Bugs and Calculations

[Black Sliver]

And they will allow you to use this weird little device they have never heard of on their network?

If you get a "bare" sim, that means they don't care. Surely they can disallow devices by contract. But why would they?! The modem chip has to comply to all regulations, but you would break laws if it didn't. That's not a problem with the phone company provider.[/S]

 

[rygD]

If all of this is true, and I have many doubts, then it is worth it to help the people that prefer to go with those companies. I still wouldn't advertise it as working for them until it has been confirmed. I get the feeling no one will actually try to find out for sure until after the first Pyras ship.

 

[Swordfish II]

If all of this is true, and I have many doubts, then it is worth it to help the people that prefer to go with those companies. I still wouldn't advertise it as working for them until it has been confirmed. I get the feeling no one will actually try to find out for sure until after the first Pyras ship.

Really that is the only way you can tell anyway.

But I have said my piece and I'll stop talking about which should/shouldn't be used and see what ED decides

 

[rygD]

Really that is the only way you can tell anyway.

But I have said my piece and I'll stop talking about which should/shouldn't be used and see what ED decides

Yes, but a major part of your argument is based on things that are not absolutely known. You are telling him to use money to buy a part because it will support more potential customers, however this is possibly false. There might be some people that will only accept 4G for whatever reason, including because this is what has been told to everyone since he decided he wanted to go with 4G. Not everyone that is interested in a Pyra is here, and even some of those that are have stated that 4G might be important for their intended tasks, including playing certain games (which is what the real purpose of the Pyra is).

I still say it is best to try to find a way to make 4G work, and if that can't happen then contact preorder customers and ask them if they would be willing to go with 3G instead.

 

[Swordfish II]

Yes, but a major part of your argument is based on things that are not absolutely known. You are telling him to use money to buy a part because it will support more potential customers, however this is possibly false. There might be some people that will only accept 4G for whatever reason, including because this is what has been told to everyone since he decided he wanted to go with 4G. Not everyone that is interested in a Pyra is here, and even some of those that are have stated that 4G might be important for their intended tasks, including playing certain games (which is what the real purpose of the Pyra is).

I still say it is best to try to find a way to make 4G work, and if that can't happen then contact preorder customers and ask them if they would be willing to go with 3G instead.

4G will absolutely not work (hardware wise) on 2 major carriers in the US, one being the largest, the other being 4th largest. It absolutely requires different EU and US chipsets, the MOQ isn't very feasible with the fractured amounts, and it drives up cost substantially from 3 G.

These are facts buddy.

Even if (and BIG IF because they should) the two major carriers still cannot play with the 3G, ALL of those other problems disappear. MOQ is no issue because EU and US are the same, cost is lower and production is easier.

Like I said I'll see what ED goes with. I would suggest 3G on the low end Pyra, 4G on the high end, but that might bump it over the cost threshold he was trying to stay under.

 

[Klumpen]

Blimey, just cancel the whole 3G/4G kaboodle and put another heatspreader there instead.

 

[moxie]

I'm still, every time, amazed at the sheer weirdness of the US mobile phone network thingie.

That's all.

 

[Blue Shadow]

I am very confused about the whole "allowance" thing. In the US, do you have to go to your carrier with your device, let them approve it and only then will they unlock the sim to work with the IMEI??

If not, how will they even know what device are you using?

Of course it is needed that your carrier will support the correct frequencies and sim card, but I don't get it why it have to "allow" a certain device(unless they indeed check each hardware individually and then tie the sim to it).

 

[WizardStan]

4G will absolutely not work (hardware wise) on 2 major carriers in the US, one being the largest, the other being 4th largest.

Why not? The 4G chip supports 3G FDD band 1, which is used by both Sprint and Verizon, and on the LTE side Verizon also supports AWS and is rolling out FDD band 2 towers supported by the PLS8-US. Worst case scenario the 4G is no worse than the 3G, and at best Verizon customers will get 4G connections.

edit: whoops, scratch some of that, I glanced too quickly at the sheet, it's the PLS8-E that supports FDD band 1, not the PLS8-U. I wonder if a Sprint or Verizon customer could order the European version and it would work.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

iirc, someone said the US 4G module would be somewhat usefull around the world. ? If so, couldn't it just be endorsed to take that one over the EU version outside the US and the EU, wherever fitting, to level demand and meet MOQ on both ends?
If my assumption ain't right, say so and let's forget about what I just said.

 

[Klumpen]

Will Pyra be able to morse?
I'd probably make a custom steampunk case if it could.

Screw 4G, let's morse!

 

[Dimacus]

I wouldn't mind 3G speed-wise, but keep in mind that at least in Europe, 3G is sort of on the way out, at least in some places. (I hear the reverse is true in Asia and the US, 2G getting shut down in favour of 3G and 4G)
Tele2 in Norway is shutting down their 3G network in 2020 and indications are that many European countries are or will be downsizing their 3G networks, if not completely removing them as use of 4G and VoLTE is spreading.
NOTE The last part is mainly second-hand hearsay, mainly from m2m and m2m related companies and customers that discourage/don't want 3G solutions for long term (5y+) m2m projects in various EU countries, they recommend/want either 2G or 4G.

[Edit] This probably wont be an issue for the next 5-6 years (except in Norway), but after that?[/Edit]

Anyway, wouldn't a good solution be something along the lines of how kickstarter works?
Open the pre-orders and keep them open for a month or two, if during that time you get less than the required number, offer the No-G or the 3G (if minimum orders aren't as much of a problem with those) version or a refund (excluding/including payment fees) - or perhaps simply use kickstarter for this model exclusively if that would be cheaper?

 

[benoitb]

iirc, someone said the US 4G module would be somewhat usefull around the world. ? If so, couldn't it just be endorsed to take that one over the EU version outside the US and the EU, wherever fitting, to level demand and meet MOQ on both ends?
If my assumption ain't right, say so and let's forget about what I just said.

Your assumption ain't right.
[doublepost=1460463013,1460462980][/doublepost]

Will Pyra be able to morse?
I'd probably make a custom steampunk case if it could.

Screw 4G, let's morse!

It has a mic and speaker, it can morse
[doublepost=1460463294][/doublepost]

I am very confused about the whole "allowance" thing. In the US, do you have to go to your carrier with your device, let them approve it and only then will they unlock the sim to work with the IMEI??

If not, how will they even know what device are you using?

Of course it is needed that your carrier will support the correct frequencies and sim card, but I don't get it why it have to "allow" a certain device(unless they indeed check each hardware individually and then tie the sim to it).

Technical means are usually at 2 layers:

• IMEI check (the operator gets it from its network equipment when you connect, no need to check it physically on your device)
• user-agent check (they can get it from a proxy or IP probe)

Of course, you should avoid any operator doing this kind of dirty things...

 

[rygD]

@Dimacus Kickstarter will want their chunk of the money, and it might delay things. If ED gets enough preorders in the first month, everything can move on immediately if he has control of everything. I think it was said that GC would allow some leniency and get started before the KS was over if funding was met (so it may not matter if he raises funds himself or through KS).

I do like the idea of having US 4G (or "regional" 4G if that sounds better) as a stretch goal. I don't know if it would be better to start out with 3G or EU 4G, because, again, word has gotten out that the Pyra will have 4G.

 

[edgex004]

@Swordfish II gemalto's data sheet says the 4G chip supports WCDMA. From what I can tell there will be no difference in support between 4G chip and 3G chip for sprint and Verizon customers, except that the 4G chip will be faster.

Neither chip provides CDMA which might prevent support for 2G and below on those carriers.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

I represent just myself, but to me the Pyra is a linux phone and thus exactly what I want plus a palmtop pc. So it coming with a EU 4G chip is important to me, if not essential - especially should Dimacus' hear-say reflect facts.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Might I make another suggestion? You make the final price a minimum? So that if people want they can add more.

Need to check how that would best work with the shop system

How about an extra field on the ordering form for voluntary donations?

 

[ible]

probably better to be up-front about the possibility of getting 3G instead of 4G in the first batch, if we don't make MOQ. it seems a problem for the US, since major carriers don't support GSM for voice/sms, so there won't be as many US people jumping on the Pyra modem version... maybe you can get data through on the CDMA carriers (Verizon/Sprint), but will they really accept such a device on their network? (if not, someone please edit https://www.pyra-handheld.com/wiki/index.php?title=Carrier_Compatibility for correctness.)

do we aim high and preorder for 4G? probably yes. if we fail to get over the units, do we put it down to 3G and say you can use your voucher on other stuff on the shop? but does ED then get stuck with a bunch of 3G units in his shop? (probably not, if the pandora-in-shop disappearance rate has anything to say about things...)

 

[Swordfish II]

@Swordfish II gemalto's data sheet says the 4G chip supports WCDMA. From what I can tell there will be no difference in support between 4G chip and 3G chip for sprint and Verizon customers, except that the 4G chip will be faster.

Neither chip provides CDMA which might prevent support for 2G and below on those carriers.

> PHS8-P / PHS8-J / PHS8-K: Five Bands UMTS/HSPA+
(WCDMA/FDD) (850/800, 900, 1900 and 2100 MHz),
Quad-Band GSM (850/900/1800/1900 MHz)
> PHS8-US / PHS8-USA:
Dual Band UMTS/HSPA+ (850, 1900 MHz),
Dual-Band GSM (850/1900 MHz)
> PHS8-E: Dual Band UMTS/HSPA+ (900/2100 MHz),
Dual-Band GSM (900/1800 MHz)
> UMTS / HSPA+, 3GPP release 6 / 7
> Rx-Diversity with Equalizer (Type 3i)
> Enhanced F-DPCH, DTX, DRX, SCH-IC

This sheet only shows the PHS8-P / PHS8-J / PHS8-K as supporting WCDMA

 

[rygD]

@ible the problem I have with that is that people in other parts of the world shouldn't lose 4G because the US is a mess. Maybe the 3 options should be wifi only, global 3G, and EU 4G. This seems to be the best for everyone since those 3G units can be sold to people everywhere. If 3G is dying in Europe it might not sell so well there, however it ensures more potential buyers, and can be a middle range in price and connectivity over there. I don't really like it, but if ED feels he might let US customers down by needing to drop 4G , it is better than nothing.