Charging connectors

[Klumpen]

Not able to use USB3.0 when in Hub-mode? Meh...

I very much like my barrel jack. Just wanted to have that for the record.

Me too.

 

[_wb_]

I'm not sure if charging while making all CPU and GPU cores work at 100% is really a good idea. Wouldn't that generate so much heat that we would need a big heatsink or even active cooling? Anyway, I don't think there's a difference between µUSB 3.0 and a barrel jack in terms of how much power it can deliver.

I don't mind having an extra option to charge, but my main concern is that there is a way to charge quickly (possible with µUSB) and that the port is mechanically strong enough (possible with µUSB). If those requirements are met, then I'd rather take an extra USB-A port than a second charging port. It's more useful to me to be able to use an extra peripheral device than to be able to use an extra charging method.

 

[fusion_power]

I very much like my barrel jack. Just wanted to have that for the record.

"DO A BARREL JACK!" ^_^

 

[_jr_]

Heat obviously must be considered, but I think that is a separate problem. Is there any data whether the Pyra can even run at 100% without having to be throttled?

I'm just saying that it would suck, to run low on power while using PCSX, plugging in the charger, pressing fast forward (just as an example, I know it probably wouldn't cause 100% load to both cores and the GPU), getting called away and finding a drained battery and corrupt fs 2 minutes later. I'd rather have the system throttled (if neccessary) but (at least slowly) charging.

 

[_wb_]

Heat obviously must be considered, but I think that is a separate problem. Is there any data whether the Pyra can even run at 100% without having to be throttled? I'm just saying that it would suck, to run low on power while using PCSX, plugging in the charger, pressing fast forward (just as an example, I know it probably wouldn't cause 100% load to both cores and the GPU), getting called away and finding a drained battery and corrupt fs 2 minutes later. I'd rather have the system throttled (if neccessary) but (at least slowly) charging.

Not sure if heat is really a separate problem -- charging the battery causes the battery to become hot, and the battery and SoC are not far away from one another...

 

[_jr_]

You may be right I think it depends on whether charging is even possible while the Pyra is hot. I think the Pandora doesn't charge at all above a critical battery temperature. This temperature might be reached after some time of running the Pyra at 100%. In that case I'd like to be at least able to power the Pyra from the charger and not be forced to stop using it.

If it can theoretically be charged while hot, I assume (wrongly?) that the heat geenerated by charging can be managed so that it is lower than the heat generated by draining the battery while the System is running at 100% power consumption.

 

[Neelix]

Running the CPU hot isn't the only way to draw more than current than USB2 can provide though,   (and it wouldn't have to be going at 100% to get there either)  that was just one example of a use case where I could see it happening.

How about this one...   User has Wifi on and a USB  gaming keyboard with a back light plugged in, HDMI to the TV and is powering the Pyra off the one free USB2 socket on their TV while playing a game which uses ~50% CPU power...   Is the unit charging or discharging?   Add a SuperSpeed USB3 hard drive into the picture and suddenly there is no way to power the device at all for longer than a couple of hours at a time, and with long intervals in between sessions.

In any case, I think the use case of wanting to be able to charge the unit while also using a SuperSpeed USB3 device is enough of a reason to include the barrel jack.

- Neelix

 

[Klumpen]

You may be right I think it depends on whether charging is even possible while the Pyra is hot. I think the Pandora doesn't charge at all above a critical battery temperature. This temperature might be reached after some time of running the Pyra at 100%. In that case I'd like to be at least able to power the Pyra from the charger and not be forced to stop using it. If it can theoretically be charged while hot, I assume (wrongly?) that the heat geenerated by charging can be managed so that it is lower than the heat generated by draining the battery while the System is running at 100% power consumption.

Prototype of Pyra Charging Station/Hub revealed:

 

[Neelix]

Could this poll be redone with reasonable options in support of the Barrel jack please?  The current wording is so biased towards leaving it out, that the results are meaningless.

- Neelix

 

[_wb_]

In any case, I think the use case of wanting to be able to charge the unit while also using a SuperSpeed USB3 device is enough of a reason to include the barrel jack.

- Neelix

Are you sure this is not possible using just µUSB? I'm imagining a µUSB charger that still allows you to plug in a USB3 device.

 

[Granitehead]

Could this poll be redone with reasonable options in support of the Barrel jack please?  The current wording is so biased towards leaving it out, that the results are meaningless.

- Neelix

I think it's pretty clear. First one means "We absolutely need a barrel chack", second one "I want a barrel jack ", third one "I don't care" and the fourth and fifth the symmetric opposites to 2 and 1.

 

[Neelix]

Are you sure this is not possible using just µUSB? I'm imagining a µUSB charger that still allows you to plug in a USB3 device.

Am I sure it's not possible... No. 

Do I have any confidence that such a device as you describe here will be more than your imagination?  No.

I think it's pretty clear. First one means "We absolutely need a barrel chack", second one "I want a barrel jack ", third one "I don't care" and the fourth and fifth the symmetric opposites to 2 and 1.

Then it should be worded that way. Currently the second and fourth options don't give any indication that they mean anything at all.

- Neelix

 

[doragasu]

In my experience mini/micro USB connectors break because of a combination of two factors:

1.- The case doesn't hold the connector tight, allowing it to be slightly moved up/down.

2.- The connector is 100% surface mount, and has none through hole pins to firmly attach it to the PCB

You should never use microUSB connectors like this: http://www.digikey.es/product-detail/en/10104111-0001LF/609-4053-2-ND/2350354

Better use this one, it has through hole pins that prevent it from being easily ripped out from the PCB: http://www.digikey.es/product-detail/en/10103594-0001LF/609-4050-1-ND/2350357

The same happens with miniUSB (ej. this one vs this one)

Just use a micro USB connector with proper through hole mounting pins and throw away old barrel connectors.

 

[Granitehead]

Are you sure this is not possible using just µUSB? I'm imagining a µUSB charger that still allows you to plug in a USB3 device.

Am I sure it's not possible... No. Do I have any confidence that such a device as you describe here will be more than your imagination?  No.

That was noted in this very thread, only a few posts earlier: There is a technology which allows an USB host device to draw power from it's slave. We don't know whether the Pyra SoC supports this technology, though.

 

[moxie]

In any case, I think the use case of wanting to be able to charge the unit while also using a SuperSpeed USB3 device is enough of a reason to include the barrel jack.

- Neelix

Are you sure this is not possible using just µUSB? I'm imagining a µUSB charger that still allows you to plug in a USB3 device.

I think this is the breaking question, really. There has been statements that "This ought to be possible" and "According to the spec, it is possible", but there has been no practical example, as in "Look at this charger thingy here - This makes it possible to do it". My preference for the barrel jack is more out of usability and trust (I like to be able to differentiate my data and power sources, and I know I have no problem getting barrel jack chargers in any combination of voltage and amperage), but the possibility that we might end up with a situation where Neelix use case (which is more or less where we want the Pyra to work, right?) fails because we cant supply enough juice is a bit scary.

 

[WizardStan]

It's called "accessory charging adapter" (ACA), and while I can find lots of instances of people saying that Nokia phones support it, and several other phones (such as the Galaxy SIII) supporting it with custom kernels, I can't actually find a single instance of a cable that does it. It should be a Y cable, micro/miniUSB at one end, and full sized USB-A and USB-B at the other. We could make one, I suppose, but that's not the same thing as just being able to buy it from anywhere. Also not all OTG chips actually can do this, and it has to be carefully integrated with the PMIC to be supported, which is apparently not an easy task and the reason not everyone does it.

Hmm... what PMIC is going to go into the Pyra?

 

[Grench]

Crazy idea.

Instead of a barrel jack, include a 2nd 'charging only' micro-usb connector.

The catch would be having the logic sitting behind it to negotiate to the highest amperage that the source can provide. Up to 2.1A or such.

 

[Binky]

The catch would be having the logic sitting behind it to negotiate to the highest amperage that the source can provide. Up to 2.1A or such.

How hard would this be?

Could it be done with a GPIO?

A tiny/cheap microcontroller?

Custom charge controller firmware?

 

[Granitehead]

The catch would be having the logic sitting behind it to negotiate to the highest amperage that the source can provide. Up to 2.1A or such.

 How hard would this be?

Could it be done with a GPIO?

A tiny/cheap microcontroller?

Custom charge controller firmware?

This is stupid because it takes even more room than a barrel jack. No one has anything against barrel jacks. It's just that if we only have room for a barrel jack OR a second USB host port, then the USB port is to be preferred.

 

[Grench]

The catch would be having the logic sitting behind it to negotiate to the highest amperage that the source can provide. Up to 2.1A or such.

 How hard would this be?

Could it be done with a GPIO?

A tiny/cheap microcontroller?

Custom charge controller firmware?

This is stupid because it takes even more room than a barrel jack. No one has anything against barrel jacks. It's just that if we only have room for a barrel jack OR a second USB host port, then the USB port is to be preferred.

The thing I don't like about barrel jacks is that there are so many sizes - and I have to go to a mega-big-box store or a Radio Shack to find one if I'm traveling and misplace my charger. They're invariably cheap affairs with a gigantic, heavy wall wart brick with blades/fangs that don't retract.

microUSB chargers are ubiquitous. Everyone has a pile of them. You can get them -anywhere-. You can even get really nice ones that do a full 2.1A with folding blades/fangs too.

When I got my Pandora I was still using a BlackBerry with a miniUSB charging/sync port. The 700mA charger from the BB worked great with the Pandora. In fact, my regular travel thing was to bring a 3' miniUSB sync cable and the one BlackBerry charger. At night I would plug in the Pandora to the 700mA charger and then the BlackBerry into the USB port on the Pandora - using the short sync cable. It worked -great-.

With the Pyra, I would like to be able to plug the Pyra into the 2.1A Samsung microUSB charger for my Note 2 phone, then daisy chain charge the Phone from the USB 2.0 port on the Pyra. They charge while I sleep and we're all ready for the next day. And I only have to pack one small, high quality, charger.

So, even if they're supplying the same voltage and amperage, a dumb charge-only microUSB port is more valuable than a barrel jack connector.