Can Someone Please Correct Me If I Am Wrong?
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Javacat
Founder of the WarmFluffyUK fan club
I was a little bored and decided to hunt down an actual patent that this would break and I think I found it 
Patent number 6768635 - Hand-held electronic device with hidden keyboard
Patent number 6768635 - Hand-held electronic device with hidden keyboard
prairiefire said:
Well, that's what YOU want it for. For me, the criteria is different. I want to do a lot of web browsing, and I don't go to work on the bus...
And that's the point-this must appeal to a wide spectrum of people for it to be a success. Not just you and your wishes. But we have had this discussion many times before here.
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lubidog said:Well, that's what YOU want it for. For me, the criteria is different. I want to do a lot of web browsing, and I don't go to work on the bus...
And that's the point-this must appeal to a wide spectrum of people for it to be a success. Not just you and your wishes. But we have had this discussion many times before here.
Quite obviously, you failed to even take what i wrote to you, and follow the instruction as such, stop reading, write your own usage ideas for the device, and then go back. And i have to say I'm impressed with your self glorification. What i figure most will use it for, is pure rubbish, but your idea of what it will be used for is 100% what everyone have to agree on. Not that you even will say what that idea of yours is... And, your saying i don't take other peoples reasons for having the darn thing into account... Yeah. I really am insensitive, shame on me. For the reason of argument only, care to try again?
And for reference. I ride my bike to the town. Or actually, i live 5-10 mins from the central downtown in the 6'th largest city in Sweden. (not that it makes it a big city) I don't go anywhere by buss, unless i really really have to, and if i do, i read the newspaper on the buss. My own only use for the device is retro gaming, SNES, Amiga and possibly PSX, but thats more unlikely. The place that will happen in? My sofa, most likely. Maybe the waterbed to, when I'm to lazy to get up. I was speaking about the general usage, not my usage, exactly as i asked anyone responding to do.Mr B said:Infact, Do tell me, exactly what YOU think the device is, and what it is made for. And more interestingly, what it's main usage will be. Do so, preferably without reading what others described it as.
I should have guessed you wouldn't be able to look outside your own sandbox, since thats what your accusing me of all the time.
Javacat said:I was a little bored and decided to hunt down an actual patent that this would break and I think I found it
Patent number 6768635 - Hand-held electronic device with hidden keyboard
Actually that patent seams to cover a device with a dual design, clamshell, and slide out accessible keyboards?
Anyway, this only covers 1 way of making a slide out, and i ain't to sure it would be to hard to provide prior art tech to this... And if that is done, you pretty much get away with it anyway. Well, aslong as who ever made the prior art thing didn't patent it, and sue you instead. Good find tho.
B!
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Tobriand
Well-Known Member
Well, in summary, a PDA that's not shite for playing games, and thus appeals to gamers. Presence of a keyboard especially to appeal to Amiga lovers, the emulating of which will most definitely be a primary use.Mr B said:
In detail:
- Gaming mainly PSX, Amiga, N64, Genesis, Snes, GBA, and eventually, NDS if we're lucky. Also, a LOT of ports that were not options on earlier hardware - at least Quake 3, with WiFi multiplayer and full mod compatibility. Other open source games - someone mentioned No One Lives Forever, which would look very very pertty indeed on a screen this size. Wargus/Strategus. Note the Amiga in bold. So many games for that awesome system are unplayable on currentgen handhelds due to the time it takes to use a virtual keyboard. Having one built in is crucial to changing that. C64 and Atari ST are in a similar boat.
- Note-taking for geek students who cba to lug a laptop around with them. Obviously, other office applications to be available, but the obvious one is word processing.
- Free VoIP on the move (from the sound of things once you've bought some accessories.
- Web browsing at the more and more frequently available WiFi hotspots. Again, an alternative to lugging your laptop with you when you stop in at a cafe offering free wifi.
- Corollary: Streaming Video if flash support is sufficient. Playing those rare gems in flash games.
- Corollary: Email
- Corollary: Updating software, installing new software via a one-click process such that it *just works* over WiFi.
- Local video, music storage and playback.
- Corollary: Minor, but important, use in DJ-ing as the GP2x has been. Such exposure is very useful for establishing the device in a different niche of geeks, and as something owned by people who are cool.
- Demo playback. Pandora supports OpenGL. Lots of demos are in OpenGL with source. Again, a niche group, but nothing wrong with that. Means that there will actually be the potential for Pandora to become a fully fledged member of the DemoScene, which, despite best efforts, the GP2x just couldn't do. Crucially, it won't be quite so hard to get a rotating cube working, so people can focus on the art bit instead.
- Coding. On the move.
- Making the designers some very hard-earned and well-deserved cash. (Non-user design goal).
- Exhibiting the OMAP3430 chip to the world in such a way that those aiming to produce software for it when it turns up in mobile phones have a cheap devkit, increasing the chances that such a chip would be chosen by other device manufacturers. (Ti design goal).
I think that about covers what it's designed to do. Much of this is possible on existing products, but not where there are gaming *and* PDA controls. Can you think of anything I've forgotten? Idd, I'm not planning on using all this, but I'm certainly hoping to use a fair bit of it!
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Your post was so impressive Tobriand, that i didn't want to ruin it be cutting it down to small quotes.
However, there are a few questions i have, regarding my main problem with this thing.
You mention Amiga emulation, and i just happen to love the Amiga. However, the only use i ever had for the keyboard as far as i remember was programming, and Octamed. What games need a keyboard, and cant have it replaced by a onscreen one? Not saying your wrong, but i kinda don't see this as a reason for the crippled keyboard.
Note taking for students would definitely be a use, but said students need to edit and work with a lot larger documents then notes as well. The screen will limit the usability as a tool in school. Not to mention the fact that it looks like a gaming device, which alone most likely will make it banned from classrooms and lecturing.
Web browsing don't really need a keyboard. In fact, it would be much easier on a fold over screen where you navigate with the pen on the screen, with no keyboard to interact with at all. Actively participating in forums, and similar, does take some means of input, but i don't see that as a issue.
Email, is hugely important. We already know that works with T9 keyboard/keypads, what ever tho. And most importantly is to be able to read, and respond with short answers to emails, not writing books.
Coding, on the move, is again something i think sounds good in theory, but with the limited lines of code you can have on the screen, i somehow doubt it's going to be widely used. Actually, i doubt it will be used at all, other then as prof of concept, and after the first 1-2 weeks it will lose it's attraction to the owner, who will hook it to a monitor to see what he is doing, or simply hook it up over USB to a PC, and do the coding there.
From my point of view, a onscreen keyboard, combined with a text recognition system would be the best solution, for all of the above.
I think you covered most possible uses, but i hope you didn't put it in order of amount of usage.
B!
However, there are a few questions i have, regarding my main problem with this thing.
You mention Amiga emulation, and i just happen to love the Amiga. However, the only use i ever had for the keyboard as far as i remember was programming, and Octamed. What games need a keyboard, and cant have it replaced by a onscreen one? Not saying your wrong, but i kinda don't see this as a reason for the crippled keyboard.
Note taking for students would definitely be a use, but said students need to edit and work with a lot larger documents then notes as well. The screen will limit the usability as a tool in school. Not to mention the fact that it looks like a gaming device, which alone most likely will make it banned from classrooms and lecturing.
Web browsing don't really need a keyboard. In fact, it would be much easier on a fold over screen where you navigate with the pen on the screen, with no keyboard to interact with at all. Actively participating in forums, and similar, does take some means of input, but i don't see that as a issue.
Email, is hugely important. We already know that works with T9 keyboard/keypads, what ever tho. And most importantly is to be able to read, and respond with short answers to emails, not writing books.
Coding, on the move, is again something i think sounds good in theory, but with the limited lines of code you can have on the screen, i somehow doubt it's going to be widely used. Actually, i doubt it will be used at all, other then as prof of concept, and after the first 1-2 weeks it will lose it's attraction to the owner, who will hook it to a monitor to see what he is doing, or simply hook it up over USB to a PC, and do the coding there.
From my point of view, a onscreen keyboard, combined with a text recognition system would be the best solution, for all of the above.
I think you covered most possible uses, but i hope you didn't put it in order of amount of usage.
B!
Tobriand
Well-Known Member
No, I didn't order in terms of usage. Just in terms of the design goals the machine is known to aim to cover, and those which it is implied it is designed to cover by e.g. comments about the effort gone into getting good quality sound.
Re: Amiga and which games need a keyboard, I must confess, I'm uncertain, beyond the inevitable swath of text adventures; I never actually owned one, though I'm looking forward to getting into it as and when. Of particular interest to me, though, are the amiga versions of the Sierra adventures, many of which are text-parser games.
It also strikes me that Frontier (whether just FE2 or FFE, though the latter would have to be run on Dosbox), whilst it's awesome with a mouse, is actually a LOT easier to play with a full complement of keys.
I doubt Pandora would be banned in the lectures I have, simply because of the other gadgets I've seen used to help note-take. But yeah, you might get a few funny looks. I take it your mention of larger docs being an issue is due to the screen size - laptops are obviously easier for reading such things. However, that doesn't mean Pandora won't be able to handle them - indeed, I'm looking forward to being able to use it to browse JStor in cafes next year. Won't be perfect, but it doesn't weigh a ton like my laptop does, and the battery will last a LOT longer.
You're right about web-browsing. Though since a lot of my net-time is spent on here, and many other people spend a fair bit of it writing or responding to blog posts, fast, efficient data entry really is a must for a good net experience in my book.
Also, as I mentioned, on the "life-sized" pandora I got, I can hit, easily, with no practice, about 51wpm. That's using it in a mini-laptop mode and typing with two fingers (plus right pinky for spaces). Not a fantastic test, but the text was
QUOTE
This is a passage of text I'm trying to type on the Pandora keyboard. To test just how fast I am. This is fairly long, and I'll have to memorize it to get it right to start with, since I do need to look a little at the keys, but I'll
from a slightly larger thing. Yes I did correct typos I noticed. No I hadn't typed that particular passage before on the Pandora-flyer, though I had on the PC to I had something I was copying.
In contrast, the same thing would take be about twice as long to enter on a T9, and, unless the onscreen keyboard was *very* responsive indeed, probably about one and a half times on that. For word processing that kind of time difference is important!
Oh, final note: you've probably noticed that my posts tend to be fairly long. I'm afraid I'm no less verbose by email - I like to be chatty. So a nice input device really is a plus for me, and the keyboard (to all indications) is one such device. Although, of course, it is possible that were I using the real device I might be hitting more wrong keys since they are a little small... but only a little. Lack of a gap between keys might also compromise predicted efficiency and actual.
Re: Amiga and which games need a keyboard, I must confess, I'm uncertain, beyond the inevitable swath of text adventures; I never actually owned one, though I'm looking forward to getting into it as and when. Of particular interest to me, though, are the amiga versions of the Sierra adventures, many of which are text-parser games.
It also strikes me that Frontier (whether just FE2 or FFE, though the latter would have to be run on Dosbox), whilst it's awesome with a mouse, is actually a LOT easier to play with a full complement of keys.
I doubt Pandora would be banned in the lectures I have, simply because of the other gadgets I've seen used to help note-take. But yeah, you might get a few funny looks. I take it your mention of larger docs being an issue is due to the screen size - laptops are obviously easier for reading such things. However, that doesn't mean Pandora won't be able to handle them - indeed, I'm looking forward to being able to use it to browse JStor in cafes next year. Won't be perfect, but it doesn't weigh a ton like my laptop does, and the battery will last a LOT longer.
You're right about web-browsing. Though since a lot of my net-time is spent on here, and many other people spend a fair bit of it writing or responding to blog posts, fast, efficient data entry really is a must for a good net experience in my book.
Also, as I mentioned, on the "life-sized" pandora I got, I can hit, easily, with no practice, about 51wpm. That's using it in a mini-laptop mode and typing with two fingers (plus right pinky for spaces). Not a fantastic test, but the text was
QUOTE
This is a passage of text I'm trying to type on the Pandora keyboard. To test just how fast I am. This is fairly long, and I'll have to memorize it to get it right to start with, since I do need to look a little at the keys, but I'll
from a slightly larger thing. Yes I did correct typos I noticed. No I hadn't typed that particular passage before on the Pandora-flyer, though I had on the PC to I had something I was copying.
In contrast, the same thing would take be about twice as long to enter on a T9, and, unless the onscreen keyboard was *very* responsive indeed, probably about one and a half times on that. For word processing that kind of time difference is important!
Oh, final note: you've probably noticed that my posts tend to be fairly long. I'm afraid I'm no less verbose by email - I like to be chatty. So a nice input device really is a plus for me, and the keyboard (to all indications) is one such device. Although, of course, it is possible that were I using the real device I might be hitting more wrong keys since they are a little small... but only a little. Lack of a gap between keys might also compromise predicted efficiency and actual.
Text adventures, never were anything big for me, the most i got in contact with them on the Amiga was that sex freak, where you type 5-10 words through out the game or so. Cant remember the name of the game series, but i think it was Sierra made.
Frontier Elite was a huge time hog for me, and yeah, your right, with a mouse, i used the keyboard a lot for the different buttons along the screen edge. I cant imagine using keys for it on anything with a touchscreen tho. using the screen for all the other mouse controls, kinda makes in natural to hit those buttons with the finger. I know over here, they early banned PDA's with audio capabilities, altho i cant say i know why.
Writing on the web, emails, and notes all to me make more sense with a combined text recognition system, and a onscreen keyboard. A field for writing your word, then the dictionary takes the "guess" of what you wrote, and tries make sense of it (goes on the fly, and you wouldn't notice any delay) and you get to correct the guesses if needed. As it "learns" how you write, it gets better at guessing, and you get more adopted to writing so it guess right. And offcourse you have the onscreen keyboard for those words that isn't in the dictionary to start with, making sure uts spelled right, and added to the dictionary. Making the software for the feature might be harder tho.
All this is pretty much wasted time anyway, so i guess that just proves that you, and me, both, just don't know when to quit. And your posts doesn't seam to big to me. ;- )
B!
Frontier Elite was a huge time hog for me, and yeah, your right, with a mouse, i used the keyboard a lot for the different buttons along the screen edge. I cant imagine using keys for it on anything with a touchscreen tho. using the screen for all the other mouse controls, kinda makes in natural to hit those buttons with the finger. I know over here, they early banned PDA's with audio capabilities, altho i cant say i know why.
Writing on the web, emails, and notes all to me make more sense with a combined text recognition system, and a onscreen keyboard. A field for writing your word, then the dictionary takes the "guess" of what you wrote, and tries make sense of it (goes on the fly, and you wouldn't notice any delay) and you get to correct the guesses if needed. As it "learns" how you write, it gets better at guessing, and you get more adopted to writing so it guess right. And offcourse you have the onscreen keyboard for those words that isn't in the dictionary to start with, making sure uts spelled right, and added to the dictionary. Making the software for the feature might be harder tho.
All this is pretty much wasted time anyway, so i guess that just proves that you, and me, both, just don't know when to quit. And your posts doesn't seam to big to me. ;- )
B!
Karel Jansens
Active Member
QUOTE
Writing on the web, emails, and notes all to me make more sense with a combined text recognition system, and a onscreen keyboard. A field for writing your word, then the dictionary takes the "guess" of what you wrote, and tries make sense of it (goes on the fly, and you wouldn't notice any delay) and you get to correct the guesses if needed. As it "learns" how you write, it gets better at guessing, and you get more adopted to writing so it guess right. And offcourse you have the onscreen keyboard for those words that isn't in the dictionary to start with, making sure uts spelled right, and added to the dictionary. Making the software for the feature might be harder tho.
As someone who's had quite a bit of experience with handwriting recognition, I feel confident to tell you that there are only two viable HWR solutions out there.
The first one is built into the Newton MessagePad and -- OpenEinstein suddenly exploding withstanding -- is not available for any other system. It's also immensely helped by a pen-centric operating system, which makes up for at least 40% of the usefullness of any HWR.
The other one is PhatWare's CalliGrapher (or, in extended form, PenOffice). This one is available as a Linux engine, but only for OEMs, to be tied to a particular machine. The Windows-based version of PenOffice works very well on a tablet pc, but is hampered by the non-pen-awareness of Windows. I'm assuming Linux is equally pen-unfriendly -- at least, I have yet to come across a window manager designed for pen use.
There is an intriguing alternative for Linux: CellWriter, which is a character recognizer (no cursive writing), but appears to be very well made. And it's open source. Personally, I prefer fullscreen cursive handwriting recognition for its speed and user friendliness, but Cellwriter seems to be a good second choice.
Of course, if the keyboard stays, any HWR seems to be overkill...
Writing on the web, emails, and notes all to me make more sense with a combined text recognition system, and a onscreen keyboard. A field for writing your word, then the dictionary takes the "guess" of what you wrote, and tries make sense of it (goes on the fly, and you wouldn't notice any delay) and you get to correct the guesses if needed. As it "learns" how you write, it gets better at guessing, and you get more adopted to writing so it guess right. And offcourse you have the onscreen keyboard for those words that isn't in the dictionary to start with, making sure uts spelled right, and added to the dictionary. Making the software for the feature might be harder tho.
As someone who's had quite a bit of experience with handwriting recognition, I feel confident to tell you that there are only two viable HWR solutions out there.
The first one is built into the Newton MessagePad and -- OpenEinstein suddenly exploding withstanding -- is not available for any other system. It's also immensely helped by a pen-centric operating system, which makes up for at least 40% of the usefullness of any HWR.
The other one is PhatWare's CalliGrapher (or, in extended form, PenOffice). This one is available as a Linux engine, but only for OEMs, to be tied to a particular machine. The Windows-based version of PenOffice works very well on a tablet pc, but is hampered by the non-pen-awareness of Windows. I'm assuming Linux is equally pen-unfriendly -- at least, I have yet to come across a window manager designed for pen use.
There is an intriguing alternative for Linux: CellWriter, which is a character recognizer (no cursive writing), but appears to be very well made. And it's open source. Personally, I prefer fullscreen cursive handwriting recognition for its speed and user friendliness, but Cellwriter seems to be a good second choice.
Of course, if the keyboard stays, any HWR seems to be overkill...
Karel Jansens
Active Member
Mr B said:
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