6 buttons AB/CD/XY and 4 shoulder buttons?

[God Ginrai]

No. Half a button is a lot of height to add. It'll be the difference between pocketable and not pocketable, because the pandora's really on the edge there.

I'm looking at my Pandora right now and seeing room to add half a button w/o even increasing the height of the device, with some room to spare. So we likely wouldn't even have to increase it by half a button.

-God Ginrai

 

[levi]

If we end up with a keyboard that uses the idea of having a row of hardware switch keys between the d-pad and the buttons but no further, the extra half a button can move up into that area (and still be far enough from the hinge to avoid conflicts).

 

[bzar]

No. Half a button is a lot of height to add. It'll be the difference between pocketable and not pocketable, because the pandora's really on the edge there.

I'm looking at my Pandora right now and seeing room to add half a button w/o even increasing the height of the device, with some room to spare. So we likely wouldn't even have to increase it by half a button.

-God Ginrai

Did you take into account that the buttons need to be far enough from the hinge (at least a quarter of a thumb, half would be better) to be pressable comfortably and far enough from the keyboard that you don't accidentally press any of its keys?

EDIT: clarification: thumb's width, not length or thickness

 

[_wb_]

I agree that we may be able to find enough height for half an extra button by using the space that is now used for 0 and backspace on the Pandora.

I also agree that making the device a bit wider would in itself not be a huge problem for pocketability. We may have different ideas though about how much "a bit" can be.

Device width is not the only thing that would change. It may be an issue that the right nub would be quite a bit further away from the edge. And if we want to keep both nubs positioned symmetrically, it means the width would have to increase on the other side too, which would cause the device to become maybe 20mm wider, which is starting to get too much for me. Note that the action buttons like they are now already take up slightly more space than the dpad. And making it that wide means that again, the screen will take up only part of the lid, such that when playing 3:4 games at the right aspect ratio, less than half of the lid width can be used.

 

[_wb_]

Here's a 7 button version:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59ecd6027aacf85d8f3e58471483d984

This illustrates the problem with a more conventional 6-button layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a5b44b2af29d32e9ed7f0bfdde26874e

It can be solved by making the device wider, or by moving the start/select/pyra buttons to make room for the right nub, like this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4f83dd73daba13d958df88dcd813e74f

Either way, the nubs are going to end up too far away from the edge to be comfortable to me.

 

[bzar]

That seven button one doesn't look half bad. The enter key should IMO be just a rectangular key instead of having that awkward peninsula

If you made the caps lock normal width, you could raise the enter key to the same level as it is and add another key under enter

 

[_wb_]

Let's focus on the action buttons in this thread

 

[bzar]

Yes, let's. My post did contain thread-relevant content too, though

 

[KillRoXx]

Increase the size of the Pyra. Problem solved. now we can enjoy flawless emulation through any medium.

 

[Null]

^ What, even dance?

 

[KillRoXx]

^ What, even dance?

Yes you can dance. on Stepmania. if someone ports it over the the pyra. il be sold.

thats if it supports dancepad usb plugins..... and youll need a hdmi cord to play with such a thing. or just use the dpad and the first 4 action buttons.

 

[God Ginrai]

No. Half a button is a lot of height to add. It'll be the difference between pocketable and not pocketable, because the pandora's really on the edge there.

I'm looking at my Pandora right now and seeing room to add half a button w/o even increasing the height of the device, with some room to spare. So we likely wouldn't even have to increase it by half a button.

-God Ginrai

Did you take into account that the buttons need to be far enough from the hinge (at least a quarter of a thumb, half would be better) to be pressable comfortably and far enough from the keyboard that you don't accidentally press any of its keys?
EDIT: clarification: thumb's width, not length or thickness

 Yes, I did. There was actually room without even removing the number row at the top of the Pandora. If we can assume that row won't be there, then it's even roomier.

I agree that we may be able to find enough height for half an extra button by using the space that is now used for 0 and backspace on the Pandora.

I also agree that making the device a bit wider would in itself not be a huge problem for pocketability. We may have different ideas though about how much "a bit" can be.

Device width is not the only thing that would change. It may be an issue that the right nub would be quite a bit further away from the edge. And if we want to keep both nubs positioned symmetrically, it means the width would have to increase on the other side too, which would cause the device to become maybe 20mm wider, which is starting to get too much for me. Note that the action buttons like they are now already take up slightly more space than the dpad. And making it that wide means that again, the screen will take up only part of the lid, such that when playing 3:4 games at the right aspect ratio, less than half of the lid width can be used.

 There's actually room on the current Pandora's layout to move the nubs a little closer to the center, where the start/select/Pandora buttons are. If we make use of this, we probably would only have to increase the width by the width of one button, even to create a symmetrical layout.

The button layout does not change the size of the screen. You are going to have to see it at that size and resolution whether we have a 6-button layout or not.

Here's a 7 button version:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59ecd6027aacf85d8f3e58471483d984

This illustrates the problem with a more conventional 6-button layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a5b44b2af29d32e9ed7f0bfdde26874e

It can be solved by making the device wider, or by moving the start/select/pyra buttons to make room for the right nub, like this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4f83dd73daba13d958df88dcd813e74f

Either way, the nubs are going to end up too far away from the edge to be comfortable to me.

That 6-button layout you posted doesn't even make sense. It's curved completely opposite of the natural path your thumb travels. And as I said before, the different sized buttons combined with the fact that the buttons arc in two different directions makes the 7-button layout you posted an absolute nightmare to use.

One thing that is interesting is the idea to move the start/select/Pyra buttons over next to the dpad. I do like that idea, because it makes it easier to quickly reach those buttons. (Plus, if they are still mapped to ctrl and alt, it puts them in an easier place to use as modifier keys)

As for the nubs, I honestly don't feel that increasing the distance of the nubs from the edge by one button-width is really shifting them far enough to be uncomfortable.

-God Ginrai

 

[KillRoXx]

Quoted God Ginrai:

Spoiler

 

No. Half a button is a lot of height to add. It'll be the difference between pocketable and not pocketable, because the pandora's really on the edge there.

I'm looking at my Pandora right now and seeing room to add half a button w/o even increasing the height of the device, with some room to spare. So we likely wouldn't even have to increase it by half a button.

-God Ginrai

Did you take into account that the buttons need to be far enough from the hinge (at least a quarter of a thumb, half would be better) to be pressable comfortably and far enough from the keyboard that you don't accidentally press any of its keys?
 
EDIT: clarification: thumb's width, not length or thickness

 
Yes, I did. There was actually room without even removing the number row at the top of the Pandora. If we can assume that row won't be there, then it's even roomier.
 

I agree that we may be able to find enough height for half an extra button by using the space that is now used for 0 and backspace on the Pandora.
I also agree that making the device a bit wider would in itself not be a huge problem for pocketability. We may have different ideas though about how much "a bit" can be.
 
Device width is not the only thing that would change. It may be an issue that the right nub would be quite a bit further away from the edge. And if we want to keep both nubs positioned symmetrically, it means the width would have to increase on the other side too, which would cause the device to become maybe 20mm wider, which is starting to get too much for me. Note that the action buttons like they are now already take up slightly more space than the dpad. And making it that wide means that again, the screen will take up only part of the lid, such that when playing 3:4 games at the right aspect ratio, less than half of the lid width can be used.

 
There's actually room on the current Pandora's layout to move the nubs a little closer to the center, where the start/select/Pandora buttons are. If we make use of this, we probably would only have to increase the width by the width of one button, even to create a symmetrical layout.

The button layout does not change the size of the screen. You are going to have to see it at that size and resolution whether we have a 6-button layout or not.
 

Here's a 7 button version:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59ecd6027aacf85d8f3e58471483d984
 
This illustrates the problem with a more conventional 6-button layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a5b44b2af29d32e9ed7f0bfdde26874e
It can be solved by making the device wider, or by moving the start/select/pyra buttons to make room for the right nub, like this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4f83dd73daba13d958df88dcd813e74f
Either way, the nubs are going to end up too far away from the edge to be comfortable to me.

That 6-button layout you posted doesn't even make sense. It's curved completely opposite of the natural path your thumb travels. And as I said before, the different sized buttons combined with the fact that the buttons arc in two different directions makes the 7-button layout you posted an absolute nightmare to use.

One thing that is interesting is the idea to move the start/select/Pyra buttons over next to the dpad. I do like that idea, because it makes it easier to quickly reach those buttons. (Plus, if they are still mapped to ctrl and alt, it puts them in an easier place to use as modifier keys)

As for the nubs, I honestly don't feel that increasing the distance of the nubs from the edge by one button-width is really shifting them far enough to be uncomfortable.

-God Ginrai

Well as i said. increase the size of the Pyra.

 

[TrashyMG]

Well as i said. increase the size of the Pyra.

No

Edit: more elaborately I don't necessarily see the benefit.. so several Genesis games supported 6 button controller, but also played just fine with 3 buttons, also the other buttons could be used with the shoulder buttons.

 

[God Ginrai]

Well as i said. increase the size of the Pyra.

No

Edit: more elaborately I don't necessarily see the benefit.. so several Genesis games supported 6 button controller, but also played just fine with 3 buttons, also the other buttons could be used with the shoulder buttons.

Actually, games like Lost Vikings used all 7 buttons. Most 6-button games are designed based on the 6-button layout, placing certain functions near each other so they can be quickly activated. Trying to do this with shoulder buttons (even if we have 4 shoulders) would be much more difficult.

-God Ginrai

 

[TrashyMG]

I know there are several rare cases, I just don't think it's worth a size increase.

 

[God Ginrai]

I know there are several rare cases, I just don't think it's worth a size increase.

I hardly think N64 games and Sega Saturn games are "rare cases". Not to mention all of the fighters on the Sega Genesis, Saturn, N64, and arcade systems.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

Trying to do this with shoulder buttons (even if we have 4 shoulders) would be much more difficult.

Can you back that up? Seems to me that having two distinct inputs, a shoulder trigger on the finger and a button under the thumb, with the ability to press either individually, would be easier than two inputs for a single digit: clicking either your finger or thumb should be easier than moving your thumb to press one of two buttons.

 

[WizardStan]

I hardly think N64 games

The N64 layout most certainly wasn't anything like what you're advocating. If we were to use the N64 as a template then the cross pattern becomes very important and is used for the C buttons while the other two are shuffled to the side somewhere.

 

[God Ginrai]

I hardly think N64 games

The N64 layout most certainly wasn't anything like what you're advocating. If we were to use the N64 as a template then the cross pattern becomes very important and is used for the C buttons while the other two are shuffled to the side somewhere.

You're right, it's not the same as what I'm advocating. Which is why I pointed out earlier that it is the exception:

Maybe we should just stick to 4 buttons, because whatever way we add extra buttons, someone is going to say that it is a horrible and unnatural design.

I don't see how the 6-button layout in the picture ShleeDragon posted is not acceptable. It is a natural design, the design that most every 6-button layout follows. (with the exception of N64 which follows closely but not exactly) And it seems to have plenty of support. We've already determined that increasing the width of the device does not effect pocketability, and increasing the height by half a button is an amount that would be negligible.

-God Ginrai

I play N64 games on my computer all the time w/ the Xbox Duke, which has a 6-button layout similar to what I am advocating, (although the black and white buttons are smaller than the normal buttons) and the N64 controls adapt just fine to this layout:

-God Ginrai