A Plea To Gp32x Posters...

[mali]

I dont want to sound like an old git, but... I remember when i was a noob, (and it was long before the term noob had even been coined). The internet was still in its infancy, and there was a great feeling of possitivity and exitement about the access to information. Forums were a wonderful way of putting a question to people who just might have the answers, and for the sharing of ideas.
Of course when i was new to using internet forums i didnt know to search for topics prior to posting or check any stickies (i didnt even know what a sticky was), so quite often would start a thread on a topc which would have already been discissed. Not once was i flamed. People understood that one did not automatically know the ins and outs of forum etiquet, and would politely point me to the right posting. Forum etiquet was quickly learnt "on the job", but without any negative feedback or childish insults.
Over the year i watched many forums degrade into playground name calling and mud slinging. I suppose much of this has to do with the age of the average user, but also with the lack of any real personal contact that is so often inherent in words on a screen. I would take a particularly sad or immature individual to actively insult a novice or begginer when they asked a question in the "real" world, however it has become all too common in the virtual world where one can hide behind an avatar.
Over the years this has lead to the point where i very rarely read forums, let alone post in them. I frankly cannot be arsed reading posts by over educated, over affluent, young men (usually) who cant quite get it together to grow up and learn some manners, shouting at each other about computer games! For gods sake, we're talking about games! Arent we supposed to be having fun?
When i heard about the pandora project, my hopes were raised. This is a project by the people, for the people. It has gained huge momentum through word of mouth alone. The community and the project are indivisable. It shos what these forums are capable of (even if we're only talking about a games machine!) The OP really is correct in what he says. If the forums descend in to a flaming war, people will be driven away, and new comers will at best, be disinterested in the forum, or at worst be made to feel unwelcome. In the seemingly trivial action of abandoning common manners in an internet forum, you really do jeopardise the future of this project. Our project!
To say that this is the internet, and that's just the way things are is a total cop-out. If we want to live in a world in which we respect each other, this must transfer to our shared virtual world as well.
Anyway, thats quite enough from the old git for one day...

Well spoken

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*grabs popcorn*

 

[scarath]

I dont want to sound like an old git, but. [...] If we want to live in a world in which we respect each other, this must transfer to our shared virtual world as well.

Well spoken



+1, a well made point

however i still find it difficult to respect people who do not make an effort to learn/find info for themselves and so fail in putting forward informed statements and questions.

 

[VRAndy]

I mean if you're going to spend half an hour obsessing about the Pandora and typing up a wall of text, you might as well make it a useful wall of text instead of a treatise about how you think people should behave on the internet.

Since Chip made this comment there have been not one, but two posts longer than four paragraphs about how people should behave on the internet.

The wiki has not been edited since November 1st when someone edited "128" to "256".

 

[lucidchaos]

QUOTE
however i still find it difficult to respect people who do not make an effort to learn/find info for themselves and so fail in putting forward informed statements and questions.


It is difficult in life as well.

One of my first jobs was as a computer salesman in a major retail electronics chain. Do you know how difficult it was when people pointed to a monitor and called it a computer, then pointed to the computer and called it the hard drive? I had to refrain from laughing.

And once, I did. A woman asked what the computer could do, and I told her a few things but said she'd have to buy software. "what's software?," she said. I couldn't suppress a chuckle. She stormed out of the store.

I am sure at this point in time she is happily using a computer, purchased at some other time from some other person. And I'll never forget how I was an asshole to her.

We all want to see this project be successful. The forums are, as of today, the best possible source of information that newcomers have. It may be true that they don't have the time or knowledge to search the forums. Should we, as a community, make the inadvertent decision to push them away, basically saying "The Pandora, and this community, are too good for you?"

That's the message some of us are sending.

Taking a snippet from my first ever post:

I would like to add right now that some of you forum members, you know who you are, can be very intimidating to people new to the scene like myself. I never asked a question and for the most part I was able to find most of the info I was looking for. But this info came at the cost of scrolling through countless pages of posts impolitely asking new members like myself to use the search function. As many mods and devs have stated, a simple link to another post will suffice.

+1 to the idea of a newbie Q&A forum. I personally like educating the masses on new, exciting technology, but before I ever have the opportunity there is usually 3 or 4 "Die Noob Use The Search Function" posts already.

In response to the last post, VRAndy and Chip are right. However, I will not throw this post away so make it 3 posts.

(edit) grammar

 

[plopperz]

+2 to the Newb board.
Maybe new members would be required to make 10-15 posts there before they got access to the full boards?

 

[dadioflex]

The other problem with EXPECTING people to use the search function is that often they have to know what they're looking for before they can search for it. That may seem obvious but it's not always the case.

I'm not sure about having a minimum post requirement though. I just checked and I've been READING these boards for almost three years and made 36 posts so far. What's the old saying? Better to say nothing and appear to be a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it.

 

[ashdjones]

You know a forum is getting bad when a poster is critisised for requesting people be nice to each other, or dare I say it... respectful?

Act like you want to be treated folks.

 

[joa]

I dont want to sound like an old git, but... I remember when i was a noob, (and it was long before the term noob had even been coined). The internet was still in its infancy, and there was a great feeling of possitivity and exitement about the access to information. Forums were a wonderful way of putting a question to people who just might have the answers, and for the sharing of ideas.
Of course when i was new to using internet forums i didnt know to search for topics prior to posting or check any stickies (i didnt even know what a sticky was), so quite often would start a thread on a topc which would have already been discissed. Not once was i flamed. People understood that one did not automatically know the ins and outs of forum etiquet, and would politely point me to the right posting. Forum etiquet was quickly learnt "on the job", but without any negative feedback or childish insults.
Over the year i watched many forums degrade into playground name calling and mud slinging. I suppose much of this has to do with the age of the average user, but also with the lack of any real personal contact that is so often inherent in words on a screen. I would take a particularly sad or immature individual to actively insult a novice or begginer when they asked a question in the "real" world, however it has become all too common in the virtual world where one can hide behind an avatar.
Over the years this has lead to the point where i very rarely read forums, let alone post in them. I frankly cannot be arsed reading posts by over educated, over affluent, young men (usually) who cant quite get it together to grow up and learn some manners, shouting at each other about computer games! For gods sake, we're talking about games! Arent we supposed to be having fun?
When i heard about the pandora project, my hopes were raised. This is a project by the people, for the people. It has gained huge momentum through word of mouth alone. The community and the project are indivisable. It shos what these forums are capable of (even if we're only talking about a games machine!) The OP really is correct in what he says. If the forums descend in to a flaming war, people will be driven away, and new comers will at best, be disinterested in the forum, or at worst be made to feel unwelcome. In the seemingly trivial action of abandoning common manners in an internet forum, you really do jeopardise the future of this project. Our project!
To say that this is the internet, and that's just the way things are is a total cop-out. If we want to live in a world in which we respect each other, this must transfer to our shared virtual world as well.
Anyway, thats quite enough from the old git for one day...

I remember that era too! The compuserve forum was the biggest laugh i'd ever had on the internet; full of cool people wanting decent, and often comical conversation.

we'll make it happen

 

[nubie]

The other problem with EXPECTING people to use the search function is that often they have to know what they're looking for before they can search for it. That may seem obvious but it's not always the case.

I'm not sure about having a minimum post requirement though. I just checked and I've been READING these boards for almost three years and made 36 posts so far. What's the old saying? Better to say nothing and appear to be a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it.

I fully agree, that is why the newbs are here. So make a Newb section of the forums and have moderators dump the newbs there (It seems like Hando isn't about to re-structure the forums, this is sad).

The only other option is to merge and delete, which Chip is being heavily criticized for. I think it is OK to merge the posters question into the proper existing topic and PM them about the change, but if we flame the newb then it makes merging the topics all the harder.

So the solution is simple:

1. Newb section (currently unavailable)
2. More Mods (selfless people willing to write their life away to herd lolcats)
3. Us to just calm down and stop flaming the newbs (this will make the first two much easier)

 

[azmodean]

PS: The sooner Craig comes clean about the imminent meteor risk, the better

Don't forget the dinosaur risk either...


That's a good point! Quick, we need a quick survey of the number of windows and doors in the Dev's houses and workplaces so we can do Velociraptor attack risk assessment!

 

[RetiredAccount]

I think we need everyone on this forum to meet somewhere, get in a giant circle, and sing Kum-Bye-Yah until everyone is cool-headed and happy.

 

[VRAndy]

I think we need everyone on this forum to meet somewhere, get in a giant circle, and sing Kum-Bye-Yah until everyone is cool-headed and happy.

When I read the beginning of this sentence I thought it was going to end with some sort of ritualized violence. What a disappointment.

 

[TrevorBradley]

So the solution is simple:

1. Newb section (currently unavailable)
2. More Mods (selfless people willing to write their life away to herd lolcats)
3. Us to just calm down and stop flaming the newbs (this will make the first two much easier)

I think that's a great idea. Separate the kiddie pool from the shark tank. As long as I get to take anyone who flames a newbie for posting newbie question in the newbie forums and hit them over the head with a trout.

What say the mods? A separate flame-free newbie forum, where the people who could care less could ignore the posts and those of us who want to help can? It doesn't even need to be console specific (as many newbies often post in the wrong forum anyways...)

 

[VRAndy]

What say the mods? A separate flame-free newbie forum, where the people who could care less could ignore the posts and those of us who want to help can? It doesn't even need to be console specific (as many newbies often post in the wrong forum anyways...)

If you have two forums, one called "Beginner" and one called "Expert" all questions will be posted to the expert forum. (After all, if 'I' don't know, I must need an expert.)

The expert forum needs to be labeled in such a way so as to actually scare away newcomers. "Standards and regulatory compliance" would be a good name for it.

 

[(naw)mcx]

What say the mods? A separate flame-free newbie forum, where the people who could care less could ignore the posts and those of us who want to help can? It doesn't even need to be console specific (as many newbies often post in the wrong forum anyways...)

If you have two forums, one called "Beginner" and one called "Expert" all questions will be posted to the expert forum. (After all, if 'I' don't know, I must need an expert.)

The expert forum needs to be labeled in such a way so as to actually scare away newcomers. "Standards and regulatory compliance" would be a good name for it.

I like that idea.

A filter that takes away replies and threads with bad spelling, txt speak and the like.

Some people would maybe go in to the Expert forum, if they feel the know what they are talking about, and mods can pick and choose who goes where.

Just my ideas.

 

[TrevorBradley]

Sounds like we're coming to some sort of consensus. Yay!

Here's a bit of humour to break up all this seriousness... MetaCafe: How to behave on a forum

 

[huufarted]

Why should we have to cater to the people who don't do the research, or at least READ the rules or use the Search function?

-God Ginrai

Because you want those noobs around at least until the Pandora makes its mark on the world. Scare them away now and you scare away potential developers. Perhaps someone that adds a mod to the pandora that nobody else would have thought of otherwise.

If you don't like people asking the same questions, skip to the next thread. Why should they have to cater to your desire to bash them? Sure, it makes you feel good to talk s**t to them for asking a question that's already been asked. It doesn't feel that way to them. They'll leave, they'll take their $340 or whatever and they'll instead spend it on a Wind or EEE or something instead.

From THEIR point of view, those products have a good community base, a solid architecture behind it, and a PROVEN name. What does the Pandora community have? Well, from what they saw a bunch of a**holes that just berate people that ask questions. If you train the incoming people on what the Pandora can/can't do, etc, then they'll be the ones to answer questions to the noobs that come in 2 months from now after everybody gets their 1st batches.

 

[Sandman]

OpenGL's forum does this as well and works too.

- OpenGL coding: beginners
....If you are just beginning to code with OpenGL, post your questions here
- OpenGL coding: advanced
....For experienced OpenGL programmers - advanced topics and discussions

The word 'advanced' is probably a good word to use.

 

[mali]

In my opinion it would be best to wait and see. Maybe self regulation is sufficient to have a decent way of interaction between members. Noobs come here and learn and the elder noobs educate the newer noobs. The experts intermediate if someone talks too much bullshit.
I think a noob section for the basics is a good idea.
I don't think that too much regulation is a good idea. People would break the rules and then others moan again.

Edit:
New members adapt to the behavior of others on a board, so it is always the best to set them an example of friendlyness.

 

[TrevorBradley]

In my opinion it would be best to wait and see. Maybe self regulation is sufficient to have a decent way of interaction between members. Noobs come here and learn and the elder noobs educate the newer noobs. The experts intermediate if someone talks too much bullshit.
I think a noob section for the basics is a good idea.
I don't think that too much regulation is a good idea. People would break the rules and then others moan again.

My fear is that one forum will be "the place where questions are welcomed", and another "the place where questions are discouraged". It treats the symptom, not the problem.

That being said it might be a good short term solution. Beginner / Advanced forums could actually evolve into something different once there are more complex questions to be asked.