6 face buttons necessary?

[WizardStan]

respectfully disagreeing with someone means engaging with them, and not simply declaring that they don't have an argument

Neither one of us was being respectful: you were making statements of opinion with no supporting evidence and calling it an argument, and I was calling you out on your poor tactics. You obviously have no respect for proper debate and I have no respect for you.

 

[thatgui]

For those who want a dose of wisdom from a world class designer -

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jonathan_ive.html

Where is the wisdom in reducing functionality and glossing a simple design over it ?  

I'm not offering an alternative with this thread - I'm simply suggesting that the solution should either be excellent, or, failing that, not be attempted in the first place.

I believe I've demonstrated more than a few valid reasons to keep this aspect of Pyra's design up for discussion. This is about priorities, and accomplishing a goal in a less than optimal manner is a bigger sin than not attempting it at all.

What do you want here ? The Pyra will continue the conceptual idea of the Pandora: Beware: Compromises everywhere ! You won't find any super polished, market and dummy user optimised hardware and software here. If you want functionality removed for the sake of some dumb design concept, just go where you seem to be more at home.

Don't get me wrong this is no "buuhh apple fanboy go home" rant, I just don't understand how you roll in this particular aspect.

The two additonal buttons are smaller than the original four, this provides targets of varying size to your thumb, leading to potential difficulty.

Any prove, or at least something anecdotical to present?

Six button pads arrange their buttons in an arc, which follows the track of the thumb across the surface of the device. Different sized buttons which are not in this arc arrangement and on the complete other side of the four main buttons, not to mention incredibly close to an analog pad, represents too much of a potential for input error.

That heavily depends on the usecase. While this maybe true for games that were designed for such a layout, there are a lot more where they can

If adding additional buttons is truly a valuable design goal, there are other areas on the face of the device available that don't confuse the main button area.

Please give us examples of places where to put them that are easily reachable with the right tumb and still allow natural thumb movement. All we get is "I think its bad, therefore it has to be bad, no question about it"

In any case, there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for this, and I won't be a lone crusader for an argument that people seemingly are so allergic to.

You could try to encourage/support God Ginrai in his attempt to prove that a six button layout in a style you would want it is still possible > see here

 

[vcoleiro1]

Does anyone have a picture of the latest 6 button layout on the Pyra. Haven't been looking at these boards much lately and have missed what the current 6 button plan is.   

 

[thatgui]

Does anyone have a picture of the latest 6 button layout on the Pyra. Haven't been looking at these boards much lately and have missed what the current 6 button plan is.

Don't know if that is his latest take on things, but you can see it here

 

[vcoleiro1]

Does anyone have a picture of the latest 6 button layout on the Pyra. Haven't been looking at these boards much lately and have missed what the current 6 button plan is.

Don't know if that is his latest take on things, but you can see it here

I take it ED is still planning to use the 6 button layout that is on the first page of the thread you linked .


I must admit , when I first saw that layout (way back when), my first thought was that I would hit the bottom small button everytime I tried to press the standard left button. I have large hands - well I am large generally, I'm 6' 6" in the old money. My thumb hits the edges of the other buttons on a standard 4 button layout ,but not enough to press them down. I can see just by noting the planned bottom additional button location, that when I press the Left standard button , there's going to be a fair chance I also depress that additional bottom button. The top additional button is ok, it's the bottom one that's a real concern.


Hopefully ED can get some people with larger hands to test the layout.

 

[Saber]

Does anyone have a picture of the latest 6 button layout on the Pyra. Haven't been looking at these boards much lately and have missed what the current 6 button plan is.

Don't know if that is his latest take on things, but you can see it here

I take it ED is still planning to use the 6 button layout that is on the first page of the thread you linked .


I must admit , when I first saw that layout (way back when), my first thought was that I would hit the bottom small button everytime I tried to press the standard left button. I have large hands - well I am large generally, I'm 6' 6" in the old money. My thumb hits the edges of the other buttons on a standard 4 button layout ,but not enough to press them down. I can see just by noting the planned bottom additional button location, that when I press the Left standard button , there's going to be a fair chance I also depress that additional bottom button. The top additional button is ok, it's the bottom one that's a real concern.


Hopefully ED can get some people with larger hands to test the layout.

Maybe ED could play somewhat with the vertical travel of the smaller buttons. Make them infinitesimally more shallow so you won't feel them as much at least.

 

[TrashyMG]

Maybe ED could play somewhat with the vertical travel of the smaller buttons. Make them infinitesimally more shallow so you won't feel them as much at least.

I can't find it right now, maybe it was a comment on IRC.. But I swore ED mentioned that these buttons will not be a high as the regular buttons so they don't interfere..

 

[Saber]

Maybe ED could play somewhat with the vertical travel of the smaller buttons. Make them infinitesimally more shallow so you won't feel them as much at least.

I can't find it right now, maybe it was a comment on IRC.. But I swore ED mentioned that these buttons will not be a high as the regular buttons so they don't interfere..

You know I think your right. I also thought ED said something along those lines eons ago about the two smaller ones having a little less depth to them.

 

[Askarus]

Maybe ED could play somewhat with the vertical travel of the smaller buttons. Make them infinitesimally more shallow so you won't feel them as much at least.

I can't find it right now, maybe it was a comment on IRC.. But I swore ED mentioned that these buttons will not be a high as the regular buttons so they don't interfere..

You know I think your right. I also thought ED said something along those lines eons ago about the two smaller ones having a little less depth to them.

It's certain.

The buttons will get less depth than regular buttons.

 

[Saber]

Maybe ED could play somewhat with the vertical travel of the smaller buttons. Make them infinitesimally more shallow so you won't feel them as much at least.

I can't find it right now, maybe it was a comment on IRC.. But I swore ED mentioned that these buttons will not be a high as the regular buttons so they don't interfere..

You know I think your right. I also thought ED said something along those lines eons ago about the two smaller ones having a little less depth to them.

It's certain.

The buttons will get less depth than regular buttons.

That sounds good.

Furthermore, I wonder if the surfaces of the smaller buttons could be made glossy, like the black and white ones on the Xbox Controller, to reduce any peripheral texture gripping by the right thumb while pressing the (A) or (X)?

 

[rudepeople]

I'm not sure how relevant this post will be, or even if it will be seen... but... I like the idea of having 6 face buttons (sega emulation and such) but I also am not fond of WHERE the placement seems to be gravatating toward...

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to relocate any of the primary buttons, just one of the additional two...

I was thinking, why can't one of the new buttons be on the opposing side to the quad buttons... I am no artist so I'm not sure if my meaning is coming across...

I guess what I mean is locate the two additional buttons on opposing corners of the quad instead of directly above each other. virticle symmetry can LOOK nice but be uncomfortable when playing, whereas if you instead use rotational symetry, it looks fine, and FEELS better when playing.

 

[WizardStan]

I guess what I mean is locate the two additional buttons on opposing corners of the quad instead of directly above each other.

This was suggested... somewhere. I think EvilDragon's response was that there's a necessary support screw there, or near enough as to cause problems.

 

[Xaeo]

I remember reading the thread by God Ginrai (GG) who proposed optional layouts for the 6 buttons. I remember him laying them out similar to the sega controller, and he had plenty of different layouts which he tested using stickers or something similar.

He came up with some really neat ways to have them positioned for better ergonomics and use, but in the end with all of the redesigns of the button layout on the case they were unable to be manufactured that way due to the tolerances between the buttons (and more importantly the connection on the board for said buttons) being too tight for them to fit. I haven't read that particular thread in awhile, but I'd assume that GG has proposed some different designs by now.

I really can't understand the argument for not including these extra buttons, as this is an open device it isn't too hard to disable or assign a button to not do a task... I'd assume.

As for vintage gaming and having the controller mimic a sega controller is asinine to me. I grew up playing sega and the games were few and far between where the each of the three buttons had a different task. Typically all three buttons performed the same task (Sonic) or A & C would perform the same task. It was even weirder with the six button controllers where the top three would mimic the bottom three... which would mimic each other...

So, I'm more than happy with the current setup, especially considering N64 emulation is so darn annoying on any device. Trying to map the c-buttons in addition to the A & B is always an annoyance. With the current design you have all of the c-buttons as well as the A & B buttons close by and easy to use with you right hand, while your left hand is able to use the nub/d-pad as well as leaving all of the shoulder buttons operational as well. I could not see how moving the buttons away from the other 4 buttons would be helpful at all, as you would then need to move your left hand (which typically controls movement) to hit one of your main action buttons (A or B ). As far as I can recall GG has been experimenting with layouts of the 6 buttons all on the same side for this exact reason; ease of use.

I can understand that some people here do have large hands and may have issues with this six button design. If that is so I would highly recommend you putting your input into the GG thread about alternative designs for the layout as that seems to be the most constructive thread where members actually try the proposed layouts. I would recommend using stickers on your Pandora to test out the six button design too as that will give you the best feeling for how it will work.

-Xaeo