All the nubs are there! (2011 - 01 - 11)


I can confirm that I'm happy with the new Pandora consoles. Out of the 550 there were 10 (TEN) units which were faulty - 3 of which I know I can fix and another 6 I think Ed will be able to bring back to life.


Not bad.


Also - not a single bad nub.


The dream is alive boys.

So what was wrong with the (apparently) unfixable one? Just curious.


You know, I've been thinking... Pandora's box was opened, and according to my very vast knowledge of Greek mythology (I read Antigone once in highschool), opening that box caused a sh*tstorm of problems down here on Earth.


You guys should have SERIOUSLY named this thing something else... Maybe 'apace' woulda been a good name. We would have all had our Apace consoles like, two hours after preordering!


Damn, I think that was the lamest joke I've ever told. :(
 
How fast are they going out now, then? How long do we think it'll be before this batch is finished? It's not just for me that I'm asking this time, there's someone else I know who's interested in buying one, but doesn't think it's really worth ordering one until they're closer to production.
 
I was under the impression that you were going to start progress with a new company regardless, as a backup, in case sh!t happened again (it always does). Better to have two places going, so things don't come to a screeching halt if there's miscommunication again. Weren't you at least a month into planning with the new place? Why the change of heart?

Maybe I misunderstood you there but I'll try it anyway:


I don't think it would be doable to start a second place building boards. Where would the money for such a order come from? And what if BOTH companies finish boards? It would be double the payment...


Also, I seem to recall ED saying he would consider switching the board company only if they won't work as planned and promised. Which they did.
 
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Haven't we learned anything from the past two years? "Should be available when we give a call" usually means there will be additional delays. Under what circumstances will you give the green light? How much advance notice needs to be given?

Well, tell me where the parts should be delivered right now.


If CC continues with the production like they did the last two weeks, there's no need to switch the company. Never change a running system.


If there will be more problems, we'll have to switch the company and the parts are needed there.


Shipping that massive amount of parts incl. custom payments, etc. is about 20.000 USD at least. Moving them to a new production site would mean the same costs again.


Do you want to cover those?


The parts have been ordered, are reserved and will be delivered when needed. That's the only thing that makes sense.

I was under the impression that you were going to start progress with a new company regardless, as a backup, in case sh!t happened again (it always does). Better to have two places going, so things don't come to a screeching halt if there's miscommunication again. Weren't you at least a month into planning with the new place? Why the change of heart?

Well, CC didn't do anything for a while, that's the reason we wanted to switch.


If they work reliable now, there's no need to switch.


Producing in two places at once is a nice thing, but it costs more money as well.

Other transparency? I've still seen no official update about the status of the TV cables, despite seeing the question many times - you'd said they would be green-lighted after CC sent out more boards. Have they?

I said they would be green-lighted when I see that CC is really working reliable.


Nothing has happened yet on the TV Cables, so what should I update? There's no missing transparency, but nothing has happened yet.


I'm stuffed with work right now and want to see at least ONE more big shipment from CC to see they REALLY are working now and that this wasn't just a quick peak.

I'd also really like to know what the resolution with CC was after the fiasco a month ago. What was their official statement? Clearly, something must've happened right, because OPT was ready to leave as soon as the replacement was set up. Or maybe it's the same as when you were finding a replacement for the case company, and then mysteriously decided not to, anymore.

I can't remember that anyone said we want to find a replacement for the case company, sorry.


I know we said once we can afford it, we'll move the case production probably to UK, the same company that does the iCP cases. But that's it.


If CC learned from that fiasco and is producing boards as they should in good quality in speed, I'm fine with that.

It's been a month (that's right, a whole month!) since the CC fiasco. We *still* don't have a revised schedule yet? And now you've stopped looking at alternatives. I just don't under it. I'd like to hear their response about the whole thing, but if, for some reason, you can't tell us, can you at least tell us if it was a *good* (read: DAMN good) excuse? What did TI say when you updated them about it, like you said you would do?

TI is talking with CC two times a week to push them.


We did stop looking for alternatives months ago, since we already have an alternative and they could start Pandora production within 3 weeks.


CC can only create a revised schedule when they really have ALL the parts needed the production - and they just got the remaining nubs two days ago and are working on a new schedule now.


How could they create a schedule when they didn't know when they have all the parts needed?
 
If CC continues with the production like they did the last two weeks, there's no need to switch the company. Never change a running system.


If there will be more problems, we'll have to switch the company and the parts are needed there.
Completely agree. There were issues with production delay, they were explained, discussions occurred, problems are sorted. These are all normal parts of a company life. It looks like they're doing a good job now, why would you change?


We (the vast majority of users here) continue to support OpenPandora and you ED, as well as we trust your choices. Don't let despair sneak in, the light at the end of the tunnel is getting closer and closer :)
 
Maybe I misunderstood you there but I'll try it anyway:


I don't think it would be doable to start a second place building boards. Where would the money for such a order come from? And what if BOTH companies finish boards? It would be double the payment...


Also, I seem to recall ED saying he would consider switching the board company only if they won't work as planned and promised. Which they did.

That's easy - you split up the work. It's a trial - you get both to do a couple thousand, and pick the one who was nicest, fastest, cheapest (hopefully not), or whatever your preference is. If one is really slow, you have the other company's work to tide you over, and start shipping, and know who to pick. If both are fast, you're done quickly, and if both are slow, you're not too worse off than before, but you have better odds of starting up quickly with *one* of the companies, after whatever delays are over.


And no, ED was definitely in talks with the alternative company, because he said it would take several months to get all the details ironed out and everything set up (don't have time to find that quote right now, perhaps someone else will help out). Waiting until you've given up on the first company is suicide, because you've just added another two month delay after you've decided to give up (which takes a while), which is still more time without Pandoras in the hands of customers. If you need to hedge your bet, what better way than spreading out the risk?

Well, tell me where the parts should be delivered right now.


If CC continues with the production like they did the last two weeks, there's no need to switch the company. Never change a running system.


If there will be more problems, we'll have to switch the company and the parts are needed there.


Shipping that massive amount of parts incl. custom payments, etc. is about 20.000 USD at least. Moving them to a new production site would mean the same costs again.


Do you want to cover those?


The parts have been ordered, are reserved and will be delivered when needed. That's the only thing that makes sense.

Well, I still maintain that CC has messed you around enough enough that you should at least be looking elsewhere, for comparison. Send 1-2000 sets of parts over to the new place, and have them make a go at it. It's a trial, no need to over commit. Best case? They're a lot faster, more reliable, and with this knowledge you can switch over ASAP. You use the boards they made for the remainder of batch 1. Worst case? They're about the same or slower (hard to believe right now), and you use them for the end of batch 2. I suppose if you're going to be dead-set on not switching until you're 100% certain CC is *always* going to give you the run-around, not keeping the parts in a holding pattern is the best bet. But then again, you might as well just ship them to CC, since it seems you'll always have doubts.

Well, CC didn't do anything for a while, that's the reason we wanted to switch.


If they work reliable now, there's no need to switch.


Producing in two places at once is a nice thing, but it costs more money as well.

It also is a much better guarantee that parts will actually get done, and makes both companies work that much harder to compete and not lose your business. Otherwise, CC just gets complacent. I still think that past evidence, especially with no explanation (or was there one??) has been pretty unreliable. And the comparison - *any* comparison - gives you a much needed reference point.


You also said as much, once. (See the last block) "We're rather prepared to have them ready for a production in Taiwan in case they are faster than the company in Texas with production."

I said they would be green-lighted when I see that CC is really working reliable.


Nothing has happened yet on the TV Cables, so what should I update? There's no missing transparency, but nothing has happened yet.


I'm stuffed with work right now and want to see at least ONE more big shipment from CC to see they REALLY are working now and that this wasn't just a quick peak.

Your words "As soon as I see the next big shipment from CC (at least 500 boards), I'm going to place the order and should get them 4 - 6 weeks later." We've now seen more than 500 boards shipped, because Craig's built 550. At least I now know what you're waiting for. Thanks for the update.

I can't remember that anyone said we want to find a replacement for the case company, sorry.


I know we said once we can afford it, we'll move the case production probably to UK, the same company that does the iCP cases. But that's it.

It was partly that, and partly the fact that the Chinese company was jerking you around and missing deadlines, not sending pictures as requested, and wouldn't respond to email/calls (sound familiar?). You wanted to dump them as soon as they were done with this run of cases, and were working on a replacement:


(Craig's twitter)


Going to visit a factory in Scotland next month to see if we can bring more of the Pandora production to the UK.


Sat Mar 20 2010 22:10:19 (Eastern Daylight Time) via web


I can't find the exact quotes right now, but I know you were very unhappy with the turnaround times and lack of communication from the company. And now, recently, you've said you have no problem with them, and will continue to use them. My, how memory can dull the pain.

If CC learned from that fiasco and is producing boards as they should in good quality in speed, I'm fine with that.


TI is talking with CC two times a week to push them.

And what did they learn from the fiasco? Have they made any promises to act differently in the future? What was their response/explanation? Send me a PM if you don't want it posted publicly - I guarantee I won't post or forward it to anyone else. But your lack of response to the question is a pretty big red flag to me - it says that they *didn't* give an answer (or at least not a half-decent one). And that disturbs me even more.

We did stop looking for alternatives months ago, since we already have an alternative and they could start Pandora production within 3 weeks.

Sure; you had an alternative, so you stopped looking for other alternatives. But now it sounds like you stopped the initial planning with the replacement board company and I still can't understand why. You said it would take several months to set up production with them, and now it's down to a few weeks. Why are we stopping after that work?

CC can only create a revised schedule when they really have ALL the parts needed the production - and they just got the remaining nubs two days ago and are working on a new schedule now.


How could they create a schedule when they didn't know when they have all the parts needed?

They have all the parts, except the nubs. So they can make all the boards, minus soldering the nubs, which are separate, anyway. They can very easily make a schedule that has two estimates, conditional on when they receive the nubs. If they get nubs before <DATE1>, all boards will be ready on <DATE2>. If they get the nubs later than <DATE1> they will have been working on the boards in the interim, so those should be still done by <DATE2> (or earlier), and then everything will be ready <DELTA> days after the nubs are received. Season to taste. It's the kind of schedule we should have gotten from them back in August, when the nubs were pending.

Completely agree. There were issues with production delay, they were explained, discussions occurred, problems are sorted. These are all normal parts of a company life. It looks like they're doing a good job now, why would you change?

Completely disagree. Telling us they've made the boards when they haven't is not part of normal company life. And while we surmised about why they might have done this, I'm still waiting to hear an official reply from either OPT or CC as to the real reason it happened. I reserve (some) of my judgement until after I hear, but the longer it takes, the worse my judgement (without the information) becomes.

We (the vast majority of users here) continue to support OpenPandora and you ED, as well as we trust your choices. Don't let despair sneak in, the light at the end of the tunnel is getting closer and closer :)

I second supporting OPT. I support many of their choices, but when I question some, it's because I think they have an opportunity (chance? obligation?) to be even better, and not spend so much time circling the drain.
 
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But why are you so personally offended or concerned with their choices?
 
My respects to the people that move this project but please I think we need solid information about WHEN will the units arrive to our homes. If you can't properly estimate it just give it a worse case that's all.

They will arrive in exactly 2 month... unfortunatly, this counter is reset once every day.
 
So what was wrong with the (apparently) unfixable one? Just curious.


You know, I've been thinking... Pandora's box was opened, and according to my very vast knowledge of Greek mythology (I read Antigone once in highschool), opening that box caused a sh*tstorm of problems down here on Earth.


You guys should have SERIOUSLY named this thing something else... Maybe 'apace' woulda been a good name. We would have all had our Apace consoles like, two hours after preordering!


Damn, I think that was the lamest joke I've ever told. :(

Well, glad we didn't name it Icarus, then we would have to exclude shipping by air.
 
Are the boards with the newly recieved nubs bieng built or are they planning on building them ?
 
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Will a lot more nubs come in? Is it reasonable to assume that if my nubs on a first batch Pandora break, OP will replace with the new nubs? Perhaps if this seems unreasonable, I could pay a small fee for the new nubs when I send for repair under the warranty. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm sure the Chinese company could produce the nubs much more easily in greater quantities than other parts. This could make a lot of first batch users with bad nubs happy.
 
Hey Benji,


Is it me or did you not preorder? It just seems to me that you have no concept as to how a supply system actually works. Its called money. That is all I have for you. It perplexes me as to how you have such a hard on for CC and some type of explanation or apology. The fact of the matter is that they are doing what they've been and are being paid to do. Doing nothing with someones resources and telling them that you are doing something with their resources by allowing them to take up space in your warehouse is progress. I think you ask too many questions, but more importantly you ask the wrong ones repeatedly. I think ED is better off working on other things than holding your hand through this.
 
So what was wrong with the (apparently) unfixable one? Just curious.


You know, I've been thinking... Pandora's box was opened, and according to my very vast knowledge of Greek mythology (I read Antigone once in highschool), opening that box caused a sh*tstorm of problems down here on Earth.


You guys should have SERIOUSLY named this thing something else... Maybe 'apace' woulda been a good name. We would have all had our Apace consoles like, two hours after preordering!


Damn, I think that was the lamest joke I've ever told. :(

The population machine seems to have missed off several parts. It's unfixable here.
 
snip-snip

Me thinks you have very limited experience of PCB/product manufacture. Splitting the production would be the best way to ensure both options fail. Keep the options open, make today's decisions based on best information available now, not what seemed like a good idea last year.
 
Completely agree. There were issues with production delay, they were explained, discussions occurred, problems are sorted. These are all normal parts of a company life. It looks like they're doing a good job now, why would you change?
Completely disagree. Telling us they've made the boards when they haven't is not part of normal company life. And while we surmised about why they might have done this, I'm still waiting to hear an official reply from either OPT or CC as to the real reason it happened. I reserve (some) of my judgement until after I hear, but the longer it takes, the worse my judgement (without the information) becomes.
Of course it is! Like you, I don't like it, but it's common practice and they do that all the time. You seem to believe your business partner is your friend. Well, sorry to break your bubble, it's not. It just cares for profit, and will do whatever it thinks is appropriate to optimise its business at any given time. Obviously at that time, CC didn't really trust OP to actually make it, and who could blame them? There are many stories of failures on that kind of business.


Now that OP proved to them they could be valuable as partners, a relation of trust and mutual profit has been created, and they will do whatever they can to keep OP as a customer. That is called capitalism, you might like it or not, but it's the economic world we're living in.
 
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