for all the developers, who will probably participate in this competition.


What do you think?


Feel free to discuss, too.

 

[WizardStan]

Can't answer until EvilDragon answers my question: is the intention of the contest to get more interesting software, or is it actually a direct promotion of open source consoles themselves?

 

[Ziz]

I think, you have to find your own intention to participate at this competition.


It seems to be, that just some users said "Hey, a new competition would be great. ED, what do you think? Can you spend prices?"


And ED said "Eeyup." And so Equestria this competition was made.

 

[crow_riot]

not that i really think i've got the time to participate, but IF i'll be using paperwars codebase which i can't release for various reasons.

 

[_wb_]

As I stated before, I will not participate in the contest if the "open source" rule is dropped. I'm not sure if that's an option in this poll. Is this what option 3 means?


For maximal clarity, this is my position:


I will release sources anyway (e.g. by uploading PNDs with sources included to the repo, like I always do). I will not participate in the contest if closed-source entries are allowed to win prizes.

 

[Ziz]

As I stated before, I will not participate in the contest if the "open source" rule is dropped. I'm not sure if that's an option in this poll. Is this what option 3 means?

Yes, I created it with you in mind.

 

[Ziz]

not that i really think i've got the time to participate, but IF i'll be using paperwars codebase which i can't release for various reasons.

So, if I look at your choice in the poll, it even depends on the rule, with WHAT you participate? E.g. if closed source is allowed, you participate closed source with something based on the paper wars code, but if your code has to be open you participate with something else (new?)?


However, I didn't thought about such a choice... ^^

 

[WizardStan]

It seems to be, that just some users said "Hey, a new competition would be great. ED, what do you think? Can you spend prices?"


And ED said "Eeyup." And so Equestria this competition was made.

If it's just a contest for contest sake then that is an answer: it was not intended to promote the open source based consoles and therefore I have no objection. But again, only EvilDragon can answer that.

 

[crow_riot]

not that i really think i've got the time to participate, but IF i'll be using paperwars codebase which i can't release for various reasons.

So, if I look at your choice in the poll, it even depends on the rule, with WHAT you participate? E.g. if closed source is allowed, you participate closed source with something based on the paper wars code, but if your code has to be open you participate with something else (new?)?


However, I didn't thought about such a choice... ^^

Well I first ticked the last option then the second, as i'm unsure what matches best. I guess the last one ... dunno probably just tired and can't get the right choice :huh:

 

[erico]

I may participate with both open and close...I´m not too found of enforcing either open or closed, unless the open turns to be some kind of theme.

 

[skeezix]

I am not sure I have time, but assuming I do for point of interest sake --


I don't generally join compos where rules about open/closed source are part of it; they generally have no sense being in the rules. I don't do compos where language is specified, or coding style, or other silly things. ("You have to code in C, and you braces on their own line, and have comments above each brace-block", that sort of bullshit. (yes, it does happen,. when the guidelines get that anal )


If its a compo about open source software or promoting that, then fine, of course it makes sense.. but if its about interesting software, then putting a restriction on language of implementation is just as silly as requiring the code to be open or not. Sometimes it is not practical or feasible to release the code; sometimes it is. It should be up to the developer and his circumstances.


I understand wb and such are making a stance, so okay; but in general, myself, I'm not for anyone being told what to do or foisting someone elses agenda onto them; open/closed, thats the devs business, not the compos business


But for my part, I'm working on two games right now (both too big for me to be working on, but what the heck , and components of those could be used for other commercial projects, and in general open source and commercial don't go well together, so I'm not going to let them out of the bag code wise. ie: if they were small little one off games, sure, I'd OSS them like most of my stuff. but if I've spend hundreds of hours on some components, I'm keeping them in the bag for now (I typical open source my stuff later, if it starts life closed source, but depends on any encumbrances.. some of my games have had licensing deals where I've licensed out bits and can't republish the code). If the compo says 'they must be open source', thats too authoritarian for me, and I take a pass.


jeff

 

[_wb_]

I agree that arbitrary rules like on how to comment your code are bullshit.


There have to be some boundaries on what a compo is about though. E.g. ED is selling what he calls "OpenSource Handhelds" so it makes sense to restrict the scope of the compo to Open Source software that runs on those handhelds. Suppose someone wants to enter a Wii game or Xbox 360 game to this compo. Would you also consider the compo rules to be "too authoritarian" if they would disallow such entries? Isn't it the devs business what platform they write software for?


I don't agree with you that "open source" or "closed source" is as arbitrary a distinction as choice of programming language or style. There are clear community benefits to having software that is open source instead of closed source, while I don't think it makes a big difference whether you are coding in C or Python, and whether or not you put the curly braces on a new line or not. So I agree that restricting the language or coding style would be silly, but I disagree that restricting the license to be OSS is "just as silly".


So yes, of course it is the devs business how to license something or what platform to make software for, but it _is_ the compo's business to define the rules of the compo. And there's nothing authoritarian about that: it's ED's money, he can use it to promote whatever he feels like promoting. And my humble suggestion to him is to promote Open Source Software (or rather Free Software, but let's not have that discussion now), not just "any" software.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

I haven't voted, as the likelihood of me entering is more driven by factors outside of the source code license. However I think it is a shame that we can't receive entries from both _wb_ and sheezix as they have both contributed to the community and shown themselves to be helpful developers for the Pandora.

 

[ExquisiteCorpse]

Open sourcing the code is over the top however open source is more in spirit of the project.


However - it should not be a requirement.


The amount of work going in to create a game with little return means we are doing it for fun. Thus it should be a gentlemans decision and not an arbitrary rule.

 

[_wb_]

I want to clarify that I'm not trying to force things by taking the position I'm taking. If I don't participate in the contest, I will still keep creating stuff and put it on the repo. I also assume that people who want to contribute closed-source stuff will do that regardless of whether there's a contest or not. So at least for me, the contest rules will not make a big difference as to whether or not I will keep contributing stuff to the community. It's just that I do want to support an Open Source contest by participating in it, and I don't particularly feel like supporting a non-Open Source contest in that way.


So the question remains: do we (or does ED) want to create a contest to promote Open Source software for those Open Handhelds, or do we need a contest to promote any kind of software for those Open Handhelds? Does it even have to be gratis software, or can it also be commercial software (presumably with free copies, or maybe reduced demo versions for the judges)? With or without DRM? In my mind, if you consider "Open Source" to be an arbitrary or silly rule, then "gratis" and "DRM-free" are also arbitrary or silly rules.

 

[Ziz]

I took the risk of loosing all given votes (yes, some boards are very shitty -_- ) and added a fifth option inspired by _wb_ and quartercast.


However: The votes are still there (*yay*) and now you have also the option "I will participate and release source, but only if closed source is also allowed".


Feel free to change your vote or to give me other options I should add.

 

[ExquisiteCorpse]

I want to clarify that I'm not trying to force things by taking the position I'm taking.

That's exactly what you're doing

"DRM-free" are also arbitrary or silly rules.

That's a very different conversation.


Essentially you've just gone on a Stallman rant. Why not rant at the Open Pandora which has closed sourced binary blobs?

 

[elwing]

it seems to me that it should be up to the developer to choose if he open source or not his work and up to the compo team to decide if they accept closed source material. but if closed source are admitted the compo should refuse closed source that violate GPL or whatever licence that require them to open source their application...

 

[Miner49er]

Yeah, I'm not sure if I will release the code for my current project. I have spent many many hours on it and want to decide based on other factors whether or not to release it or not. I mean, I want to but it would be pee me off if somebody ended up making money out of it!


I released the source for LemmingsSDL...I doubt many people have looked at it!

 

[_wb_]

I want to clarify that I'm not trying to force things by taking the position I'm taking.

That's exactly what you're doing

No it's not. It would be if I would say: "make it open source or I'll ragequit the Pandora scene". I just said explicitly that that is not going to happen, and that the compo rules will not have an effect on my intentions to contribute software.

"DRM-free" are also arbitrary or silly rules.

That's a very different conversation.

Why? Just like open source vs closed source, it's the dev's decision, so if you think the compo rules should not restrict the dev's choices, why would a rule that disallows DRM be different from a rule that disallows closed-source?

Essentially you've just gone on a Stallman rant. Why not rant at the Open Pandora which has closed sourced binary blobs?

Because this is a thread about the DragonBox Coding Competition.

Yeah, I'm not sure if I will release the code for my current project. I have spent many many hours on it and want to decide based on other factors whether or not to release it or not. I mean, I want to but it would be pee me off if somebody ended up making money out of it!

If you're worried about somebody else making money out of your work, then I suggest using a license like the GPL and not something more permissive like just putting the source in the public domain. The GPL doesn't make it impossible for somebody else to sell your stuff, but at least you get whatever further work they did on it, and it will be hard for them to sell many copies since they are required to make it available for free too (including sources).