6 buttons AB/CD/XY and 4 shoulder buttons?

[Klumpen]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9M8AC-ez1j8?feature=oembed

+ proper N64 C-Button layout.

 

[EvilDragon]

Any non-fighting games? I don't play them

 

[TrashyMG]

4 game buttons and two shoulder buttons is all you need for Soul Calibur so there is that.. why would I need any other fighting game.

 

[God Ginrai]

It means just as little as your suggestion that we keep a cross at the expense of all 6-button emulation and gaming being completely gimped.

1) Not it doesn't. The quote I responded to was you making arguments as to why 6 buttons is important. Nowhere in the reasoning you gave in that block of text did you touch on why a straight line 2x3 pattern specifically was strictly superior to anything else. We're in agreement, 6 buttons is better than 4, the extra 2 buttons is useful for a lot of things, you don't need to make the argument for that case anymore at all. The problem at hand is where to put them.2) Having a cross and two others not in a straight line hardly seems like gimped gaming and emulation. Hyperbole generally makes for poor arguments, you won't convince anyone that you're right that way, not while I'm around. I've tried to give reasons why I believe maintaining a cross pattern is important, with two additional buttons added around them somewhere; Your arguments basically amount to "6 buttons is important" and "I want it like this".

I do seem to have left something out of my posts that I mentioned in IRC, so I will state it here so you know a reason why the 2x3 pattern is useful. Most 6-button games were designed with a 2x3 pattern in mind, expecting the buttons to be near each other so that they can be switched between extremely fast. Due to the way the thumb moves on a diagonal, it is best to have this layout as parallel lines of buttons to facilitate fast switching between the buttons. (2x3 instead of 3x2 because it is easier to move the thumb side to side along the diagonal rather than up or down)

However, in my "block of text" as you call it, I explained why a Diamond Pattern is used for buttons, and why a diagonal 6-button configuration also satisfies the same ergonomic concerns, which I hardly think can be boiled down to "I want it like this".

-God Ginrai

 

[ThinkPad]

All SEGA kids (Me included) will prefer the 6 button layout (2x3)

This layout will be perfect for N64, Saturn and Arcade Emulation. + All Genesis fans will breathe fresh air again 

By the way I have the same Saitek Controller (both wired and wireless versions) mainly because I am a SEGA kid.  

 

[Klumpen]

Any non-fighting games? I don't play them

+ proper N64 C-Button layout.

This layout will be perfect for N64, Saturn and Arcade Emulation. + All Genesis fans will breathe fresh air again 

PS:

By the way I have the same Saitek Controller (both wired and wireless versions) mainly because I am a SEGA kid.  

I was a Nintendo-kid but got used to this layout with my first pad from Saitek very fast and always thought, that the button layout for Street Fighter on SNES does not feel right although I have never seen an arcade cabinet back then, because they never were that popular here. Later on I appreciated the additional buttons for emulator stuff like fast forward or savestates and was really glad to have them for action RPGs like Soul Reaver 2 (PC version). Stuff like Jedi Knight 2+3 is easier to control that way too if you are not so dependent on mouse+keyboard like I am in those games.

 

[WizardStan]

Most 6-button games were designed with a 2x3 pattern in mind,

Most 6-button games were also designed with an arcade cabinet in mind.And no one is necessarily opposing a 2x3 pattern, just the need for that 2x3 pattern to be in a straight line at the sacrifice of the existing buttons. Why do they have to be in that steep line you want? Can they not be arched in any way? Even the Saturn buttons weren't linear either, they followed an arch; I'm just proposing slightly more of an arch so that the 4 button cross isn't lost.

The only system that I can find that had a perfectly straight 3 button configuration was the Genesis. Why is this so important to you?

However, in my "block of text" as you call it, I explained why a Diamond Pattern is used for buttons, and why a diagonal 6-button configuration also satisfies the same ergonomic concerns, which I hardly think can be boiled down to "I want it like this".

Ok, then I'm clearly not seeing it. You said:

Also, you suggest that 4-button gaming will still be most prevalent on the Pyra, however, I believe that many homebrew or ported games would welcome two extra buttons to assign actions to. As for emulation, any 4-button system emulator could use them for actions like quick-save and fast forward.

To me this is just an argument in favour of 6 buttons over four. You suggest that with two extra buttons homebrewers will welcome it, and the extra two buttons can even be used by 4 button emulators, but neither of these things explain why keeping all 6 buttons in a steep line is so important. What part did I misread?

 

[God Ginrai]

Most 6-button games were designed with a 2x3 pattern in mind,

Most 6-button games were also designed with an arcade cabinet in mind.And no one is necessarily opposing a 2x3 pattern, just the need for that 2x3 pattern to be in a straight line at the sacrifice of the existing buttons. Why do they have to be in that steep line you want? Can they not be arched in any way? Even the Saturn buttons weren't linear either, they followed an arch; I'm just proposing slightly more of an arch so that the 4 button cross isn't lost.

The only system that I can find that had a perfectly straight 3 button configuration was the Genesis. Why is this so important to you?

The line I suggested wasn't steep. In fact, I intentionally suggested one that only slightly curved down so that it didn't take up more height than the diamond layout.

However, in my "block of text" as you call it, I explained why a Diamond Pattern is used for buttons, and why a diagonal 6-button configuration also satisfies the same ergonomic concerns, which I hardly think can be boiled down to "I want it like this".

Ok, then I'm clearly not seeing it. You said:

Also, you suggest that 4-button gaming will still be most prevalent on the Pyra, however, I believe that many homebrew or ported games would welcome two extra buttons to assign actions to. As for emulation, any 4-button system emulator could use them for actions like quick-save and fast forward.

To me this is just an argument in favour of 6 buttons over four. You suggest that with two extra buttons homebrewers will welcome it, and the extra two buttons can even be used by 4 button emulators, but neither of these things explain why keeping all 6 buttons in a steep line is so important. What part did I misread?

 That was not an argument for 6 over 4, although I guess I can see how you saw it that way. That was part of my argument there was to point out that 6-button gaming would be prevalent enough to warrant considering a 2x3 layout as a stronger benefit than keeping a diamond, seeing as how 4-button gaming is still wholely possible w/ a 2x3 layout. (A 2x3 layout contains the 2x2 layout, after all)

Any non-fighting games? I don't play them

Found a list of Sega Genesis games that used 6 buttons online, and added some Saturn and N64 games that came to mind:

N64

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2

Vigilante 8

Vigilante 8: 2nd Offense

Quest 64

Paper Mario

Ocarina of Time

Majora's Mask

Bomberman 64: The Second Attack

Saturn

Burning Rangers

Radiant Silvergun

Astal

Shining the Holy Ark

Genesis

Art of Fighting

Batman Forever

Beyond Oasis (uses Mode button for weapon switching as MODE+ B)

Boogerman: A Pick and Flick Adventure

Brutal: Paws of Fury

Clay Fighter

Coach K College Basketball

College Football's National Championship

Comix Zone

Contra Hard Corps

Cutthroat Island

Davis Cup Tennis

Dragon Ball Z: Buyuu Retsuden

Duke Nukem 3D

Dyna Brothers 2

Eternal Champions

F1 World Championship Edition

Fatal Fury 2

FIFA 98: Road to World Cup

FIFA Soccer 96

FIFA Soccer 97

Garfield: Caught in the Act

Greatest Heavyweights

Head-On Soccer

International Superstar Soccer Deluxe (uses Mode button to select strategy)

Jammit

Judge Dredd

Justice League Task Force

LHX: Attack Chopper

The Lost Vikings

Marsupilami

Mortal Kombat

Mortal Kombat 3

Mortal Kombat II

NBA Action '94

NBA Action '95 starring David Robinson

NCAA Final Four Basketball

NHL 11 (http://www.blog.nhl91.com/#11gc)

NFL '95

Phantom 2040 (uses Mode button to stand in place )

Pier Solar and the Great Architects

Power Instinct

Primal Rage

Ranger X

Rise of the Robots

Samurai Shodown

Shaq Fu

Skeleton Krew

Spider-Man & Venom: Maximum Carnage

Spider-Man & Venom: Separation Anxiety

Street Fighter II': Special Champion Edition

Street Racer

Streets of Rage 3

Sub-terrania

Super Street Fighter II

TechnoClash

The Great Circus Mystery starring Mickey & Minnie

Turrican 3

Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3

Urban Strike

Virtua Fighter 2

Virtua Racing

WeaponLord

World Series Baseball '95

WWF WrestleMania: The Arcade Game

Yu Yu Hakusho: Makyo Toitsusen

Zombies Ate My Neighbors

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

The line I suggested wasn't steep

Sorry. I meant steep simply as greater than 45 degrees.

(A 2x3 layout contains the 2x2 layout, after all)

It contains the 2x2 layout in the same way that an arched layout still contains the 2x3 layout. It's still just an argument as to the value of 6 buttons over 4, nothing that says why a straight line is strictly better than an arched pattern.

 

[God Ginrai]

The line I suggested wasn't steep

Sorry. I meant steep simply as greater than 45 degrees.

The Diamond Layout is 45 degrees. What I suggested is closer to 30 degrees. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

(A 2x3 layout contains the 2x2 layout, after all)

It contains the 2x2 layout in the same way that an arched layout still contains the 2x3 layout. It's still just an argument as to the value of 6 buttons over 4, nothing that says why a straight line is strictly better than an arched pattern.

Not really, the Diamond (or SNES-style layout) is 2 lines of 2 buttons. They are placed along a diagonal and you move your thumb left and right along the diagonal to hit the top row (1 dimensional movement), and then move it down and move it left and right along the new diagonal to hit the bottom row (1 dimensional movement). With the 2x3 I suggested, you do the same thing, except there are now 3 buttons on each of those diagonal rows.

With an arched layout, you have now pushed each "row" to extend in two dimensions, meaning you can't just move your thumb left or right to hit all the buttons in a row. You now have to move your thumb in two dimensions to reach all the buttons in a row. Because the left-right movement of the thumb is easy but the up-down movement is slower, this creates delayed action when trying to play 6-button games.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

The Diamond Layout is 45 degrees. What I suggested is closer to 30 degrees. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Sorry, so confused with all these layouts flying around. I thought you proposed the one that angled everything upwards, but I went back and saw you had the more horizontal suggestion. No matter, it's the fact that it's a straight line that I'm specifically complaining against in this case.

With an arched layout, you have now pushed each "row" to extend in two dimensions, meaning you can't just move your thumb left or right to hit all the buttons in a row. You now have to move your thumb in two dimensions to reach all the buttons in a row. Because the left-right movement of the thumb is easy but the up-down movement is slower, this creates delayed action when trying to play 6-button games.

Except that you don't (for the global "you", maybe you specifically do) press buttons by shifting your thumb, you push them by pivoting. I just tried it on my Pandora, put my thumb in a comfortable spot on the existing 4 buttons, A and Y accessible in simple rocking motion and then pivoted it until there was a spot to put another button. It landed here:

---+---+--(C)
| Y |
---+---+---+(Z)
A | | B |
---+---+---
| X |
---+---+--If it were anywhere else, further away to be in a straight line with the A and Y, then I'd have to "lean" into it to reach. If the Y were brought down to be inline with the A and the © then I'd have to pull slightly away to press it comfortably.And I'm left wondering, if I'm wrong, if a straight line is really superior to an arch, then why have all 3 and 6 button controllers since the Genesis been arched? You would think one of them would have figured it out by now. Unless they did figure it out and the answer is that arched really is better?

 

[God Ginrai]

The Diamond Layout is 45 degrees. What I suggested is closer to 30 degrees. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Sorry, so confused with all these layouts flying around. I thought you proposed the one that angled everything upwards, but I went back and saw you had the more horizontal suggestion. No matter, it's the fact that it's a straight line that I'm specifically complaining against in this case.

With an arched layout, you have now pushed each "row" to extend in two dimensions, meaning you can't just move your thumb left or right to hit all the buttons in a row. You now have to move your thumb in two dimensions to reach all the buttons in a row. Because the left-right movement of the thumb is easy but the up-down movement is slower, this creates delayed action when trying to play 6-button games.

Except that you don't (for the global "you", maybe you specifically do) press buttons by shifting your thumb, you push them by pivoting. I just tried it on my Pandora, put my thumb in a comfortable spot on the existing 4 buttons, A and Y accessible in simple rocking motion and then pivoted it until there was a spot to put another button. It landed here:

---+---+--(C)
| Y |
---+---+---+(Z)
A | | B |
---+---+---
| X |
---+---+--If it were anywhere else, further away to be in a straight line with the A and Y, then I'd have to "lean" into it to reach. If the Y were brought down to be inline with the A and the © then I'd have to pull slightly away to press it comfortably.And I'm left wondering, if I'm wrong, if a straight line is really superior to an arch, then why have all 3 and 6 button controllers since the Genesis been arched? You would think one of them would have figured it out by now. Unless they did figure it out and the answer is that arched really is better?

It seems when I'm bad at explaining things. When I made that diagram in my earlier post and listed the "Point of Leverage", it was to explain that you were moving left and right around that point. I just went back and looked at the post and saw that somehow I had not expressed that thought. -_-

Yes, a slight curve to the line of buttons is beneficial as is seen in the Genesis or Saturn. An "arch" has much more exaggerated edges than those curves, so all I could think of when you were talking about an "arch" were large curves. I agree with you that a slight curve is better than a completely rigid straight line. In fact, I couldn't be happier if we were able to include a similar layout to that that is on the Sega Saturn Model 2 pad. (Before I get misinterpreted as wanting the buttons to be different sizes, I don't care about the button sizes as long as all the buttons in the same row are the same size)

-God Ginrai

 

[Natsu]

Can the extra two buttons be blank? It irk me for some reason. The letters seem like they are all over the place.

That or switch X with A and C with Z.

 

[Klumpen]

Call them pi and tau.

 

[God Ginrai]

Can the extra two buttons be blank? It irk me for some reason. The letters seem like they are all over the place.

That or switch X with A and C with Z.

 

Names are purely academic, we can (and will) argue about them later

 

As WizardStan mentioned earlier, what each button should be called can, and will, be argued.

 -God Ginrai

 

[comradekingu]

AY | Y | YB
---+---+---+
A |       | B |
---+---+---

AX| X |  XB

This is what there is actually space for, with considerations also for screw placement made YB might have to go.

I envisioned AY YB AX and XB drawn outward more from the 90 degree angle they have above (to the surrounding buttons that make up their names) to a sharper one.

I think having the additional 2 buttons to a 6 button layout (given that ABXY follows this pattern anyhow) is that its essentially 2 free buttons, and it is in doing so, symmetric. Likewise, the same could be done at the d-pad side.

Using AX and XB for A and B on the N64 and ABXY for the yellow buttons works

Using A Y YB and AX X B for sega should work reasonably well.

Using AX and X for NES is perhaps better since those buttons were closer together on the original controller. Also AX is in  a more comfortable space for the thumb.

Arcade paddle is what is can essentially be "emulated" by a dual 3 or 4 straight button layout, but anyhow fighting games wont be the same-same unless index long ring and little finger are used, but at the very least minimum 6 in any configuration opens up for a lot of doors.

 

[God Ginrai]

Using A Y YB and AX X B for sega should work reasonably well

Not at all. That curve would be too sharp and exhibit exactly the problems I was trying to explain to WizardStan before I realized he meant an arc. Plus, they curve in opposite directions, which is completely unintuitive and will cause confusion when switching between the top row and bottom row.

-God Ginrai

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Any non-fighting games? I don't play them

I assume this is a joke because I love fighting games and 6 buttons is nice to have but not a must if it costs too much to add to the Pyra I guess

 

[God Ginrai]

Any non-fighting games? I don't play them

I assume this is a joke because I love fighting games and 6 buttons is nice to have but not a must if it costs too much to add to the Pyra I guess

Of all the extra things we have discussed adding to the Pyra, 2 extra buttons should not be even on the list of the costly additions.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

An "arch" has much more exaggerated edges than those curves, so all I could think of when you were talking about an "arch" were large curves

I used the wrong word. *commits seppuku*

*bleeds all over the forum*