A Plea To Gp32x Posters...

[TrevorBradley]

I'm not going to get into causes, but the tone of the forums is turning sour. Factions of "I'm concerned about the lack of info" vs "I'm getting sick of all the repetitive request for information posts" are forming. Each have legitimate concerns but deep divisions are forming between them. Chip is doing his best to keep the forums from erupting into an all out flame war and panic fest, but resolving this is going to take more than the work of one person. We've all got to resolve to work together to help the situation.

I would love to see the Pandora community as a thriving community of Linux UMPC and gaming enthusiasts, working together to create awesome software for our device and bring more bright and enthusiastic minds into the community. I was eagerly looking forward to developing games and applications for the Pandora community to continue the work I started on the GP2X. But lately my enthusiasm for the community has been waning and I'm shying away from such projects. I don't like that feeling and want to take active steps to turn things around for myself and everyone else.

Here is my plea: Recognize that there's a lot of enthusiasm for the project, and that most people here are new and will ask the same questions over and over again. If people ask for more information (again) politely redirect them to the sticky. Understand that not all the information on Pandora development is here and that the people you're directing your frustrations to don't have all the answers.. There's a reason why the "sick of repetitive request" folks are so frustrated. Abstain completely from personal attacks, and try to keep mockery to a minimum. Sarcasm is venomous at the moment. Recognize that people are getting frustrated here and a quick reply made out of frustration is likely going to set someone else off and have a snowballing effect.

I hope we can work together to make these forums awesome again.

In the spirit of this post, try to keep responses here positive... let's see if this thread can stay open for a while.

 

[gahndalf]

I am Barack Obama /Copydir and i approve this message.

 

[(naw)mcx]

SHUTY UPS I LOOSTT MYYY MONNEEYSS, CRAAIGG IS LYYINGGGGGGGG!!!!1101010


But really, every one, be nice plz. The pandora is under control, k?

Learn something from him

 

[TrevorBradley]

SHUTY UPS I LOOSTT MYYY MONNEEYSS, CRAAIGG IS LYYINGGGGGGGG!!!!1101010



This is precisely the kind of sarcastic message I'm concerned about (naw)mcx. It invalidates what a lot of people are feeling, diminishes the seriousness of the conversation, and is more grating than you might imagine.

As I said in my post, sarcasm is venomous right now. Please try to tone it down.

Peace.

 

[Angel]

this is one of the main reasons why I just quit posting for the last 2 years.

 

[scarath]

@ OP

This is the internet, haven't you got used to it yet?

If noobs ask stupid questions they deserve to be shot down. Sarcasm and well placed criticism can be a good thing.

This project is practically an amateur hardware project that got lots of buzz and attracted a bunch of whining losers.

Someone on this forum put it best (i forget who) when they used that old phrase; 'if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen'

People should just stop saying stupid things. This is a specialist forum, people who don't know anything should stop posting or do some research.

If noobs want to become part of something they should make an effort, spoon feeding them will do the community no good.

 

[mmcg]

Is it really too much to ask for some information on the product you've just paid £200 for without even seeing so much as a picture of a real one?

 

[TrevorBradley]

@ OP

This is the internet, haven't you got used to it yet?

If noobs ask stupid questions they deserve to be shot down. Sarcasm and well placed criticism can be a good thing.

This project is practically an amateur hardware project that got lots of buzz and attracted a bunch of whining losers.

Someone on this forum put it best (i forget who) when they used that old phrase; 'if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen'

People should just stop saying stupid things. This is a specialist forum, people who don't know anything should stop posting or do some research.

If noobs want to become part of something they should make an effort, spoon feeding them will do the community no good.

NO! NO NO NO.

Please please listen. I beg you all who want to scare away new users because they're "noobs" to listen to my words for a moment.

By being aggressive towards forum users:
You are causing harm the community.
You are reducing the amount of software you will eventually (or could potentially) see on the Pandora.
You are harming the Pandora's future success.

Some of those new users are potential future developers. Some people are highly skilled lurking in the forums to see if participating is worth their time. The next Ruckage. The next Senor Quack. The next Pickle.. You're treating them like shit and telling them to piss off. They're not going to come back.

Pretend for an instant that your sarcastic comments actually caused the Pandora to have less ram, say 64 megs. That's what harming the community is effectively doing, reducing what Pandora can do for you because with less developers there will be less awesome software to run on your device.

Please please stop what you are doing. You are breaking this community apart. You are ruining the very thing you've been eagerly waiting for.

(next post)

Is it really too much to ask for some information on the product you've just paid £200 for without even seeing so much as a picture of a real one?

At this instant, when things are ready to blow up with a single word, yes it is. Right now any "concerned" post would be replied to by a flurry of "annoyed" posters, Chip will have to close the thread, and nothing will be resolved.

Believe me, I sympathize with you. Part of me has been longing to make a long winded tirade post about everything that is wrong with this community, with the Pandora project, and to cancel my order. But that is the easy way out. That doesn't help the community. I want BOTH the awesome Pandora hardware and the awesome Pandora community (and accompanying software) to exist.

I'd like to make a plea for those in the "concerned" camp to give a short amount of time for emotions to cool, and have faith in Craig and ED to see your concerns and respond to them. I have some faith that Chip has actually heard our concerns and is working is best to get those requests for information upstream. If all he is doing is dealing with flame wars, he's going to have less time to help all of us.

 

[jdh2550]

Sarcasm and well placed criticism can be a good thing.

Yes, it can. It's a shame that complete assholes like you clearly don't know the right place and the right way to use it. You're obviously not a noob so I dare say you can see your way past my nastiness to see the good intent behind my post.

Trevor - I agree but alas, you're tilting at windmills...

 

[God Ginrai]

@ OP

This is the internet, haven't you got used to it yet?

If noobs ask stupid questions they deserve to be shot down. Sarcasm and well placed criticism can be a good thing.

This project is practically an amateur hardware project that got lots of buzz and attracted a bunch of whining losers.

Someone on this forum put it best (i forget who) when they used that old phrase; 'if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen'

People should just stop saying stupid things. This is a specialist forum, people who don't know anything should stop posting or do some research.

If noobs want to become part of something they should make an effort, spoon feeding them will do the community no good.

NO! NO NO NO.

Please please listen. I beg you all who want to scare away new users because they're "noobs" to listen to my words for a moment.

By being aggressive towards forum users:
You are causing harm the community.
You are reducing the amount of software you will eventually (or could potentially) see on the Pandora.
You are harming the Pandora's future success.

Some of those new users are potential future developers. Some people are highly skilled lurking in the forums to see if participating is worth their time. The next Ruckage. The next Senor Quack. The next Pickle.. You're treating them like shit and telling them to piss off. They're not going to come back.

Please please stop what you are doing. You are breaking this community apart. You are ruining the very thing you've been eagerly waiting for.


I understand your concern, but I also see Mech's point.

Why should we have to cater to the people who don't do the research, or at least READ the rules or use the Search function?

I'm all for not bashing a n00b who was ignorant of something. Unless they made a topic about it that was two topics above another topic about it that answered their damn question.

They need to learn to at least browse before we give them our respect.

-God Ginrai

 

[Bramrash]

I agree with everything except the sarcasm thing, i think sarcastic remarks towards each other is all part of the banter. As long as it's well timed that is, and not as a response to a perfectly justified question.

 

[Eniko]

I'd have to agree that there's a lot of animosity. Personally what bugs me more is all the speculation flying around from both ends, the concerned citizen speculates on all the things that seem "off" about this project, which harms reputation. The informed citizens speculate on why things are being delayed, which may also be harmful.

New people pick up on all of that, freak out, and then start making uninformed threads based on information that is sometimes purely speculative and sometimes just entirely false, and from there it kind of snowballs.

Personally though, I have to say I don't see what's useful about demanding more information from Craig. Either: A) He, the other developers, and their product are legit so when he says everything is moving along that's legit and you should be able to rest easy. OR: B) This is all one big scam and no matter what Craig tells you it's going to be a lie, so why would getting more information ease your mind?

Either he's telling the truth and everything will be fine and we all can relax, or he's lying and no matter what information he gives us he's gonna run off to the Bahamas with our money anyway.

NOT THAT I'M SUGGESTING THE PANDORA ISN'T LEGIT. I'm just saying if you think about it like this the choice is rather binary and clamoring for more information isn't going to help your situation either way around. *shrugs*

 

[God Ginrai]

I'd have to agree that there's a lot of animosity. Personally what bugs me more is all the speculation flying around from both ends, the concerned citizen speculates on all the things that seem "off" about this project, which harms reputation. The informed citizens speculate on why things are being delayed, which may also be harmful.

New people pick up on all of that, freak out, and then start making uninformed threads based on information that is sometimes purely speculative and sometimes just entirely false, and from there it kind of snowballs.

Personally though, I have to say I don't see what's useful about demanding more information from Craig. Either: A) He, the other developers, and their product are legit so when he says everything is moving along that's legit and you should be able to rest easy. OR: B) This is all one big scam and no matter what Craig tells you it's going to be a lie, so why would getting more information ease your mind?

Either he's telling the truth and everything will be fine and we all can relax, or he's lying and no matter what information he gives us he's gonna run off to the Bahamas with our money anyway.

NOT THAT I'M SUGGESTING THE PANDORA ISN'T LEGIT. I'm just saying if you think about it like this the choice is rather binary and clamoring for more information isn't going to help your situation either way around. *shrugs*



+1

I especially agree about the speculation.

-God Ginrai

 

[TrevorBradley]

I agree with everything except the sarcasm thing, i think sarcastic remarks towards each other is all part of the banter. As long as it's well timed that is, and not as a response to a perfectly justified question.

I agree in principle, sarcasm while occasionally awkward on the net is a good way to share gentle ribbing of one another, particularly in close knit communities where everyone knows each other well.

My concern is that the community is reaching a tipping point. Things are getting so nasty that every sarcastic post is going to get taken out of context by someone. Even little things like the "potential for meteor strike on the Pandora factory" which would have been hilarious a month ago for everyone are a grating today for some.

I'm not asking for a ban, just a temporary moratorium until tempers cool a bit.

 

[TrevorBradley]

I'd have to agree that there's a lot of animosity. Personally what bugs me more is all the speculation flying around from both ends, the concerned citizen speculates on all the things that seem "off" about this project, which harms reputation. The informed citizens speculate on why things are being delayed, which may also be harmful.

I think part of the problem here is that some of our brains work differently. We're all intelligent folk invested in a project in both a techie (hardware) and artistic (programming) venture. It's not unreasonable to see a good variety of personality types here.

I know I have difficultly coping in the absence of information. It's almost certainly from bad experiences in the dotcom era where lack of information implied something very bad was going to happen with 100% certainty. My coping strategy for lack of information is to plot out all the possibilities for what's actually going on, rank perceived probabilities, and take action on them, a very *unbinary* process. Some of us keep that internalized data to ourselves, others feel the need to share. Given the current environment, I've been pushing myself hard to keep my speculation, and my skepticism, to myself.

Along with a brief moratorium on harsh sarcasm (for reasons listed above) I'd love to call for a brief moratorium on rampant speculation. Not because speculation isn't legitimate, but rather that it's not helping or effective in this environment. Many of these speculations would have been valid, even welcomed by the community months ago while all of us were trying to work out what the heck this thing was and when we might get one.

Similarly to my post above, rampant speculation is also harming the project and scaring people away. We should feel free to ask legitimate questions without fear of sarcastic comebacks or having our queries shut down. If they're not answered in the sticky we should take a deep breath and give Chip a couple of weeks to attempt to gather the requested data. If we help Chip he can help us.

(edits to give proper replies to Eniko's points)

 

[emip]

... My concern is that the community is reaching a tipping point. ...

Isn't this a little bit self-fulfilling?
The discussion of a 'tipping point' and proposal of a moratorium seems nearly as alarmist as what the alleged 'n00bs' have been up to.

Need there be a tipping point? Everything will calm down in the future and I think that perhaps this is ironically a kind of meta-panic.

PS: The sooner Craig comes clean about the imminent meteor risk, the better

 

[VRAndy]

Is it really too much to ask for some information on the product you've just paid £200 for without even seeing so much as a picture of a real one?

Not at all. But on a public Internet forum, such as this one, it is considered common courtesy not to ask questions that have already been asked in the recent past.

This rule of polite Internet society applies, and this is important, even if the original question has not been answered.

There is no general consensus on how far back "the recent past" extends, but I think that most would agree that it is at least 24 hours.

You are all, of course, free individuals. If you don't want to act with common courtesy that is entirely your right, but must expect to be treated likewise.

 

[Klepto]

I trust the Pandora team. I don't think there's anyone who's been here more than a couple of months who doesn't trust the Pandora team. While I understand the concerns of the newcomers who have pre-ordered I firmly believe that those concerns are unjustified. It's not like we don't know who the people we have given our money to are, they have been prominent members of this community for much longer than I have been here. Keeping talking about this isn't going to do anyone any good, there are plenty of other things to post about. We knew that getting to a finished product may be a rocky road, but the end result has never been in doubt.

Oh, and I like everyone, even the trolls

 

[Sandman]

This is the internet, haven't you got used to it yet?

One can always hope it improves, but it won't improve with such attitude.

I for one am a bit hesitant to post on this part of the forum, much like someone said in a recently locked topic:
QUOTE

Most people are too scared to post their concerns on the board because the thought police pounce on them, accusing them of making unreasonable demands and generally twisting their words.

I agree with everything except the sarcasm thing, i think sarcastic remarks towards each other is all part of the banter. As long as it's well timed that is, and not as a response to a perfectly justified question.

But the opinion of what a justified question is, varies from person to person. Personally I think a question like "please supply proof that this project is not vaporware" is fairly justified, as - granted there are photos and videos - a person could argue that there is not enough evidence that this project is real to begin with. Mind that 250 euro is not a small sum of money.
Some people here have the luxury of knowing one or more developers personally, but most don't. There are numerous resources to study (zottd's videos, pandora's videos, photos, etc), but so far they have not shown a fully working Pandora doing everything, because it isn't here (yet?). But imagine when there's a video where the Pandora is fully working and doing everything it's supposed to be capable of doing: that will be truly magnificent. I hope very much such a video will be made. It will take away much doubt of many people, I think.

My coping strategy for lack of information is to plot out all the possibilities for what's actually going on, rank perceived probabilities, and take action on them, a very *unbinary* process.

Hear hear.

[EDIT]

I trust the Pandora team. I don't think there's anyone who's been here more than a couple of months who doesn't trust the Pandora team. While I understand the concerns of the newcomers who have pre-ordered I firmly believe that those concerns are unjustified. It's not like we don't know who the people we have given our money to are, they have been prominent members of this community for much longer than I have been here.

Hehe, I've been here for little over a year, following the Pandora's moves, but I'm still not 100% convinced this is not a scam.
I did pre-order by the way, haha.

 

[TrevorBradley]

Not at all. But on a public Internet forum, such as this one, it is considered common courtesy not to ask questions that have already been asked in the recent past.

This rule of polite Internet society applies, and this is important, even if the original question has not been answered.

Is this how open source communities actually work though? I spent some time in various linux IRC communities lately, ubuntu, mplayer.. They seemed quite eager to answer people's questions in a polite manner, and never griped once about it. Nowhere else have I seen a linux support forum where the response "A simple google search results in..." is ever followed by "Just do a search next time, you're being rude". It would seem to me that this applies moreso to our forums, as they're not particularly organized in an intuitive way or made easy to search (middling difficult is how I'd describe a search for information here).

This however, my just be my opinion or experience, so I'm not saying you're incorrect... but rather that this doesn't match my experience outside the Pandora community.