6 face buttons necessary?

[_wb_]

His solution is to just have the same 4 button scheme as Pandora. I mean, if you can call that a solution.

And it will be a better device for it. It would be better a better use of energy designing the highest quality and best feeling buttons possible, not just tacking on more where they don't fit.

Quality, not quantity.

....and one mouse button should be enough too, right? I mean, who needs right click? Better have one very nice and sleek, high-quality button, than just tacking on more buttons where they don't fit.

Maybe we should get rid of the keyboard too, and replace it with this:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9BnLbv6QYcA?feature=oembed

 

[Exophase]

So you've said but you have yet to give even a single example of why that cannot be applied to anything else.

You say "quality over quantity" but by that definition we should reduce it to two buttons, or even one. Heck, get rid of the keyboard, it's just all excess quantity. Oh, but that's not what you meant, those buttons are ok, four buttons is the magic number, some arbitrary number that you've just decided but can't justify; and the keyboard adds something, some "quality" that you can't be measured.

But two extra buttons? Even when they have literally zero impact on how the rest of the system is used, those are obviously the thing that cross the line. No need to justify it, it is clearly a waste of energy because you said it is.

The real reason he doesn't want to say is it's bad because it doesn't look like something someone else already did.

 

[segaprophet]

Maybe we should get rid of the keyboard too, and replace it with this:

Artless attempts at Apple bashing won't get you anywhere.

 

[segaprophet]

The real reason he doesn't want to say is it's bad because it doesn't look like something someone else already did.

This hasn't been attempted yet either - there's obviously a chance to innovate here -

 

[WizardStan]

This hasn't been attempted yet either - there's obviously a chance to innovate here

Yeah, maybe. Can you justify it? Or are you just being ridiculous in the hopes that hyperbole will work?

 

[segaprophet]

Yeah, maybe. Can you justify it? Or are you just being ridiculous in the hopes that hyperbole will work?

Exactly, I don't believe that the layout we're discussing can be adequately justified.

The basis of every argument in favor of it seems to stem from the same "more is more" and "why not?" dunderheaded reasoning.

 

[segaprophet]

"True simplicity is, well, you just keep on going and going until you get to the point where you go, 'Yeah, well, of course.' Where there's no rational alternative." - Jonathan Ive

Of course I'm coming at this from an Apple angle, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I happen to love excellent industrial design.

For those who want a dose of wisdom from a world class designer -

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jonathan_ive.html

 

[segaprophet]

. . . Ok, you've been complaining so where is your solution that Ed can implement?

I'm not offering an alternative with this thread - I'm simply suggesting that the solution should either be excellent, or, failing that, not be attempted in the first place.

I'm hoping to encourage more assessment from the community over this. I would love to see more ideas from people.

So far, all I'm hearing is - "we can't do better, so let's just roll with this".

 

[Exophase]

This hasn't been attempted yet either - there's obviously a chance to innovate here -

But here I can easily do what you refuse to do, which is show obvious disadvantages with this design. In that it hurts ergonomics and it's pretty much impossible to not accidentally press buttons just by holding it, let alone when pressing other buttons. It's not hard to show why a button that you accidentally press is worse than nothing. If you were trying to make that argument here I'd at least take you seriously.

Lots of members of, for example, the Engadget crowd have made fun of Pandora for cramming so much stuff into it instead of doing something simple like an iPhone. But there are tons of people who bought it and like every bit of what it has to offer, and that's the crowd it was made for. The extra two buttons on Pyra are there because a lot of people requested it and they don't get in the way and they offer something to a tangible number of people. Once again, show the actual problem, instead of spouting about aesthetics and design platitudes.

The argument isn't "why not", I know that people want it and I haven't seen a credible argument against including it at all, least of all from you.

 

[segaprophet]

But here I can easily do what you refuse to do, which is show obvious disadvantages with this design. In that it hurts ergonomics and it's pretty much impossible to not accidentally press buttons just by holding it, let alone when pressing other buttons. It's not hard to show why a button that you accidentally press is worse than nothing. If you were trying to make that argument here I'd at least take you seriously.


Lots of members of, for example, the Engadget crowd have made fun of Pandora for cramming so much stuff into it instead of doing something simple like an iPhone. But there are tons of people who bought it and like every bit of what it has to offer, and that's the crowd it was made for. The extra two buttons on Pyra are there because a lot of people requested it and they don't get in the way and they offer something to a tangible number of people. Once again, show the actual problem, instead of spouting about aesthetics and design platitudes.


The argument isn't "why not", I know that people want it and I haven't seen a credible argument against including it at all, least of all from you.

I'm not suggesting that Pandora or Pyra should be like an iPhone. Part of why I'm attracted to EDs work is that these devices offer some really unique hardware that is really useful to certain users.

I believe I've demonstrated more than a few valid reasons to keep this aspect of Pyra's design up for discussion. This is about priorities, and accomplishing a goal in a less than optimal manner is a bigger sin than not attempting it at all.

 

[WizardStan]

Exactly, I don't believe that the layout we're discussing can be adequately justified.

Insert and Delete in a convenient location without impacting the existing 4 buttons at all.I have supplied one justification that isn't "more is more" for why two small buttons are a good thing. I could provide more, this topic has been discussed at length many times over, but I don't have to. This single argument is more than you've provided on why it shouldn't. So far your argument has been ""more is more" is not a good enough reason".

 

[segaprophet]

I believed I had been clear in my criticisms of the current design, apparently not. There are absolutely valid reasons why the current design doesn't cut the mustard -

The two additonal buttons are smaller than the original four, this provides targets of varying size to your thumb, leading to potential difficulty.

Six button pads arrange their buttons in an arc, which follows the track of the thumb across the surface of the device. Different sized buttons which are not in this arc arrangement and on the complete other side of the four main buttons, not to mention incredibly close to an analog pad, represents too much of a potential for input error.

If adding additional buttons is truly a valuable design goal, there are other areas on the face of the device available that don't confuse the main button area.

 

[PokeParadox]

Here is another specific reason why the current design doesn't cut the mustard -

The two additonal buttons are smaller than the original four, this provides targets of varying size to your thumb, leading to potential difficulty.

Six button pads arrange their buttons in an arc, which follows the track of the thumb across the surface of the device. Different sized buttons which are not in this arc arrangement and on the complete other side of the four main buttons, not to mention incredibly close to an analog pad, represents too much of a potential for input errors.

In short, not good enough.

Yes... which is why people rejoiced when Nintendo announced that they would release an official GameCube USB adaptor for Wii U! /sarcasm

EDIT: The GameCube controller uses different sized buttons and a "non-convential" layout but people love it is the point I'm making.

 

[_jr_]

There are absolutely valid reasons why the current design doesn't cut the mustard -


The two additonal buttons are smaller than the original four, this provides targets of varying size to your thumb, leading to potential difficulty.


Six button pads arrange their buttons in an arc, which follows the track of the thumb across the surface of the device. Different sized buttons which are not in this arc arrangement and on the complete other side of the four main buttons, not to mention incredibly close to an analog pad, represents too much of a potential for input errors.


If adding additional buttons is truly a valuable design goal, there are other areas on the face of the device available that don't confuse the main button area.

You are bent on viewing the two new buttons as the unloved step siblings of the existing action buttons and totally fail to see that they can and do stand on their own. Just like mice with buttons for the thumb are not neccessarily failing at imitating addittional mouse buttons but can provide a useful feature. The new buttons in ED's design will actually be much more useful and natural to my use (Pyra as micro laptop) than a 'thumb-arc of 6' could ever be. Yes, space is tight, but I can't think of a better place for new buttons and in my use case more buttons is better.

 

[Exophase]

How convenient, you bring up the potential for accidentally pressing buttons only after I say I'd take you more seriously if you did. But I call BS that anyone is going to accidentally press the nub while trying to press these buttons, or vice-versa.

All you've done is argue that they should be taken away because they're not ideal. I get that you have this design philosophy of do it perfect or don't do it at all, but I don't think that's the spirit of this device or the buyers. Nobody agrees with you that it's not good enough.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

6 buttons seems good to me.

The L2/R2 too.

 

[segaprophet]

How convenient, you bring up the potential for accidentally pressing buttons only after I say I'd take you more seriously if you did.

Wasn't this problem self evident?

But I call BS that anyone is going to accidentally press the nub while trying to press these buttons, or vice-versa.

I disagree.

 

[segaprophet]

In any case, there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for this, and I won't be a lone crusader for an argument that people seemingly are so allergic to.

But if those who respectfully disagree with me want to continue to tango, I have no choice but to dance with you. However, I'd rather move on if this is going to be such a one sided scenario, numbers wise.

In other words, while I still hold my concerns, those for the design as it stands clearly carry the popular sentiment.

 

[segaprophet]

So far your argument has been ""more is more" is not a good enough reason".

Mhmm. By the way, respectfully disagreeing with someone means engaging with them, and not simply declaring that they don't have an argument.

 

[Granitehead]

So far your argument has been ""more is more" is not a good enough reason".

 Mhmm. By the way, respectfully disagreeing with someone means engaging with them, and not simply declaring that they don't have an argument.

When there is something to say he tends to write more.
(BTW, still need to answer to that derailed thread where several people gave me long answers. But as soon as I want to write a longer post I tend to not do it anymore because that almost feels like work ... )