Amaricas Entering A Possable Second Depression.


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quasist

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I wish that Hollywood make new film about James Bond (starring Pirce Brosnan) about all that mess.
 

nickspoon

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The very fundamental idea of democracy is that you, as an individual, vote for the person who best fits your interests. This may well be a so-called 'third-party' candidate. Of course, this does not necessarily mean that this works in practice in any democratic system in the world today, but it also means that you can't criticise people for voting for whom they want to be in power. That's what democracy is for. That's why I'll be voting Liberal Democrat. (Also, they do actually have a slim chance at getting in now Labour is so unpopular.)

Personally, I support Obama. McCain's stances on the issues of contraception, abortion, welfare and warfare are simply inexcusable, and worsened by his selection of Palin as VP (remember, if McCain dies during presidency, Palin takes over).
 

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This discussion has (understandably) veered off toward the upcoming US election. I've started a dedicated thread for US election debate. If you wish to continue that discussion, please take it there. While the one has certain ties to the other, the financial semi-collapse we've experienced this week deserves to have its own thread.
 
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jakshep2

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nickspoon said:
That's why I'll be voting Liberal Democrat. (Also, they do actually have a slim chance at getting in now Labour is so unpopular.)
you do have a point, but lib dem are there for the people who just don't want to take sides, so they vote for them. The liberal democrats are just 'there', and IMO they don't pose a threat to either party. I'm going to vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party when I reach 18 :)
 
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christo930

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Exophase said:
atari_eric said:
The problem with that is (and it's worse now), is that for many people, the basic raw cost of living (just rent/food/basic utilities/travel to work,etc) is "beyond their means".
This is definitely not true for every location. In fact, if you live in a low rental cost area and can walk or take public transportation to work then even a relatively low paying full time job can be far more than you need for basic expenses. This doesn't apply to the big cities where housing is extremely expensive.


There are areas where the two mix. For example, there is an area in Philadelphia called Fairmount where the ultra rich and ultra poor are right there together. Old rusty Toyotas and Chevy Nova's bumper to bumper with BMW 7 series. Row homes selling for 1,000,000 and drug dealers on the corners. I used to be friends with a lady who bought a house there in the 80's and she was outside picking up needles and crack vials living next to a millionaire. One day someone left a note on her door saying they were interested in buying the house with an offer for over 900,000. The sad part is that there are a lot of older people in that area who are retired and the city is trying to raise their property taxes. Some are lucky. A friend of mine who owns a small construction outfit has to write up letters every couple of years explaining how much repair the house needs to have it's value raised. There are people living there for generations (the houses are very old) and don't want to sell, own them outright and the real estate taxes are killing them. It's strange.

Chris
 
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christo930

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Noisome said:
QUOTE
Oh God, I'm sure there's a name for that cognitive bias/logical fallacy. Of course even your mother is going to win the presidency if everyone votes for her, but that's not gonna happen because nobody would actually vote for her, and everybody and their momma (including yours) knows that.
There's a problem with that thinking. That is the mindset of someone who can't change the world. If people think its a wasted vote, as I've heard plenty of people say, then they are wrong. Some will vote for the "lesser of two evils" when they really want to vote for Nader or another candidate which is running for president, but have that same mindset. If no one wants McCain or Obama, then they should vote for someone else. Its people with that mindset who spread the mindset, and therefore are always for the top two no matter their own opinion as they think their opinion is worthless.

If you're voting for the lesser of two evils, stop it. A president shouldn't be "an evil" at all. Vote for one of the other choices out there. Nader is the only other one that will be on a majority of ballots, but there are plenty of write-ins to put in instead of "an evil".

Don't vote for who you don't want to vote for, that's all there is to it. Everyone's vote counts and the fewer who vote for someone who they don't want to win, the better, no matter how small or large. Eventually this argument will win out whether or not in my lifetime.


I think the last 2 presidential elections show that our votes really don't count. It's all a game, it's rigged and we loose every time. They all say something different and then get in and do the same thing. Red blue it doesn't matter. I remember looking up civil liberties and America now ranks like number 13 or 14. 2 million plus incarcerated, millions more on probation or parole. 800 fema camps, supposedly there in case of a massive influx on refugees from Mexico as their economy crashes. Even if your vote did count, it still wouldn't count, because there is nobody worth voting for. The list of candidates are prepared by the elite and you get to vote for a pre-picked candidate. Without the press and money nobody can get elected, especially without the press. Ron Paul had some money, but the press beat him up and made him look like a wasted vote and John McCain basically went uncontested and most states have laws forbidding someone from running as an independent after running in the primary on a party ticket.

No matter what these clowns say, nothing is going to change, unless getting worse counts as change.

Somebody mentioned Zeitgeist, I recommend America:From freedom to Fascism. It's on Youtube and also on it's website. There is also an interview with the films maker, Aaron Russo (The Rose, Trading Places...). An excelent film about the IRS and the direction America is headed.

Chris
 
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waffles

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Remember the pinkertons?
America doesnt really seem in that bad of a situation currently by comparison.
If you have no idea what im talking about, they were basically a PMC that "At its height, the Pinkerton National Detective Agency employed more agents than there were members of the standing army of the United States of America". They actually fought (and killed) strikers and unionists in open combat. Blackwater seems a lot better by comparison, eh?
 

senquack

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atari_eric said:
Senor Quack said:
People in the US had better start spending less than they earn. We used to save 10% of our income and now the average is zero. That is insanity.
The problem with that is (and it's worse now), is that for many people, the basic raw cost of living (just rent/food/basic utilities/travel to work,etc) is "beyond their means". It used to be the case in this country that a household could support itself with only one provider working one job. Someone could work two jobs and really get ahead. Nowadays, a two-job household is a requirement for survival, with a three-job household (one spouse works two jobs) required if there are any children involved.

How can someone put money into savings when merely existing costs more than any employer will pay? Save for a rainy day? A hurricane has been raging since the 80's.


The truth is we're making a lot more in modern dollars than we ever did in the earlier part of the last century. People just have found a thousand different new ways to spend it. Things you don't even think about, like having a car for all in the household, keeping the house at 70 degrees year-round, remodelling homes, spending ridiculous sums for private colleges for children, having a computer for everyone in the house + internet, having a television (much less 3) with cable, cell phones for everyone in the house, CD's, books off amazon instead of the library, new clothes each year (never mending old ones), bottled watter and organic food, etc etc etc.
 
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peelie

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...hmm I am sure you have missed something important in that modern age shopping list of yours Senor Quack?
....can't quite put my finger on it though... :)
 

telegramguy

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christo930 said:
I think the last 2 presidential elections show that our votes really don't count. It's all a game, it's rigged and we loose every time. They all say something different and then get in and do the same thing. Red blue it doesn't matter. I remember looking up civil liberties and America now ranks like number 13 or 14. 2 million plus incarcerated, millions more on probation or parole. 800 fema camps, supposedly there in case of a massive influx on refugees from Mexico as their economy crashes. Even if your vote did count, it still wouldn't count, because there is nobody worth voting for. The list of candidates are prepared by the elite and you get to vote for a pre-picked candidate. Without the press and money nobody can get elected, especially without the press. Ron Paul had some money, but the press beat him up and made him look like a wasted vote and John McCain basically went uncontested and most states have laws forbidding someone from running as an independent after running in the primary on a party ticket.

No matter what these clowns say, nothing is going to change, unless getting worse counts as change.

Somebody mentioned Zeitgeist, I recommend America:From freedom to Fascism. It's on Youtube and also on it's website. There is also an interview with the films maker, Aaron Russo (The Rose, Trading Places...). An excelent film about the IRS and the direction America is headed.

Chris
So with all of these observations... what do you do when you wake up everyday?
 
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Fat Agnus said:
christo930 said:
I think the last 2 presidential elections show that our votes really don't count. It's all a game, it's rigged and we loose every time. They all say something different and then get in and do the same thing. Red blue it doesn't matter. I remember looking up civil liberties and America now ranks like number 13 or 14. 2 million plus incarcerated, millions more on probation or parole. 800 fema camps, supposedly there in case of a massive influx on refugees from Mexico as their economy crashes. Even if your vote did count, it still wouldn't count, because there is nobody worth voting for. The list of candidates are prepared by the elite and you get to vote for a pre-picked candidate. Without the press and money nobody can get elected, especially without the press. Ron Paul had some money, but the press beat him up and made him look like a wasted vote and John McCain basically went uncontested and most states have laws forbidding someone from running as an independent after running in the primary on a party ticket.

No matter what these clowns say, nothing is going to change, unless getting worse counts as change.

Somebody mentioned Zeitgeist, I recommend America:From freedom to Fascism. It's on Youtube and also on it's website. There is also an interview with the films maker, Aaron Russo (The Rose, Trading Places...). An excelent film about the IRS and the direction America is headed.

Chris
So with all of these observations... what do you do when you wake up everyday?



Hope?
Actually if we had car engines running on Hope instead of gas, we would never have ecological issues: it's much cheaper and easier to produce. And plenty of people actually run on it even if in most of the cases, nothing never happens.

No, seriously. Even if one hnest guy reaches the head position, what is he gonna do? He is surrounded by croocked, corrupted guys. Supported by the same type and was risen to his position by them (vote is a joke because people are predictable: Anthropology and Psychology are sciences since ancient times.)
The situation is general. it is not just about U.S. any longer. The way the crisis spread shows it.
 
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A_SN

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jakshep2 said:
I got bored, so I did a (controversial) parody of David Bowies' song 'Modern Love' based on the situation here in the UK:

QUOTE

I vote for Gordon Brown
But things dont really change
I stand there losing cash
but I never cry

*snip*

I've gotta admit, your liberals suck over in the UK. I can't believe that the UK was run for the last 11 years by these guys. How can you be a liberal and make the country be so profoundly and increasingly libertarian? Oh well, not like they compare with Major or Twatcher, but still. (Disclaimer : I only have a superficial understanding of British politics).

nickspoon said:
it also means that you can't criticise people for voting for whom they want to be in power
Uh yes you can, it's called the freedom of speech. I can talk all the shit you want about your shitty shit ass shitty shit opinions :D. Nah jk your opinions are kewl.

@christo930 : "there is nobody worth voting for" God... can't you see the difference between Carter and Reagan? Between Clinton and either Bush? Between either Kennedy and Nixon? Oh booouh ooouh all the candidates are rich guys who went to fancy colleges. Big whoop, except that one of them wants to tax the rich and give you a free health care and the other one wants to deprive you of health care, privacy, habeas corpus, give tax breaks to the rich and to companies that outsource, raise your taxes and screw your economic situation. But no, let's focus on the oh so important fact that the media suppress what Ron Paul has to blither about regarding that gold standard non-sense.

I only hope you realise that your voice is just a powerless whiny voice that has no impact whatsoever anyways. People like you so don't want to be like sheeps that you'll just stay right where you stand and won't go anywhere. You guys should replace useless high school classes like sex education with more useful stuff like critical thinking. Maybe only then the political debate would raise above "look, my candidate is a secret muslim! omg Obama is one letter away from Osama! Hey look I've gotta be a good president, I was a POW for 5 years and a half! Hey look my VP is qualified, she can see Russia from where she lives if she goes in a balloon and looks through a good pair of binoculars! Hey women, vote for me, my VP has female genitalia just like you!!". Man if you can't tell the difference between that and Obama you're hopeless, you wouldn't know an Abe Lincoln from a Vladimir Putin if one was freeing you from your slave masters and the other one was kicking your ass with madd judo skillz and torturing your balls off in a secret gulag.

echidna said:
No, seriously. Even if one hnest guy reaches the head position, what is he gonna do? He is surrounded by croocked, corrupted guys.
Oh noes! Adversity! Let's just surrender, it's easier!! Wouldn't you have family from France by any chance?
 
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jakshep2

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A_SN said:
I've gotta admit, your liberals suck over in the UK. I can't believe that the UK was run for the last 11 years by these guys. (Disclaimer : I only have a superficial understanding of British politics).
you're right about your superficial understanding. the liberals have never led the UK. It's the Labour party you're talking about.

P.S: George Dubya hasn't exactly done a brilliant job, either.
 
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nickspoon

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A_SN said:
I've gotta admit, your liberals suck over in the UK. I can't believe that the UK was run for the last 11 years by these guys. How can you be a liberal and make the country be so profoundly and increasingly libertarian? Oh well, not like they compare with Major or Twatcher, but still. (Disclaimer : I only have a superficial understanding of British politics).

The Liberal Democrats (a merge of the Liberal Party and the Social Democratic Party) are the British 'liberal' party. Labour was, at one point, a socialist party, but now (calling itself New Labour) it is further right than the Tories.
 
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Hey! Bush did the best he could. 9/11 wasnt his fault. You can blame clinton for that. Bush had to clean up what clinton left behind. Example: Clinton decided to use a missile strike on a terrorist camp. He fired the millisles, some of them detonated and the middle easterners got the un detonated missiles and sold them to china. Furthermore, Clinton knew where bin laden was and failed to catch him even though he new where bin laden was. Also he cut military speding also cutting the cia and fbi spending which precipatated 9/11. So next time you decide to bash bush get the facts straight. Also, if bush is such a bad president how come everyone voted him back in the office again? <_<
 

christo930

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QUOTE
@christo930 : "there is nobody worth voting for" God... can't you see the difference between Carter and Reagan? Between Clinton and either Bush? Between either Kennedy and Nixon? Oh booouh ooouh all the candidates are rich guys who went to fancy colleges. Big whoop, except that one of them wants to tax the rich and give you a free health care and the other one wants to deprive you of health care, privacy, habeas corpus, give tax breaks to the rich and to companies that outsource, raise your taxes and screw your economic situation. But no, let's focus on the oh so important fact that the media suppress what Ron Paul has to blither about regarding that gold standard non-sense.

I only hope you realise that your voice is just a powerless whiny voice that has no impact whatsoever anyways. People like you so don't want to be like sheeps that you'll just stay right where you stand and won't go anywhere. You guys should replace useless high school classes like sex education with more useful stuff like critical thinking. Maybe only then the political debate would raise above "look, my candidate is a secret muslim! omg Obama is one letter away from Osama! Hey look I've gotta be a good president, I was a POW for 5 years and a half! Hey look my VP is qualified, she can see Russia from where she lives if she goes in a balloon and looks through a good pair of binoculars! Hey women, vote for me, my VP has female genitalia just like you!!". Man if you can't tell the difference between that and Obama you're hopeless, you wouldn't know an Abe Lincoln from a Vladimir Putin if one was freeing you from your slave masters and the other one was kicking your ass with madd judo skillz and torturing your balls off in a secret gulag.




First of all, I am referring to the current race and am going to confine my comments to what is going on now (unless for example). There is nobody worth voting for. Our foreign policy isn't going to change no matter who you vote for. For example... In 2006 American voters hit the big D button on the PROMISE of ending the war in Iraq. Instead of ending the war and cutting off the money supply, the newly elected Democrat congress gave Bush all the money he needed and no time limit as well. McCain has stated that he will not end the war in Iraq and will stay there as long as needed, even 100 years and if you think that's a joke, we are still in Korea and legally still at war with Korea under a cease fire agreement. over 50 years later. Obama will also not commit to bringing home the troops and ending the Iraq war. Neither party has a good energy policy, one that reduces consumption and puts serious money and effort into getting away from fossil fuels. It is almost certain that conventional oil has peaked and natural gas is only a few years away. Neither candidate has given any realistic plans to bring back jobs to our country. The economy is in deep, deep trouble. It's much, much bigger than what has been going on on Wall Street the past week or so. We are 9 trillion dollars in debt with long term obligations at more like 90 trillion. Socialized M-e-d a SIN is a dream. Obama favors socialized M-e-d a SIN, which sounds great, but where is the money going to come from? Our shrinking tax base? Will we borrow it from China (which is where the stimulus checks came from). Neither of them have talked about the return of the civil liberties we have lost in recent years. As far as Ron Paul goes, I don't agree with all his ideas, especially a gold standard which would never happen anyway. But, his over all message was one of real change. Get out of other countries, end the war in Iraq, follow the constitution, limit federal government, end the IRS (which is illegal anyway), get back to sound money. Is there anyone out there that REALLY believes that the middle east doesn't like us because of our freedoms? No, it's our foreign policy. This idea that people who supported Ron Paul are a bunch of loonies or hippies just isn't true.
The Federal Reserve answers to NOBODY, not Congress, not the president, not the supreme court. They meet in private with no oversight and make the decisions, secretly about the economic future of our nation. Has any Democrat or Republican talked about this problem? They lower the interest rate to keep the loans going, but the loans are created money, not lent money, which causes inflation. Now, we don't even know how much money there is out there because they have taken the numbers off of the market.

We maintain military bases in 130 countries, we are occupying 2 countries and are at war with N. Korea. Our military is spread too thin and at a cost we cannot afford. I am not saying we shouldn't step in when we need to, but our presence causes far more problems then it prevents. We are now just itching to attack Iran, who in the very recent past made every effort to normalize relations with the US, including recognizing Israel. They were instrumental in 2001-2002 efforts in Afghanistan and cooperated fully with the US government after 9/11.

Speaking of 9/11, there is a very sizable and growing number of people who are dissatisfied with the way 9/11 was handled. The 9/11 report is incomplete and offers NO EXPLANATION as to why building 7 collapsed. NORAD was a total failure on that day and not one person lost their job as a result. In fact, many people were promoted. Despite widespread spying and total disregard for Americans civil liberties, most experts agree that we are no safer than we were on 9/10/01.

The media is a total joke. A playboy centerfold od's on drugs (while in another country) and it's headline news for over a month. The citizens of the US OWN the airwaves, they are leased to the networks and they are supposed to have news programs as a public service as part of their lease agreement. We now get 30 second sound bytes on everything that is important and endless talk and reporting on things that are not. When Heath Ledger died it was on tv every single day for weeks. Headline news, when we are in an illegal war with Iraq.

Bush is a war criminal. He invaded a foreign nation, against the UN. Authorized torture of prisoners and a whole host of other war crimes. The democrats supported him and funded him. The democratic congress just sat there and did and said nothing as Bush signed executive orders taking away Habeas Corpus and Posse Comitatus.

During Katrina, the National Guard did a house to house search and confiscation of guns at a time when they were needed by their owners the most, STOMPING on their 2nd amendment rights. There was absolutely NO investigation of any kind, nor a call for one by any democrat or republican. For the record, these were law abiding citizens, in their own homes, not the looters. The tv coverage of it that I have seen showed them in a very wealthy looking neighborhood. What good is the right to bear arms, when the government takes them during the time you really need them?

In the end, neither candidate has made any serious commitments or plans to address any of our major problems. McCain promises more of the same. Obama hasn't talked addressed any of these issues or offered any real plan to deal with any of it. Just promises that he will. Shit, I can promise that I will solve America's problems if you vote for me. Beyond this, his personality is very distasteful. In his book, he shows how much of a racist he is. He even had the black panther party right on his home page before his campaign took off and it got down to him and Hillary. Even if this weren't a problem, he makes a lot of promises and offers no real plans on how he plans on doing them. So there really is no one to vote for if you want any real change and real solutions. All we are going to get is more debt, more jobs lost, more civil liberties lost, lower standard of living, longer working hours for less money and more promises.

Instead of name calling and insulting me, why don't you get informed? The democrats are no better than the republicans. We gave them their chance in 06 and they did NOTHING.

Chris

PS.. Why does the phrase [spam word] replace the word M-e-d a SIN when spelled correctly?
 
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christo930 said:
QUOTE
@christo930 : "there is nobody worth voting for" God... can't you see the difference between Carter and Reagan? Between Clinton and either Bush? Between either Kennedy and Nixon? Oh booouh ooouh all the candidates are rich guys who went to fancy colleges. Big whoop, except that one of them wants to tax the rich and give you a free health care and the other one wants to deprive you of health care, privacy, habeas corpus, give tax breaks to the rich and to companies that outsource, raise your taxes and screw your economic situation. But no, let's focus on the oh so important fact that the media suppress what Ron Paul has to blither about regarding that gold standard non-sense.

I only hope you realise that your voice is just a powerless whiny voice that has no impact whatsoever anyways. People like you so don't want to be like sheeps that you'll just stay right where you stand and won't go anywhere. You guys should replace useless high school classes like sex education with more useful stuff like critical thinking. Maybe only then the political debate would raise above "look, my candidate is a secret muslim! omg Obama is one letter away from Osama! Hey look I've gotta be a good president, I was a POW for 5 years and a half! Hey look my VP is qualified, she can see Russia from where she lives if she goes in a balloon and looks through a good pair of binoculars! Hey women, vote for me, my VP has female genitalia just like you!!". Man if you can't tell the difference between that and Obama you're hopeless, you wouldn't know an Abe Lincoln from a Vladimir Putin if one was freeing you from your slave masters and the other one was kicking your ass with madd judo skillz and torturing your balls off in a secret gulag.




First of all, I am referring to the current race and am going to confine my comments to what is going on now (unless for example). There is nobody worth voting for. Our foreign policy isn't going to change no matter who you vote for. For example... In 2006 American voters hit the big D button on the PROMISE of ending the war in Iraq. Instead of ending the war and cutting off the money supply, the newly elected Democrat congress gave Bush all the money he needed and no time limit as well. McCain has stated that he will not end the war in Iraq and will stay there as long as needed, even 100 years and if you think that's a joke, we are still in Korea and legally still at war with Korea under a cease fire agreement. over 50 years later. Obama will also not commit to bringing home the troops and ending the Iraq war. Neither party has a good energy policy, one that reduces consumption and puts serious money and effort into getting away from fossil fuels. It is almost certain that conventional oil has peaked and natural gas is only a few years away. Neither candidate has given any realistic plans to bring back jobs to our country. The economy is in deep, deep trouble. It's much, much bigger than what has been going on on Wall Street the past week or so. We are 9 trillion dollars in debt with long term obligations at more like 90 trillion. Socialized M-e-d a SIN is a dream. Obama favors socialized M-e-d a SIN, which sounds great, but where is the money going to come from? Our shrinking tax base? Will we borrow it from China (which is where the stimulus checks came from). Neither of them have talked about the return of the civil liberties we have lost in recent years. As far as Ron Paul goes, I don't agree with all his ideas, especially a gold standard which would never happen anyway. But, his over all message was one of real change. Get out of other countries, end the war in Iraq, follow the constitution, limit federal government, end the IRS (which is illegal anyway), get back to sound money. Is there anyone out there that REALLY believes that the middle east doesn't like us because of our freedoms? No, it's our foreign policy. This idea that people who supported Ron Paul are a bunch of loonies or hippies just isn't true.
The Federal Reserve answers to NOBODY, not Congress, not the president, not the supreme court. They meet in private with no oversight and make the decisions, secretly about the economic future of our nation. Has any Democrat or Republican talked about this problem? They lower the interest rate to keep the loans going, but the loans are created money, not lent money, which causes inflation. Now, we don't even know how much money there is out there because they have taken the numbers off of the market.

We maintain military bases in 130 countries, we are occupying 2 countries and are at war with N. Korea. Our military is spread too thin and at a cost we cannot afford. I am not saying we shouldn't step in when we need to, but our presence causes far more problems then it prevents. We are now just itching to attack Iran, who in the very recent past made every effort to normalize relations with the US, including recognizing Israel. They were instrumental in 2001-2002 efforts in Afghanistan and cooperated fully with the US government after 9/11.

Speaking of 9/11, there is a very sizable and growing number of people who are dissatisfied with the way 9/11 was handled. The 9/11 report is incomplete and offers NO EXPLANATION as to why building 7 collapsed. NORAD was a total failure on that day and not one person lost their job as a result. In fact, many people were promoted. Despite widespread spying and total disregard for Americans civil liberties, most experts agree that we are no safer than we were on 9/10/01.

The media is a total joke. A playboy centerfold od's on drugs (while in another country) and it's headline news for over a month. The citizens of the US OWN the airwaves, they are leased to the networks and they are supposed to have news programs as a public service as part of their lease agreement. We now get 30 second sound bytes on everything that is important and endless talk and reporting on things that are not. When Heath Ledger died it was on tv every single day for weeks. Headline news, when we are in an illegal war with Iraq.

Bush is a war criminal. He invaded a foreign nation, against the UN. Authorized torture of prisoners and a whole host of other war crimes. The democrats supported him and funded him. The democratic congress just sat there and did and said nothing as Bush signed executive orders taking away Habeas Corpus and Posse Comitatus.

During Katrina, the National Guard did a house to house search and confiscation of guns at a time when they were needed by their owners the most, STOMPING on their 2nd amendment rights. There was absolutely NO investigation of any kind, nor a call for one by any democrat or republican. For the record, these were law abiding citizens, in their own homes, not the looters. The tv coverage of it that I have seen showed them in a very wealthy looking neighborhood. What good is the right to bear arms, when the government takes them during the time you really need them?

In the end, neither candidate has made any serious commitments or plans to address any of our major problems. McCain promises more of the same. Obama hasn't talked addressed any of these issues or offered any real plan to deal with any of it. Just promises that he will. Shit, I can promise that I will solve America's problems if you vote for me. Beyond this, his personality is very distasteful. In his book, he shows how much of a racist he is. He even had the black panther party right on his home page before his campaign took off and it got down to him and Hillary. Even if this weren't a problem, he makes a lot of promises and offers no real plans on how he plans on doing them. So there really is no one to vote for if you want any real change and real solutions. All we are going to get is more debt, more jobs lost, more civil liberties lost, lower standard of living, longer working hours for less money and more promises.

Instead of name calling and insulting me, why don't you get informed? The democrats are no better than the republicans. We gave them their chance in 06 and they did NOTHING.

Chris

PS.. Why does the phrase [spam word] replace the word M-e-d a SIN when spelled correctly?

Bush is not a war criminal. :angry: WE were attacked by alquda who had a stronghold in iraq. If we didn't go to war there, we would be fighting all the terrorists here in the U.S Let me use a little thing about world war II. The japanese bombed the crap out of pearl harbor. We then declared war and we started to invade other countries to win the war, similarly, we were attcked at the world trade center on our soil.
 
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