Amaricas Entering A Possable Second Depression.

[noisome]

All of this "stuff" that is going down in the US is what actually needs to happen. Businesses are not losing money, they are losing an investment that didn't pay off. They're not in the hole, they borrowed too much. That is the economic principle of the whole of the US, buy more than "we" can afford then ask the people to pay for it.

That's what the US government does and that's what the businesses do. In all cases the people have to pay more. This NEEDS to happen in the US to bring everyone back down to normal levels. 1200sqft homes for $200,000 is obscene.

The foreclosures were necessary to bring the interest rates back up to normal levels and therefore reduce the prices of homes. Its business that tell the people you can afford $200,000 homes with a $1000 mortgage payment, but they fail to mention property taxes and home insurance payments that are tied in making it $1,400 a month payments. This and the media saying "Buy homes, buy homes! Its the right time to buy your home and this will never happen again with the low interests!" People got bit by the bug and bought a home they could barely afford before electricity.

And the people have to pay for companies who screwed people to get themselves into this spot. Funny how its turning out to be. (Btw, I bought a foreclosed home for $40,000, so I like the foreclosures).


Not to be political either, but take the corporation out of the government, vote Nader for President! Its not throwing away a vote if everyone votes for him, is it. Stop thinking like a corporation and think like a person, the way America use to run.

Peace,

Noisome

Edit:
PS The US is not going to enter into another "Great Depression". A recession of course and its a pretty hefty one, but the Federal Reserve has so much "money" that to enter a Depression would be so difficult it would be like getting the GP2X to run XBOX games at full speed. Not that it can't happen but it will be a long time in the making, giving you plenty of time to "jump ship".

 

[Nova]

I honestly don't know how you managed to spell America wrong quite so consistently.

 

[sam fisher]

I honestly don't know how you managed to spell America wrong quite so consistently.

He found a way...

 

[christo930]

This has been awhile coming, and if you think it's bad now, just wait

btw Zeitgeist is an awesome movie Also checkout Esoteric Agenda...

What I don't understand is how American's (and more exactly, their ruling class) doesn't realize what has to be done... instead they trod along in their self defeatist footsteps to their death Unfortunately they're gonna drag people like me (Canadians), and Mexicans with them by bringing in this whole American Union garbage :S

Then and again, if their controlling class didn't benefit monetarily from their citizens suffering it'd probably be a different story...

Wonder if they'll put McCain Fries, Obama Sin Laden or Hilary "Clit"on in charge of their country next, or if Bush'll pull a power move just in time to revoke his loss of power and establish a fascist dictatorial system...

America, indeed the world, is in for BIG changes. Energy scarcity/pricing played a large part in the housing bubble burst. Many experts believe that conventional oil production peaked in May of 2005. What wasn't expected is the plateau we've been on with oil. Now we have major institutions tanking or in serious trouble. Capital is becoming scarce and that limits growth. Our entire economy is based on growth and debt. Without growth our economy fails. Simplistically, money is created when you take a loan from the bank, that is contrary to popular belief, you are NOT borrowing other people's deposits. Problem is, only the LOAN amount is created, not the interest. When the economy stops growing, there is no way for people to pay the interest, because the interest was not created at the time the loan money was created. Consumers and businesses begin defaulting on their loans and now the people holding that bad debt are in big trouble. If I remember correctly Freddie and Fannie were both in trouble and the government bailed them out. But this can't go on forever. Things are really bad right now and getting worse, and I think it all goes back to the price and availability of oil. I just hope that they are able to do SOMETHING to keep this from turning into a meltdown. And don't let yesterday's rally fool you, there was a rally after black tuesday in 1929 and it did nothing to stop the meltdown.

The straw to break the Camels back could come in the form of Israel attacking Iran. It would almost certainly send oil to 300 a barrel if Iran retaliates and starts throwing missiles back at Israel and attempts to block the waterway. They have also threatened to hit the Saudi's with missiles if they are attacked for the purpose of disrupting the oil supply to the west.

The Atlantic Hurricane season isn't over and it's been bad so far. Much of the gulf's oil rigs are shut down as well as some of the refineries. Then there's the natural gas. Most Americans don't know this, but our largest supplier of oil is Canada and much of the oil they export to us comes from the tar sands. The tar sands need massive amounts of natural gas to heat the water to make steam to separate the oil from the sands and if there is any shortage of natural gas, then there will be a shortage of oil from Canada. I'm not sure if the hurricanes have affected natural gas production or not, but even if iti didn't a cold winter or an early winter could cause gas shortages as well.

Any of this could make wall streets' problems worse. But to be honest, peak oil scares me a lot more than anything. Even if we went into a depression, most people would get through it without starving to death. The same can't be said about peak oil. If there is a major diesel shortage, there will be no way to transport food. I live in a large city with no local food production. I would think the American government would restrict fuel if it ever came to that, so that food could be distributed, but how long could that go on without everything collapsing like a house of cards.

I'm not one for doomsaying, but I think we are at the beginning of some very hard times. If the world responds right, things will be ok. If not, things could get really bad.

Chris

 

[christo930]

Wonder if they'll put McCain Fries, Obama Sin Laden or Hilary "Clit"on in charge of their country next, or if Bush'll pull a power move just in time to revoke his loss of power and establish a fascist dictatorial system...

Do you actually think that Bush is actually interested in doing this, much less would actually be capable of pulling it off?


He did mention twice (that I know of) that he'd be OK with a dictatorship, just as long as he's the dictator.

Not that I believe he can pull it off. There does need to be a national emergency for him to suspend all federal elections and assume doctoral powers.

Chris

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

The foreclosures were necessary to bring the interest rates back up to normal levels and therefore reduce the prices of homes. Its business that tell the people you can afford $200,000 homes with a $1000 mortgage payment, but they fail to mention property taxes and home insurance payments that are tied in making it $1,400 a month payments. This and the media saying "Buy homes, buy homes! Its the right time to buy your home and this will never happen again with the low interests!" People got bit by the bug and bought a home they could barely afford before electricity.

That's correct. And don't forget the basic principle of supply and demand here. When there are 3 times more homes on the market than there are buyers for said homes, we have an issue. It doesn't help that this nation has a tenancy to become obsessed with building new houses and communities when there really isn't enough space for them to function the way they should. I know in Georgia, they build new subdivisions like crazy. Sure, there's a crapload of land that was previously occupied by redneck shantytowns, but the problem is that no one cares about the OTHER things necessary to have a successful community: roads, mass transit, markets, etc. One of the main issues here is the fact that there isn't enough transportation in Atlanta; thus, we have the worst traffic situations in the whole USA.

 

[sixtyfifthbit]

People in the US had better start spending less than they earn. We used to save 10% of our income and now the average is zero. That is insanity.

The problem with that is (and it's worse now), is that for many people, the basic raw cost of living (just rent/food/basic utilities/travel to work,etc) is "beyond their means". It used to be the case in this country that a household could support itself with only one provider working one job. Someone could work two jobs and really get ahead. Nowadays, a two-job household is a requirement for survival, with a three-job household (one spouse works two jobs) required if there are any children involved.

How can someone put money into savings when merely existing costs more than any employer will pay? Save for a rainy day? A hurricane has been raging since the 80's.

 

[DaveC]

This whole mess is related to the housing crisis.

The housing crisis is related to deregulation. Since congressmen like "forclosure" Phil Gramm (you know the guy that said that we are in a "mental recession")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Gramm#Ba...Mortgage_Crisis

Suceeded in deregulation it allowed loans to be made that shouldn't have. The result is the rich got richer, the rest got screwed. Banks can't get the money back that they loaned out for homes because the home values dropped to less than what the loan amount is for. Plus since banks don't have the money to loan out to other people anymore to buy a house, those forclosed houses don't sell putting more downward pressure on values. It is a viscious circle that can't be broken.

In deed the US is on the brink of economic collapse:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/washingt...agewanted=print

To those that don't live in the US you are not as safe as you think. A US economic collapse will have a domino effect to world economies.

 

[christo930]

The foreclosures were necessary to bring the interest rates back up to normal levels and therefore reduce the prices of homes. Its business that tell the people you can afford $200,000 homes with a $1000 mortgage payment, but they fail to mention property taxes and home insurance payments that are tied in making it $1,400 a month payments. This and the media saying "Buy homes, buy homes! Its the right time to buy your home and this will never happen again with the low interests!" People got bit by the bug and bought a home they could barely afford before electricity.

That's correct. And don't forget the basic principle of supply and demand here. When there are 3 times more homes on the market than there are buyers for said homes, we have an issue. It doesn't help that this nation has a tenancy to become obsessed with building new houses and communities when there really isn't enough space for them to function the way they should. I know in Georgia, they build new subdivisions like crazy. Sure, there's a crapload of land that was previously occupied by redneck shantytowns, but the problem is that no one cares about the OTHER things necessary to have a successful community: roads, mass transit, markets, etc. One of the main issues here is the fact that there isn't enough transportation in Atlanta; thus, we have the worst traffic situations in the whole USA.


You point out a MAJOR problem with planning here. In most of these developments, they are not even ALLOWED to open up any kind of commercial establishment. There aught to be a store in these developments so that residents can pick up the odds and ends needed day to day and they wouldn't HAVE to use the roads in the area for needs that could be handled locally. Most of these developments are multiple miles from the nearest supermarket and people end up driving all those miles to get milk and break when they could have bought them in their own communities. Something like a general store right in the community could help. But they do tend to put a lot of cars on the road for travel to/from work as well. The local townships love them because it gives them a new tax base, but they won't spend the money on infrastructure improvements. They want to have their cake and eat it too. It's amazing how many houses they can put on one closed down farm, or one small area of wilderness.

Chris

 

[A_SN]

Not to be political either, but take the corporation out of the government, vote Nader for President! Its not throwing away a vote if everyone votes for him, is it. Stop thinking like a corporation and think like a person, the way America use to run.

Oh God, I'm sure there's a name for that cognitive bias/logical fallacy. Of course even your mother is going to win the presidency if everyone votes for her, but that's not gonna happen because nobody would actually vote for her, and everybody and their momma (including yours) knows that. That's something I'll never understand, how can people be so thick to fail to see that small candidates really favour the candidate the farthest from them on the political spectrum by attracting the candidates the closest to him? And why do people keep voting for such candidates, besides of course blithering idiots who are too blind to spot a single difference between either of the two main candidates, knowing that their little candidate is bound to lose anyways? Or is it a "fuck you" statement? Well we received that statement very clearly in 2000, Nader voter.

People just don't get it, technically you have the choice between several candidates, but in reality it's a dichotomy, there's only two valid choices, well actually there's a third choice (although arguably a non-choice), which is not having any influence on the outcome. It doesn't matter whether you vote Nader or if you don't get out of your house on voting day, the president is either going to be Obama or McCain, not choosing either of them is not choosing. Choose the lesser of two evils, and if you can't tell which of Obama or McCain-Palin (I'm mentioning her because of McCain's chances to die in office) would be the best for your interests and the interest of your country, then you probably deserve what's coming your way anyways. Just shut up when you'll see Palin the hockey mom-president soiling her pants when she'll face Vladimir Putin.

That was a bit off-topic but that had to be said.

 

[Goity]

But I suppose it's not really much of a choice either way when you've got a complete liar on one side, and a zombie-pitbull team on the other.

 

[Exophase]

The problem with that is (and it's worse now), is that for many people, the basic raw cost of living (just rent/food/basic utilities/travel to work,etc) is "beyond their means".

This is definitely not true for every location. In fact, if you live in a low rental cost area and can walk or take public transportation to work then even a relatively low paying full time job can be far more than you need for basic expenses. This doesn't apply to the big cities where housing is extremely expensive.

 

[echidna]

Well, I'm not living in US nor Canada nor UK but in France. But the situation is pretty much the same. I've been living in Hungary for the past 4 years. (What/Where is Hungary ? JFGI )
It was the same over there too. I could how people were making through life and i could see problems we are facing from miles away - People even started to tell me that i was a fraud prophet, serve them right. My mom i s currently work at 2 places on night shifts while almost not sleeping on day time so she can find the best deals for food, clothing, etc.
My girlfriend in Hungary ( The situation there make no sense at all. IT IS RIDICULOUS) was working 5 jobs - you read it well - so she could pay her bills, eat something, pay the mortage for the flat she brought, pay the food for the dogs and care for everyone. What was i doing? Studying (40 hours of lectures/week doesn't really leave room for work, doing petty jobs to help her and my parents paying my school). What was left from all of this was drained out for flat renovation. My case described here is a bit extreme, i'll give you that but i know plenty of people who are living in such kind of situation and this is getting worse.

The fact is: If we real want a change, we have to change the way we think. No capitalism, No communism, no socialism, no dictatorship, no royalism, no bullshitism. Only find ways to solve problems and prevent them from happening. Which nowhere close our behaviour right now. The tendancy rather be "I do MY stuff and try my best to get away with it." Capitalism is a cristalisation of this way of life since one (or a group of few individuals) can gather as much as he can despite the fact that may endanger other people way of life.
One good example is what they call "Commerce Equitable" (Fair Trade)in France which consists in buying stuff -like coffee, cotton or cacao -directly from farmers (often african ones) to a "better" price than before. One french humourist had that very funny sentence "If this product is brought under 'Fair Trade' license, does that mean that every product not under this license is under the 'Fu*ker Up Trade' one ?"
It tells everything.

If you observe nature, you often realise that everything that grows over a certain limit without changing it's internal structure is bound to collapse. That goes for every instance, system, concept or community. Without even goint too far: Earth is a sphere so there is nothing like infinite growth whether it's demographical, Economical or Geographical. WE HAVE TO CHANGE. But not only the system. The way we live and think (about ourselves and about the others and everything which is not us.)

The global philosophy is "Take the money and Run". And we ALL (I said ALL) live along that thought. As long as it's like this there is no way out.


A bon entendeur, salut

 

[noisome]

QUOTE
Oh God, I'm sure there's a name for that cognitive bias/logical fallacy. Of course even your mother is going to win the presidency if everyone votes for her, but that's not gonna happen because nobody would actually vote for her, and everybody and their momma (including yours) knows that.


There's a problem with that thinking. That is the mindset of someone who can't change the world. If people think its a wasted vote, as I've heard plenty of people say, then they are wrong. Some will vote for the "lesser of two evils" when they really want to vote for Nader or another candidate which is running for president, but have that same mindset. If no one wants McCain or Obama, then they should vote for someone else. Its people with that mindset who spread the mindset, and therefore are always for the top two no matter their own opinion as they think their opinion is worthless.

If you're voting for the lesser of two evils, stop it. A president shouldn't be "an evil" at all. Vote for one of the other choices out there. Nader is the only other one that will be on a majority of ballots, but there are plenty of write-ins to put in instead of "an evil".

Don't vote for who you don't want to vote for, that's all there is to it. Everyone's vote counts and the fewer who vote for someone who they don't want to win, the better, no matter how small or large. Eventually this argument will win out whether or not in my lifetime.

 

[A_SN]

But I suppose it's not really much of a choice either way when you've got a complete liar on one side, and a zombie-pitbull team on the other.

Well at least from my comment you already know what I think about you and your opinion.

 

[Goity]

But I suppose it's not really much of a choice either way when you've got a complete liar on one side, and a zombie-pitbull team on the other.

Well at least from my comment you already know what I think about you and your opinion.



Not that it really matters, seeing as I live in the UK and not the US, but I'd say that McCain is the lesser of two evils right now. Even though he's an old maniac who may try to reenact the Hundred years war or whichever one he was in, and has that crazy batch for a vice president, at least he doesn't talk as much unworkable bullshit as Obama.

 

[A_SN]

QUOTE
Oh God, I'm sure there's a name for that cognitive bias/logical fallacy. Of course even your mother is going to win the presidency if everyone votes for her, but that's not gonna happen because nobody would actually vote for her, and everybody and their momma (including yours) knows that.

There's a problem with that thinking. That is the mindset of someone who can't change the world. If people think its a wasted vote, as I've heard plenty of people say, then they are wrong. Some will vote for the "lesser of two evils" when they really want to vote for Nader or another candidate which is running for president, but have that same mindset. If no one wants McCain or Obama, then they should vote for someone else. Its people with that mindset who spread the mindset, and therefore are always for the top two no matter their own opinion as they think their opinion is worthless.

If you're voting for the lesser of two evils, stop it. A president shouldn't be "an evil" at all. Vote for one of the other choices out there. Nader is the only other one that will be on a majority of ballots, but there are plenty of write-ins to put in instead of "an evil".

Don't vote for who you don't want to vote for, that's all there is to it. Everyone's vote counts and the fewer who vote for someone who they don't want to win, the better, no matter how small or large. Eventually this argument will win out whether or not in my lifetime.

You hippies need to get pragmatic. It's not because a handful of you decided to "change the world" that anyone else is going to agree to do the same thing as you. And both candidates are only "evils" when you're a blithering hippie who always has to see the cure to all problems in unobtainable solutions. I'd be curious to know how you guys think that Nader is the silver bullet.

Anyways, the thing is, most people WANT either McCain or Obama. Most people don't want any fucking independent, and mostly not Nader. Quit making it sound like we're oppressed by two choices that nobody actually wants, these two ARE what we actually want, well, the majority of people that is. So Nader is never going to win anything because hardly anyone wants to see anyone like him in the White House anyways. You only represent an obnoxious minority who is as loud as powerless and delusional. You need to understand that.

Surely it's commendable to vote for who you honestly really want to vote for, but that's stupid. That's why I said to get pragmatic instead of idealistic. You voted for Nader instead of Al Gore in 2000 (or at least most Nader voters did), George W. Bush won, and doom and chaos ensued. Can't you in retrospect look at that election and say "hey if we Nader voters had voted for our second choice in 2000 we could have avoid the trainwreck that was Bush's two terms"?

Why waste a lifetime of voting power to only find out that in 60 years from now you'll still have two big parties? Take a look around, that's how it is everywhere else! In Canada, in the UK, in Ireland, in France, in Germany, it's always about the conservatives vs the liberals. Sure in lots of these countries you'll find other parties, but all they ever do is eat their closest neighbour's piece of the pie! That's how Canada was lost to some conservative douchebag, that's how the French left wing is so damn weak, that's how you end up with fuckups like Berlusconni, and so on.. You need to realise that an alternative to the two big parties is not the solution, it's the problem. Unity on both sides of the political spectrum is the only thing to wish for to obtain a result that reflects what people really want. In France we found the solution to the independant problem anyways by having a two stage election, the second stage being the two winners of the first stage, this way you inevitably (except in 2002) get to choose between one of the two big parties. And like I said, an independent only makes the one party the farthest from him on the political spectrum the strongest.

No seriously, blame anything that's happened within the last 8 years on yourself, because that's your fault, really.

 

[echidna]

I agree with Noisome when he says that we should not vote for the lesser of two evils but A_SN is right: Take an "alternative" is not a solution 'cause he might also reveal himself as useless if not worse than the others. However, we have to admit: none of our leader, wherever we go, have guts for changes that benefit most of the population. An old african saying: never order a dog to watch over a piece of meat.

It is just a matter of time: We are screwed.

Full stop.

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

Not that it really matters, seeing as I live in the UK and not the US, but I'd say that McCain is the lesser of two evils right now. Even though he's an old maniac who may try to reenact the Hundred years war or whichever one he was in, and has that crazy batch for a vice president, at least he doesn't talk as much unworkable bullshit as Obama.

Oh God. Look, I know it's usually near impossible to sway peoples' political choices, but PLEASE look at this objectively.

First off, Obama will be the first black president if elected. From what we gather, he's proud of who he is (being half white half black, sometimes a person will choose one race over the other). He has the chance to prove to this world that he, a black man, can be a phenomenal president. Why would he screw this up? Look, I don't love the man, but he's brilliant, and you have to give him credit for that. No one in their right mind would fuck up the chance to prove that their race is capable of running a massive country. He also has Biden, (who I also don't "love", but whatever), who has tons of experience and can balance out the ticket to some degree.

On the other hand, you have McCain, a war hero. Sure, he has experience, but you need to remember that he's OLD. Saying that his VP pick is a "crazy batch" is an understatement. She's a religious nutcase, she's a shitty mother, she's an animal hunting hypocrite who wants to shoot wolves from the sky, she's been CAUGHT conducting government business under her personal email address (ILLEGAL), and she allows her husband in on government meetings. This woman is not qualified to be a VP.....much less the President; and there's a fair chance she'll take over if McCain dies in office.

Oh, and McCain met her ONE TIME. Deep down, I don't think even he suspects she's capable of being a good VP.

 

[jakshep2]

I got bored, so I did a (controversial) parody of David Bowies' song 'Modern Love' based on the situation here in the UK:

QUOTE

I vote for Gordon Brown
But things dont really change
I stand there losing cash
but I never cry

But I try, I try

I vote for Gordon Brown
But things dont really change
I stand there losing cash
but I never cry

But I try, I try

Never gonna vote for
Gordon Brown - Labour party
Gordon Brown - Credit Crunch
Gordon Brown - Leader of the government
Government - terrifies me
Government - elected party
Government - put my trust in David C
David C - Privatisation
David C - Tory bastard
David C - dont believe in common man

Its not really work
Its just the power to lie
They stand there making wind
But I think they should fly

They should try, just try.

Never gonna vote for
Gordon Brown - Labour party
Gordon Brown - Credit Crunch
Gordon Brown - Leader of the government
Government - terrifies me
Government - elected party
Government - put my trust in David C
David C - Privatisation
David C - Tory bastard
David C - dont believe in common man

Never gonna vote for
Gordon Brown - Labour party
Gordon Brown - Credit Crunch
Gordon Brown - Leader of the government
Government - terrifies me
Government - elected party
Government - put my trust in David C
David C - "No recession"
David C - Lying bastard
David C - dont believe in common man

Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown,
Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown, Gordon Brown,

Gordon Brown - Labour party
Gordon Brown - Credit Crunch
Gordon Brown - Labour party
Gordon Brown - Credit Crunch
Never gonna vote for
Never gonna vote for