Current Keyboard Layout

[rygD]

Not really an important thing but will there be some kind of re-mapping option? I want to try some linux games with exagear and left clicking with the L1 or L2 button would be easier than clicking with nubs.

Something like AB mouse (using A and B buttons for the mouse on the Pandora) will probably appear pretty quickly, or can be requested.

 

[comradekingu]

People having pandoras in other countries than the anglo ones, doesnt mean they type their languages on it, lets keep that in mind. Unless that works, its to those people, not a laptop.

My prediction:

Something that looks like a real keyboard, will sell more devices and be better for english people alone than any extras from provisions made to incorporate other languages half-way.

Advanced international users can type extra letters blindly, users sufficiently advanced to have use for them, can learn where <> [ ] { } is moved.

So it fails for non-english novices, but you could bring in the germans again by doing a keymat.

A german keymat works for medium novices from other nations.

So you are left failing for beginner novices from nations that werent ever in the running to begin with. And they are at the option of coughing up the money if their alphabet fits.

So why is a large target demographic important? Because photographers, people wanting something built in europe and not by slaves, audio-nerds, people who dont want to be spied upon, people that like good design, groups of people that arent by neccecity geeks. You can't expect the difference to fly with them.

Typing is important, a device that is by all other means outdated in 2020+ will still work as a typing device, that never gets old.

 

[FaeMinx]

Bon Jo who?


I listen to the music of the spheres, the sound of creation imperceptible to physical ears... And on a mundane level I'm rather partial to Celtic and transcendental new age style compositions.


P.s. Now while we want the Pyra to be as novice friendly as possible, there is a line below which someone will simply not be suited for the Pyra, because, yes... It actually *will* be too technical for them, regardless what is printed on the keys. These are the people you claim its so important to cater to under the same guise of 'having things your way'.


These people will be wasting their money by buying a Pyra. They won't even be concidering it. Your argument is a non argument.


Who did you test your theories on? These people?


Under those circumstances, your conclusions are to be expected.


Non argument.


Putting symbols in non standard places will force people to search for them. Yes, they will.


Next time, they will look again to remind themselves.


And probably a few times more, untill the new information is imprinted.


And then they will be content and happy.


And you will still be frustrated.


I appologize for frustrating you, but I was compelled to.

 

[Neelix]

Do you want only the pandora and mobile keyboard market? 
Because everywhere else, a button marked Fn, does not type symbols. It is never used for a reason other than having too few keys. And no significant group has used Fn-types-symbols keyboards more than real ones.

So call it  something else!  (personally I'm in favour of "Sym")   Honestly though, the name is completely irrelevant because the colour code indicates what modifier to press to obtain those symbols.   Colour coding is a concept almost everyone grows up with...  It's not like it's even something specific to the computer industry.  It's something we learn in early childhood that stays with us.

It being on laptops is not equivalent to people knowing how to use it. AltGr however, you need to type @, which people know how to do. (and we already imply here that there are too few keys to only have shift as per US layout, and that re-arranging things so you would only need shift for language is out of question)

@ is almost certain to be on the primary shifted layer, no Alt-GR required there.   Also, because there can only be one Alt-gr key it is the modifier least suited to be the symbol layer modifier.

Something that looks like a real keyboard, will sell more devices and be better for english people than any provisions made to incorporate other languages half-way.

If it has the letters laid out in the QWERTY layout  with an obvious space bar and a row of number keys on top, that's enough for anyone familiar with a QWERTY keyboard to to recognise it as a QWERTY keyboard.   The specific locations of the rest of the symbols are pretty much irrelevant to recognition.

The Pyra keyboard can never look like a "real" keyboard because it's physically too small and doesn't have enough keys, and it isn't possible to fix that by adjusting the layout.

-Neelix

 

[Kev2442]

living in a dream by bon jovi

Bon Jo who?

Actually, it's Bon Jovi - Livin' On A Prayer.

On a serious note : as a Froggy myself, I think we can live with only dead keys. What we need as dead keys for common French is : " ´ ", " ` ", " ¸ ", " ¨ " and " ^ ".

Please note that AZERTY is not a good indicator for French language as it is completely flawed. As a Windows user, I have to thank Microsoft for at least one thing : the Alt+Unicode.

This is the only way I know of to get Ç and É on this layout, because we can't just shift the letter as it's getting us the numbers. And we only get " ` ", " ¨ " and " ^ " as dead letters (the two latter ones being less commonly used).

It's even more worrying as some people actually believe that because of this fact, capital letters in typed French shouldn't be accentuated.

So don't worry about giving us dedicated letters, just give us dead diacritics and we'll do fine, as we've been through way worse.

 

[comradekingu]

Neelix: That colour relates to function, on a keyboard, isnt evident, because regular keyboards aren't made that way, they use position. For the purpose of colour-coding, by all means, colour-code shift and altGr if that is what it takes. I dont see how you add anything by doing that, but it does look ugly for the people that care.
 
All things arranged QWERTY are not equal, nor are they seen as such.
 
When you say "almost certain", where, other than the US layout, (which uses only shift) does @ not occur on AltGr?
Because its not:
Russia Germany Turkey France Italia Spain Ukraine Poland Arabian Danes Swedish Finland or  Norway
We could check others, but thats the premise im working on.
 
Kev2442: I imagined semi-dedicated letters, that could be shifted to produce big letters, was a lot better of an idea than just the small ones.

Spoiler

There is full support on the language-layer for french, you could use that for everything, or dead-keys.

Ctrl+alt to invoke dead-keys, (or a variation of shift+  ctrl+ and ctrl+shift+ for french) select+ for language layer

french letter               diactric                       where it is

àùè                      ` (grave accent)                      7
é                           ' (apostrophe)                         5
âîêûô                      ^ (circumflex)                       6
ëïüÿ                        : (colon)                          [.:/] or [ [{ ]
ç                            , (comma)                            [,;_]

œ                                                            language layer+q
æ                                                            language layer+l

(éèçà                                                                  language layer+2490)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/94827c9c550351388f9aa8cccf91e599is as close as i got to replicating the marvel that is the french keyboard with my level of understanding.

(TL;DR Grave accent and circumflex and colon and œ  æ are on the same buttons, the others are on 2490))

 

[Neelix]

Neelix: That colour relates to function, on a keyboard, isnt evident, because regular keyboards aren't made that way, they use position. For the purpose of colour-coding, by all means, colour-code shift and altGr if that is what it takes. I dont see how you add anything by doing that, but it does look ugly for the people that care.

I say again, this is not a regular keyboard, nor can it be. Regular keyboards have enough keys for all the regular symbols. On every compact keyboard I've ever encountered the same convention is extended to be used for symbols. Including the Pandora keyboard.

All things arranged QWERTY are not equal, nor are they seen as such.

What do you expect it to be compared to? There is no competition in the same form factor.What's important is that it is recognised as a QWERTY keyboard, and we've got that covered. Also what we've got so far is already an improvement on the Pandora layout, and frankly the Pandora keyboard stacks up really well against every mobile phone keyboard I've ever seen. (and physical keyboards on mobile phones are getting rare too, or at least they are here in Australia)

When you say "almost certain", where, other than the US layout, (which uses only shift) does @ not occur on AltGr?

Because its not:

...

We could check others, but thats the premise im working on.

 That's a faulty premise then. The keyboard layout we're discussing is the Pyra layout. The Current Pyra keyboard layout (linked by ED above) and every variation of it so far have all followed the US layout in the shifted number row. I don't expect that aspect to change before the layout is finalised. How other international layouts do it is irrelevant to this conversation.

-Neelix

 

[comradekingu]

To make it something that possibly a majority of people cant type on, purposely, because that compares to other legacy mobile keyboards, is strange. TOHKBD has enough keys, thats real linux, its a recent device. Why not compare to that?  The english layout was english only, all the others were local. What part of this do you think can change and still work? The fact that it did tells me something was right.
 
Typing doesn't change just because the form-factor does, its still QWERTY, and QWERTY isn't QWERTY for anyone but English people if you only have A-Z. Not having the letters on a keyboard is a flaw on a basic level. Full stop here, if you reinvent typing, nothing else matters, you have a English keyboard and that is it.
 

Spoiler

Colouring Fn does not make it into a question of just doing whatever, since other mobile keyboards are bad in all various ways.
 
There is a discrepancy here between regular keyboards and mobile ones. People prefer desktop ones, and position and colour compares between the two. Im saying colour adds ugliness for people that care about colour, and that those who dont, are fine with either. Colour is not a must. When people prefer real keyboards, what does colour add? Its not a huge issue, but think about it. To the uninitiated, who all know about shift, colouring is just a selection of colouring. Lots of blue labels. That one of them relates to the one that says "Fn" fails in this manner just as easily as "AltGr". Arguably if there isnt a lot of unknown junk, its easier to find out what does what, since you know the others. With AltGr being more known, and real keyboards being the serious contender, id say that is better.
 
So a US keyboard uses the same shiftrow, where did you get from lack of buttons, onto employing a third level shift modifer, that isnt AltGr, with symbols all over keys they don't belong on, with the name of a modifier that does something else. Its like BXAY, moving things around because everyone else does, keeping compatibility with something that no longer exists, dead, for good reason. Symbols on letters is a hack, the US layout was never made for mobile devices, US layout historically or technically has nothing to do with that decision.
 
Like the space, which you imply does something in the way of signifying that this is a keyboard. Does it actually do something beyond being a singlewide key in that regard? Compare your losses and gains, and consider what exists. There are mobile keyboards with singlewide noncentered space, and there are those with dualwide enter, or shift. Its possible to make every mistake there ever was by just pointing to something. If you don't look into it, but rather stick to what you think a mobile keyboard is, that answers nothing, and follows a long list of things that are to a good keyboard, mutually exclusive on account of all being different alone.
 
Compare one to the other and see how well it works for a selection of different people.

 

[thatgui]

The last proposed designs from ED, _wb_, ible and grench look fine, except there is no possibility to quickly alter the states of the wireless connections, one button should suffice for this (either by just toggeling through all combinations from "all off" to "all on" or the more clever version Grench proposed).

 

[Neelix]

@comradekingu: huh?

You're making even less sense than usual, and you've completely lost me.

Typing on a full size keyboard and typing on a thumb keyboard (and make no mistake the Pyra keyboard is a thumb keyboard) are two completely different skills that are only vaguely similar. The QWERTY layout provides a familiar base to build on (which is important make no mistake) but that's the only reason to use it on a small keyboard like the Pyra will have.

Typing on a full size keyboard involves using eight fingers across 8 different keys. Try putting 8 fingers on any given row of the Pandora or Pyra keyboards and unless you have child sized hands you'll find you can barely fit 8 fingers across the entire row of 11 keys. It's just not possible to type the same way on a keyboard that small even if there were enough keys to duplicate the layout fully, which there are not. There's no point chasing an ideal that can never be realised. The best we can hope for is the most practical layout for thumb typing, and that's what everyone else but you seems to be working towards.

-Neelix

 

[ible]

So, I think we're getting VERY close to a common ground layout.  I believe this to be an improvement and reinforcement on the theme from the ED and _wb_ layouts.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/90af356f62ad4e5cc98b56983aef01fa

I like this one, just because it doesn't have backspace on the game-button cluster.  You could put something like Menu at Fn+Backspace.  I would do away with CapsLock altogether, and just put User1 User2 where you have Pause/CapsLock.

The downside is less familiar places for symbols (compared to french keyboard):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/160ce23406d8cad9dd72d9df82af4fc0

Any preferable to the others?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9cfb51f7403ddbb39b0cc2454f9bfa4e

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/993005265be6c669f861dd849014b7eb

 

[_wb_]

The last proposed designs from ED, _wb_, ible and grench look fine, except there is no possibility to quickly alter the states of the wireless connections, one button should suffice for this (either by just toggeling through all combinations from "all off" to "all on" or the more clever version Grench proposed).

If you want a dedicated button for that, you can let USR1 or USR2 do that. I personally don't want a quick wifi toggle. My laptop has one, and all I 'use' it for is... accidental disconnects.

On a serious note : as a Froggy myself, I think we can live with only dead keys. What we need as dead keys for common French is : " ´ ", " ` ", " ¸ ", " ¨ " and " ^ ".

Please note that AZERTY is not a good indicator for French language as it is completely flawed. As a Windows user, I have to thank Microsoft for at least one thing : the Alt+Unicode.


This is the only way I know of to get Ç and É on this layout, because we can't just shift the letter as it's getting us the numbers. And we only get " ` ", " ¨ " and " ^ " as dead letters (the two latter ones being less commonly used).

It's even more worrying as some people actually believe that because of this fact, capital letters in typed French shouldn't be accentuated.


So don't worry about giving us dedicated letters, just give us dead diacritics and we'll do fine, as we've been through way worse.

If you thank Microsoft for Alt+number codes, then you should certainly thank *nix for the Compose key, which is much easier (Compose , C for Ç for example).

Layout I'm referring to: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6cba5957453accdc87e90713d2aa5f35

Let's discuss dead diacritics. It is a good mechanism, since it is more efficient than Compose sequences (two thumb presses instead of three). It is less efficient than a direct precomposed character though (one thumb press).

Acute ´

For French you don't really need dead acute, just éÉ suffices (and by having é on Fn+Q, obviously that implies that Shift+Fn+Q does É). It is good to have this as a special key too, because é is very common in French. Also in several other languages and in many loan words like "café" it is used. So having a dedicated éÉ is useful. Still, there is also a dead acute on Fn+R, because it is essential for a.o. Spanish, which puts acutes on all vowels. There are also Eastern European languages that put acutes on consonants, e.g. the Polish ć ń ś ź.

Grave `

For French you need à and è commonly, and ù in the word "où" (where), to distinguish it from the word "ou" (or). In most other languages (notable exception: Italian), à and è are also the most commonly used ones. I suggest to not have an explicitly labeled dead grave and to have Fn+B produce a backtick (`) immediately. However, if you need other graves than à and è, you could let Fn+B be dead grave (so you need to type Fn+B followed by space to get a backtick symbol). For Italians that makes sense. If you only rarely need other graves (e.g. French, which needs ù every now and then for the word "où"), then Compose is probably good enough. Also, Fn+Shift+B could be a dead grave by default, for those 'in the know'.

Diaeresis / Umlaut ¨

For German you need äöü. The ä and ö are also used in Swedish and Finnish. They are pretty common letters (especially in the Scandinavian languages), so having them available directly (in one thumb press) is practical. Other languages (e.g. French, Dutch) also need ë and ï, though typically not frequently. The Compose method (e.g. Compose " e for ë) is good enough. Also, Fn+" (so Fn+Shift+') could be mapped to dead umlaut by default, for those 'in the know'.

Circumflex ˆ

Quite important for French and several other languages. Fn+T is a dead circumflex.

Cedilla ¸

Mostly needed for the French and Portuguese çÇ. In Turkish you also need şŞ, and the Eastern European ogonek ąĄęĘ could also be considered as a sort of dead diacritic. However, I think  it suffices to have just the çÇ.

Tilde ~

Spanish needs ñÑ, Portuguese needs ãÃõÕ. I suggest to let Shift+~ be a dead tilde by default (Fn+Shift+H), for those 'in the know'. Those who frequently need tildes (Iberians and Latin Americans) can either let ~ be dead by default, or directly map Fn+N to ñÑ (for Spanish) or remap öä to õã (for Portuguese).

Caron ˇ

This one is heavily used in Eastern European languages, mostly for čČ šŠ žŽ. I suggest to let Shift+Fn+C and Fn+< (Shift+Fn+,) map to dead caron, for those 'in the know'. The others can use the standard Compose sequences: Compose C [letter] and Compose < [letter].

Stroke /

Mostly used in the Danish/Norwegian ø Ø and the Polish ł Ł (but also for đ Đ and ħ Ħ). Those who need it, will probably want to map the letters they need as precomposed direct letters somewhere. I propose to let Shift+/ (so Fn+Shift+.) be dead stroke, for those 'in the know'.

Overdot

Mostly used in Eastern European languages, e.g. Polish żŻ and Lithuanian ėĖ. Also dotless i (ıİ) is often grouped with this. I don't think a dead diacritic is useful here. Compose will have to do. Those who need it, will probably want to map the letters as precomposed direct letters (e.g. using the AltGr layer, which is still completely available).

Macron ¯

Mostly used in Eastern European languages (in particular, Baltic languages) and in transcriptions of non-Latin languages. The Compose method (Compose - [letter]) will have to do, especially since dash (-) is a primary key so it's a relatively easy Compose sequence.

Ring °

Only needed for the Scandinavian åÅ and the Czech ůŮ. Does not really make sense to make a dead diacritic for this. We could make Shift+° (so Fn+Shift+K) a dead ring.

Double acute (Hungarumlaut) ˝

Only needed for the Hungarian őŐ űŰ. Hungarians also need öÖ üÜ, so remapping those is not an option for them. I propose to let the dead acute on Fn+R turn öü into őű.

Breve ˘

Mostly needed for the Turkish ğĞ and the Romanian ăĂ. Not useful to have as a dead diacritic. Turkish and Romanian will have to do specific remappings anyway (e.g. on the AltGr layer).

So I think we have it all covered in terms of dead diacritics.

 

[thatgui]

The last proposed designs from ED, _wb_, ible and grench look fine, except there is no possibility to quickly alter the states of the wireless connections, one button should suffice for this (either by just toggeling through all combinations from "all off" to "all on" or the more clever version Grench proposed).

 If you want a dedicated button for that, you can let USR1 or USR2 do that. I personally don't want a quick wifi toggle. My laptop has one, and all I 'use' it for is... accidental disconnects.

Looks like a rather odd decision for a mobile device where preserving battery power is on the list of top priorities (and it is interesting that its made by someone that even shuts the power LED down to preserve energy).But I am still voting for it, accidentially pressing it, seems very unlikely and the "background" of this key is a tad more complicated to accomplish then simply rassigning another key.

Compromise: leave the button print as it is (which I don't like either, it gives the impression that the designers did not know what to make of it), but make wireless status control the default functionality - so newbies and (maybe few) people that use it, can still use it from the get-go. And "Poweruser" can just reassign the key

 

[ible]

I don't mind toggling my wifi from the task-bar, which presumably is where a little WiFi icon will sit.  i'd prefer this rather than a dedicated WiFi button, since it's not too hard to get to (and is where people would expect it), and saves us a button.

I think that any key which can behave as an accent (ring, forward tick, back tick, tilde, etc.), should be configured based on the user language to either be a dead key or not.  But for powerusers, you can map it to shift+(the accent), as _wb_ mentions, if you'd prefer to have a non-dead key by default.

 

[txus]

EvilDragon, starting from your last posted layout, I rearranged Meta


symbols on keys Q, Y, U, I, O, L, B, N, M to make it both more consistent


and more accessible for everyone.


Removed "è" and "à" ("`" + character), "é" and "ú" ("'" + character), and


"ç" ("," + character), since all of these can be written with either


"Compose" --> immediate symbol --> character, or "Compose" --> immediate


Meta symbol (just keep pressing "Meta" and it's also immediate) -->


character. The same can be used for other combinations like the spanish í,


ó or ñ. For the same reason, "ä", "ö" and "ü" are kept, since the sequence


would have been "Compose" --> """ --> character, which would mean


"Meta"+"Space" --> "Shift"+"'" --> character: complex enough to try to


avoid. I know: "What about circumflex or whatever other more exotic


combinations? Those are also tough!" Yes, but we can't have everything, and


German has a tiny bit more priority.


~ Moved "ß" (scharfes S) to "B". "Feels" better, since it can be used as


beta, if you are not a purist


~ Moved "ü" on "I", providing a more natural position for germans above "ö"


and "ä".


~ Moved "°" (degree) to "O" to make space for consecutive "«" and "»" (see


later). Also, it's a tiny little "O". It fits there.


~ Moved "CpsLck" to "Q", to be able to quickly toggle it with 2 thumbs, to


make space for a well located "µ" (see later), and because it could be


remembered as "Qaps Lock" (can't do that on "M").


+ Added "µ" (Mu, Micro) on "M", useful for writing papers and technology


related stuff.


+ Added "¬" (negator, NOT operator) on "N", for science (really, for


papers), for ¬¬' , and.. Why NOT?! (Badum Tsss)


+ Added "£" (Pound) on "L", like the "€" on "E", covering the 3 probably


most used currencies, at least for potential buyers. It's quite useful in


the Europe area.


+ Added "«" and "»" (quotes) at "Y" and "U", because it's very useful for


people who write a lot, and I hear people wrote whole books on a Pandora...


Hats off.


I also corrected the double "ü" and put an "ä" on "K", but I didn't count


it as a change since you already said it was a small typing error.


What do you think?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a2b2eebd6e4b271a4fcac5b7c1267e16

 

[_wb_]

The last proposed designs from ED, _wb_, ible and grench look fine, except there is no possibility to quickly alter the states of the wireless connections, one button should suffice for this (either by just toggeling through all combinations from "all off" to "all on" or the more clever version Grench proposed).

 
If you want a dedicated button for that, you can let USR1 or USR2 do that. I personally don't want a quick wifi toggle. My laptop has one, and all I 'use' it for is... accidental disconnects.

Looks like a rather odd decision for a mobile device where preserving battery power is on the list of top priorities (and it is interesting that its made by someone that even shuts the power LED down to preserve energy).
But I am still voting for it, accidentially pressing it, seems very unlikely and the "background" of this key is a tad more complicated to accomplish then simply rassigning another key.


Compromise: leave the button print as it is (which I don't like either, it gives the impression that the designers did not know what to make of it), but make wireless status control the default functionality - so newbies and (maybe few) people that use it, can still use it from the get-go. And "Poweruser" can just reassign the key

Yes, wifi toggle by default at USR1 or USR2 is fine for me. I would personally prefer to make USR1 a "Hardware modifier", which can be used to view and toggle the status of all kinds of things: USR1+W for wifi toggle, USR1+M for mobile data, USR1+U for USB, USR1+H for HDMI, USR1+G for GPS, USR1+R for rumble, and so on.

I think that any key which can behave as an accent (ring, forward tick, back tick, tilde, etc.), should be configured based on the user language to either be a dead key or not.  But for powerusers, you can map it to shift+(the accent), as _wb_ mentions, if you'd prefer to have a non-dead key by default.

I agree. A sensible default is to let all of them be direct symbols (like on US-QWERTY), except forward tick and circumflex (not the one at Shift+6 but the one at Fn+T) which should be dead diacritics by default (forward tick is not an ASCII symbol and it does not exist on any standard keyboard as a direct symbol, afaik).

 

[comradekingu]

@Neelix If typing QWERTY on mobile keyboards and real keyboards are such different skills, "only vaguely similar", why is it that removing keys for international languages is justifiable?

The difference between full layout, and not enough keys, for anyone, is the difference between a bad keyboard, and a good one.

Why did so many people buy other layouts of the TOHKBD, where there are foreign letters in these places, when supposedly that is not a way to build a mobile keyboard?

At least 500 of which (out of 1200 total) were "scandinavian" layout. (edit: update: the tohkbd irc said it was 560)

That is

Å

Ö Ä

one letter away from

Ü

ÖÄ       (which would be german) (a german default would work just fine for all of them)

The blackberry passport, which is the only current selling phone with a keyboard, flopped in Europe moreso than other places, when it has a keyboard (A-Z only) is the competition. TOHKBD OTOH was advertized as "Fn-free typing"  The majority wanted extra letters for international languages on a vote on this forum. What is there to deny or not like about this? The only comprimise you have to make, is to allow more of the buttons from US functional ANSI layout to be on the keyboard, how does that hurt anyone? Do you speak any non-english languages? I do, and English. Its the exact same thing removing something from english QWERTY as it is to remove it from international QWERTY.

 

[Grench]

How about Ñ/ñ? Is this done via a dead "~"+"n"? If there are dead keys anyway, why not treat the french accents and german umlauts the same way with "'", "`", "^", and """? Or can we get a dedicated "ñ" and remove, for example, "§", for which the only use I would know of is writing german legalese? The access to different languages (at least the one with latin characters) should be consistent, which also makes the use more intuitive since every time you are looking for an accented letter you know you can just press the most similar symbol to the accent + the letter.

 
There are no dead keys on this style of layout without first activating AltGr.  You COULD use compose ~ N to get Ñ  though.  The layouts with explicit and easy diacritics were deemed too complicated for general consumption.

There are: acute and circumflex would be available as dead keys. Those are needed in several languages, a.o. French and Spanish. Umlaut and grave are available as precomposed äöü and àè, which is enough for German and French; they could be made available as unlabeled dead keys on Shift+" and Shift+` to easily form the remaining umlauts and graves: ëïÿ and ìòùỳ.

Same with ~: Shift+~ could be dead tilde by default, useful for the Spanish ñ and the Portuguese ãõ.

Possible, yes.  However, it has been deemed by ED that there shall not be any keyboard use on the Fn+Shift layer.  Changing that rule would be critical to allowing the diacritics to work as you described above.

 

[Grench]

The last proposed designs from ED, _wb_, ible and grench look fine, except there is no possibility to quickly alter the states of the wireless connections, one button should suffice for this (either by just toggeling through all combinations from "all off" to "all on" or the more clever version Grench proposed).

The 'More clever version' you're referring to - was that the idea of having 4 controls per button for something like:

Normal:  WiFi toggle

Shifted:  Bluetooth toggle

Fn:  3G/4G toggle

Fn+Shift:  USB toggle

(Which one should be on which combination could be a subject for discussion IFF ED decides he wants something like this.)

That is currently forbidden as we are not allowed to use Fn+Shift+key combinations.

 

[EvilDragon]

@Neelix If typing QWERTY on mobile keyboards and real keyboards are such different skills, why is it that removing keys for international languages is justifiable?

The difference between full layout, and not enough keys, for anyone, is the difference between a bad keyboard, and a good one.

Why did so many people buy other layouts of the TOHKBD, where there are foreign letters in these places, when supposedly that is not a way to build a mobile keyboard?

Um... I just checked the TOHKBD which you seem to love.

You are aware that it has a COLOR CODED symbol on nearly EVERY single key as well now, have you?

And as it still doesn't have enough keys, they added a SYM key which pops up the symbol-selection screen on the phone (something we certainly don't want).

CTRL, ALT, INS, DEL and the cursor keys are in a totally different position than on a normal keyboard as well.

They even use the backspace-symbol that no one will recognize )

So yes, they did the same we do: Create a mobile keyboard with a focus on thumbtyping and adding symbols because they don't have enough keys.

The last proposed designs from ED, _wb_, ible and grench look fine, except there is no possibility to quickly alter the states of the wireless connections, one button should suffice for this (either by just toggeling through all combinations from "all off" to "all on" or the more clever version Grench proposed).

 The 'More clever version' you're referring to - was that the idea of having 4 controls per button for something like:

Normal:  WiFi toggle

Shifted:  Bluetooth toggle

Fn:  3G/4G toggle

Fn+Shift:  USB toggle

(Which one should be on which combination could be a subject for discussion IFF ED decides he wants something like this.)

That is currently forbidden as we are not allowed to use Fn+Shift+key combinations.

Yes, I was planning to have the USR-Buttons setup to something like this per default.

You can do Fn+Shift+Key combinations, I just don't want to print them somewhere, as it will get too complicated.

However, you can still put hotkeys wherever you want