Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
So we don't really need a qwerty keyboard at all, just 1 normal key and 10 modifiers to cater to all your input needs...
-Neelix
-Neelix
The last proposed designs from ED, _wb_, ible and grench look fine, except there is no possibility to quickly alter the states of the wireless connections, one button should suffice for this (either by just toggeling through all combinations from "all off" to "all on" or the more clever version Grench proposed).
If you want a dedicated button for that, you can let USR1 or USR2 do that. I personally don't want a quick wifi toggle. My laptop has one, and all I 'use' it for is... accidental disconnects.
On a serious note : as a Froggy myself, I think we can live with only dead keys. What we need as dead keys for common French is : " ´ ", " ` ", " ¸ ", " ¨ " and " ^ ".
Please note that AZERTY is not a good indicator for French language as it is completely flawed. As a Windows user, I have to thank Microsoft for at least one thing : the Alt+Unicode.
This is the only way I know of to get Ç and É on this layout, because we can't just shift the letter as it's getting us the numbers. And we only get " ` ", " ¨ " and " ^ " as dead letters (the two latter ones being less commonly used).
It's even more worrying as some people actually believe that because of this fact, capital letters in typed French shouldn't be accentuated.
So don't worry about giving us dedicated letters, just give us dead diacritics and we'll do fine, as we've been through way worse.
If you thank Microsoft for Alt+number codes, then you should certainly thank *nix for the Compose key, which is much easier (Compose , C for Ç for example).
Layout I'm referring to: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6cba5957453accdc87e90713d2aa5f35
Let's discuss dead diacritics. It is a good mechanism, since it is more efficient than Compose sequences (two thumb presses instead of three). It is less efficient than a direct precomposed character though (one thumb press).
Acute ´
For French you don't really need dead acute, just éÉ suffices (and by having é on Fn+Q, obviously that implies that Shift+Fn+Q does É). It is good to have this as a special key too, because é is very common in French. Also in several other languages and in many loan words like "café" it is used. So having a dedicated éÉ is useful. Still, there is also a dead acute on Fn+R, because it is essential for a.o. Spanish, which puts acutes on all vowels. There are also Eastern European languages that put acutes on consonants, e.g. the Polish ć ń ś ź.
Grave `
For French you need à and è commonly, and ù in the word "où" (where), to distinguish it from the word "ou" (or). In most other languages (notable exception: Italian), à and è are also the most commonly used ones. I suggest to not have an explicitly labeled dead grave and to have Fn+B produce a backtick (`) immediately. However, if you need other graves than à and è, you could let Fn+B be dead grave (so you need to type Fn+B followed by space to get a backtick symbol). For Italians that makes sense. If you only rarely need other graves (e.g. French, which needs ù every now and then for the word "où"), then Compose is probably good enough. Also, Fn+Shift+B could be a dead grave by default, for those 'in the know'.
Diaeresis / Umlaut ¨
For German you need äöü. The ä and ö are also used in Swedish and Finnish. They are pretty common letters (especially in the Scandinavian languages), so having them available directly (in one thumb press) is practical. Other languages (e.g. French, Dutch) also need ë and ï, though typically not frequently. The Compose method (e.g. Compose " e for ë) is good enough. Also, Fn+" (so Fn+Shift+') could be mapped to dead umlaut by default, for those 'in the know'.
Circumflex ˆ
Quite important for French and several other languages. Fn+T is a dead circumflex.
Cedilla ¸
Mostly needed for the French and Portuguese çÇ. In Turkish you also need şŞ, and the Eastern European ogonek ąĄęĘ could also be considered as a sort of dead diacritic. However, I think it suffices to have just the çÇ.
Tilde ~
Spanish needs ñÑ, Portuguese needs ãÃõÕ. I suggest to let Shift+~ be a dead tilde by default (Fn+Shift+H), for those 'in the know'. Those who frequently need tildes (Iberians and Latin Americans) can either let ~ be dead by default, or directly map Fn+N to ñÑ (for Spanish) or remap öä to õã (for Portuguese).
Caron ˇ
This one is heavily used in Eastern European languages, mostly for čČ šŠ žŽ. I suggest to let Shift+Fn+C and Fn+< (Shift+Fn+,) map to dead caron, for those 'in the know'. The others can use the standard Compose sequences: Compose C [letter] and Compose < [letter].
Stroke /
Mostly used in the Danish/Norwegian ø Ø and the Polish ł Ł (but also for đ Đ and ħ Ħ). Those who need it, will probably want to map the letters they need as precomposed direct letters somewhere. I propose to let Shift+/ (so Fn+Shift+.) be dead stroke, for those 'in the know'.
Overdot
Mostly used in Eastern European languages, e.g. Polish żŻ and Lithuanian ėĖ. Also dotless i (ıİ) is often grouped with this. I don't think a dead diacritic is useful here. Compose will have to do. Those who need it, will probably want to map the letters as precomposed direct letters (e.g. using the AltGr layer, which is still completely available).
Macron ¯
Mostly used in Eastern European languages (in particular, Baltic languages) and in transcriptions of non-Latin languages. The Compose method (Compose - [letter]) will have to do, especially since dash (-) is a primary key so it's a relatively easy Compose sequence.
Ring °
Only needed for the Scandinavian åÅ and the Czech ůŮ. Does not really make sense to make a dead diacritic for this. We could make Shift+° (so Fn+Shift+K) a dead ring.
Double acute (Hungarumlaut) ˝
Only needed for the Hungarian őŐ űŰ. Hungarians also need öÖ üÜ, so remapping those is not an option for them. I propose to let the dead acute on Fn+R turn öü into őű.
Breve ˘
Mostly needed for the Turkish ğĞ and the Romanian ăĂ. Not useful to have as a dead diacritic. Turkish and Romanian will have to do specific remappings anyway (e.g. on the AltGr layer).So I think we have it all covered in terms of dead diacritics.
Just like Shift+Fn+1 will be Shift-F1 and Shift+Fn+J will be capital Ü, we could make Shift+Fn+H a dead tilde by default.You can do Fn+Shift+Key combinations, I just don't want to print them somewhere, as it will get too complicated.
Well, the later we submit, the more delay we get. So we should try to have everything finished next Monday.Not much time left before the layout has to be submitted to the production company?
That's all only on schematics.Actually, it is quite common and I will bet you have seen it before and didn't think twice about it.That's totally uncommon, and I've never seen that before.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_US-International.svg
Notice the symbols on the 1 key and the 4 key and the = key and the \ key.
Two symbols in white. The one on top is the shifted version.
Two symbols in alternate (blue). The one on top is the shifted version.
It is an entirely consistent, entirely understandable, internationally used convention.
For more examples, just browse down the list of international keyboards here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltGr_key
As mentioned: Don't forget the actual size of the key!Again, not re-submitting for consideration, but rather providing examples for us to learn from if there is anything there to learn. It was a lot of work designing those - but it was fun too.
So far, I've only changed the initial layout I had with suggestion which were properly explained. There's not a single key I changed randomly (if there are, please show that to me).I think what he requested was some sort of democratic solution, money is not it, to his aim he brought something more important, opinons. It should be easy to explain decisions, and they should stop at some point, stirring the pot of random for a period of time does not make anything balanced. Unless it is random, why does it keep changing?
Actually, the top row is not really comfortable to use, which is why it shouldn't be used for common keys but only for special stuff you only need ocassionally (like hardware toggles, etc.)Is it really necessary to have "Pause" in such a prominent position? (I talk about the layouts where its left of the USR1 key)
I have never even used that key and my lenovo laptop doesn't even have it. The german wikipedia article says it is more or less a relic and not really used anymore. Wouldn't it make more sense to have Esc there or something?
I haven't seen a layout yet with a chordable RSuper (I think I'm the only one who has suggested to have an RSuper at all, but it would be the lid, so not really usable as a modifier).You must have skipped over the Nth combinations post I made earlier. Since LShift is distinguishable from RShift (and so on), we actually have a boatload to the Ston power of potential functions per key.Absolutely. Combine Control and/or Alt with this button you speak of for even more of this toggling goodness.I totally see having the brightness (both screen and keyboard) being controlled by a single button fitting into ANY layout design.The more of these enhancements the better. Totally see this fitting into ED's current layout design.That's an essential function that everyone should understand without reading instructions, so we should not 'hide' it behind an Fn+Shift combination.
If the brightness would cycle back to off after going to max, then those who wouldn't know about Shift for decreasing brightness would still be able to use it completely. Knowing about Shift would just enhance it...
Normal Key = 1
LShift = *2
RShift = *2
LCtrl = *2
RCtrl = *2
LAlt = *2
RAlt(AltGr) = *2
LFn = *2
RFn = *2
LSuper = *2
RSuper = *2
That works out to 1*2^10 = 1024 actual, not hypothetical, permutations that can be applied to every non-modifier key.
This is why one handed chording keyboards exist.So we don't really need a qwerty keyboard at all, just 1 normal key and 10 modifiers to cater to all your input needs...
-Neelix
[...]
So far, I've only changed the initial layout I had with suggestion which were properly explained. There's not a single key I changed randomly (if there are, please show that to me).I think what he requested was some sort of democratic solution, money is not it, to his aim he brought something more important, opinons. It should be easy to explain decisions, and they should stop at some point, stirring the pot of random for a period of time does not make anything balanced. Unless it is random, why does it keep changing?
I also don't have any problems making a final poll about the layout once ours here has finished (and we're pretty close with that, I guess).
Everyone who wants to have his or a keyboard layout he likes included in the official poll should send me a short explanation of the advantages of this layout.
Do this until Thursday. I'll make the poll on Friday and we'll see what the community prefers.
Okay?
If you think it's ok, I'd like to submit it to your poll. Danke sehr!EvilDragon, starting from your last posted layout, I rearranged Meta symbols on keys Q, Y, U, I, O, L, B, N, M to make it both more consistent and more accessible for everyone.
Removed "è" and "à" ("`" + character), "é" and "ú" ("'" + character), and "ç" ("," + character), since all of these can be written with either "Compose" --> immediate symbol --> character, or "Compose" --> immediate Meta symbol (just keep pressing "Meta" and it's also immediate) --> character. The same can be used for other combinations like the spanish í, ó or ñ. For the same reason, "ä", "ö" and "ü" are kept, since the sequence would have been "Compose" --> """ --> character, which would mean "Meta"+"Space" --> "Shift"+"'" --> character: complex enough to try to avoid. I know: "What about circumflex or whatever other more exotic combinations? Those are also tough!" Yes, but we can't have everything, and German has a tiny bit more priority.
~ Moved "ß" (scharfes S) to "B". "Feels" better, since it can be used as beta, if you are not a purist
~ Moved "ü" on "I", providing a more natural position for germans above "ö" and "ä".
~ Moved "°" (degree) to "O" to make space for consecutive "«" and "»" (see later). Also, it's a tiny little "O". It fits there.
~ Moved "CpsLck" to "Q", to be able to quickly toggle it with 2 thumbs, to make space for a well located "µ" (see later), and because it could be remembered as "Qaps Lock" (can't do that on "M").
+ Added "µ" (Mu, Micro) on "M", useful for writing papers and technology related stuff.
+ Added "¬" (negator, NOT operator) on "N", for science (really, for papers), for ¬¬' , and.. Why NOT?! (Badum Tsss)
+ Added "£" (Pound) on "L", like the "€" on "E", covering the 3 probably most used currencies, at least for potential buyers. It's quite useful in the Europe area.
+ Added "«" and "»" (quotes) at "Y" and "U", because it's very useful for people who write a lot, and I hear people wrote whole books on a Pandora... Hats off.
I also corrected the double "ü" and put an "ä" on "K", but I didn't count it as a change since you already said it was a small typing error.
What do you think?
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a2b2eebd6e4b271a4fcac5b7c1267e16
Not always, no. In fact, most keyboards claiming to be "US International" rarely have ANYTHING pictured.That's all only on schematics.
But when I google for pictures of these keyboards, they simply don't have shifted Fn-layers printed there.
Yes, I haven't seen that, thanks.Maybe it was overseen, but I have a suggestion based on your latest design which I think is useful, consistent and fair with the exception on the german Umlaute. I tried to develop the existing layout, so it is basically your "no-deadkeys keyboard with compose for deadkey combinations", but a bit changed to accomodate more characters and be a bit more just to all languages (again: except for german, which gets prioritized a bit as you were asking for).
Bottom left corner, shifting "," and "." like on the standard US keyboard.Yes, I haven't seen that, thanks.Maybe it was overseen, but I have a suggestion based on your latest design which I think is useful, consistent and fair with the exception on the german Umlaute. I tried to develop the existing layout, so it is basically your "no-deadkeys keyboard with compose for deadkey combinations", but a bit changed to accomodate more characters and be a bit more just to all languages (again: except for german, which gets prioritized a bit as you were asking for).
On a quick glance, I didn't find < or >, where is that?
Do the proposed little modifications to your layout make sense and are you considering including them as "collaborative effort", or would you prefer for me to PM you the layout and an short description as an extra poll entry?Important information!
As I mentioned before in this thread, I'm perfectly fine if we do a final poll with the keyboard layouts you think would be best.
I will do this official poll on Thursday evening and end it on Monday.
If you want your layout to participate or have a layout you love and want it to show, please send me a PM with the link to the layout and a SHORT (4 - 5 lines max) information what the advantages of your layout are, why you think it would be the best one.
I'll add our collaborative effort from here myself as well
Although I agree with you on that, I can also understand his wanting to poll.Not a big fan of deciding Keyboard layout based on popularity through a poll.
Same risk as a referendum, people voting on stuff they don't understand.
Evildragon should just pick one that aligns best with his own vision.
Working your way through the taskbar will probably include more then one input device and is a lot more cumbersome. I don't see why this should be made a lot more easy and efficient, unless - of course - you think that this button is needed for something more important.I don't mind toggling my wifi from the task-bar, which presumably is where a little WiFi icon will sit. i'd prefer this rather than a dedicated WiFi button, since it's not too hard to get to (and is where people would expect it), and saves us a button.
What is your opinion on _wb_s idea ?:Yes, I was planning to have the USR-Buttons setup to something like this per default.
You can do Fn+Shift+Key combinations, I just don't want to print them somewhere, as it will get too complicated.
It sound a lot more intuitive then grenchs idea, but adds another "layer" which may get confusing (and kind of a pity to maintain)I would personally prefer to make USR1 a "Hardware modifier", which can be used to view and toggle the status of all kinds of things: USR1+W for wifi toggle, USR1+M for mobile data, USR1+U for USB, USR1+H for HDMI, USR1+G for GPS, USR1+R for rumble, and so on.
Great enhancementIf the brightness would cycle back to off after going to max, then those who wouldn't know about Shift for decreasing brightness would still be able to use it completely. Knowing about Shift would just enhance it...
I too think that too many steps will just anoy people (maybe and odd number with 50% brightness "in the middle"), but I am not sure equidistant "steps" are optimal.And for that setup we don't need 100 levels of brightness. Personally, I would function quite fine with 5 or maybe 6.
Off
Minimum back light on.
33%
66%
90%
Max
Is 5 too few? Maybe. However, 10 is IMHO too many. Maybe 6 is about right? That would still be manageable with it cycling over the top to off.
Do I just not get the irony, or is that an aspirant for the stupidest comment of the year ?Well, I don't see a donator banner underneath your picture so you must really feel this way.I don't like where this is going (no Fn+Shift labels where useful, F-keys on numbers, numbers on primary keys, too many labels, random placement of symbols, too many keys wasted on hardware control, double width space, etc.). I know that none of this is going to change. Could you please make a poll where I can vote 'It sucks', then it would at least feel democratic or something
Please stick to that for the your final placement of [ESC]Actually, the top row is not really comfortable to use, which is why it shouldn't be used for common keys but only for special stuff you only need ocassionally (like hardware toggles, etc.)
A poll probably won't do much good but it can't hurt either (except for EDs amount of sleepy time, I guess)Not a big fan of deciding Keyboard layout based on popularity through a poll.
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