Your Holy gaming Grail for Pandora 2..?


ANDROID said:
Trying to convince you is a lost cause. No flipping is nessisary, I've heard and understand all the benifits of true linux. My arguements are already shot down before I state them. So... it's better to just leave it at difference of opinions, no use in trying to convince one another.
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But I don't understand your opinion on this. You want Android, that's great, I get it. What benefit do you see exclusivity or even singularly primary support adding?
 
I don't have any experience using or developing for Android devices- so I don't really know if I am missing anything. Does it take much effort to port Linux apps to Android? My concern is that if it requires a lot of extra work wrapping things or rewriting code, I guess I don't see the real benefit.


One of the most appealings things to me about the Pandora is the huge library of linux software that can simply be recompiled for the Pandora and it just works.
 
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Okay, sorry to nitpick at this, but this is legitimate concern..

Craigix said:
The Pandora2 will never be Android only. That will never happen.

However I am skeptical about weather an alternative OS will ever be anywhere near complete or even working properly. My fear is that the situation could be worse than the Pandora1.
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Your original response was "you're welcome to run whatever you want." In saying that the Pandora 2 will never be Android only are you only saying that it will never be locked down and that users will always be encouraged to run what they want on it? Or are you saying that it will ship, day one, with a Linux distro fully supported by OPT?


I don't think anyone's worried about you locking it down. When you refer to non-Android as an "alternative OS" my concerns are heightened.

Craigix said:
Android is all I know I can promise will work well and not give you major headaches.

This isn't just me being lazy, or making a strange decision, it's just realistic based on what I'm seeing happening right now with the latest Socs.
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Things don't seem that bad to me, maybe you have information on SoCs that are far from release or something. I don't suppose you can give any more details? You said before that compatibility w/Pandora apps is just not realistic and I'd like to know more of why you feel this way. This is with the underlying assumption that you CAN get Linux up and the core drivers as necessary. Everything is pretty cut and dry: notaz told me getting Pandora apps running on a Freescale i.MX53 platform with Ubuntu would be tractable (or at least he seemed way more optimistic than you do about running something on an actual Pandora 2). I'd like to know in particular why you thought NEON support would be problematic.


.. although I suppose it's possible you're looking to use something like Medfield instead (blegh)

Craigix said:
However, you do know that many of the apps and emulators you crave exist on Android right now, and if they don't the chances are they will soon.
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Yeah, but some whole classes of apps don't and probably won't...
 
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Exophase said:
Your original response was "you're welcome to run whatever you want." In saying that the Pandora 2 will never be Android only are you only saying that it will never be locked down and that users will always be encouraged to run what they want on it? Or are you saying that it will ship, day one, with a Linux distro fully supported by OPT?


I don't think anyone's worried about you locking it down. When you refer to non-Android as an "alternative OS" my concerns are heightened.
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I didn't notice that... I'd like to know, too, if that's ok.


If there's a lack of a fully-supported on-board Linux, I'd have to rescind my previous statement about calling off looking for alternatives. If a useful computer OS, rather than a PMP one, isn't an at-purchase choice (i.e., isn't on-board), that's not so appealing to me. :p (If I'm going to spend hundreds, I have to be able to use the device to create stuff as well as play stuff.)

Craigix said:
However, you do know that many of the apps and emulators you crave exist on Android right now, and if they don't the chances are they will soon.
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Yeah, but some whole classes of apps don't and probably won't...
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I know I keep mentioning this one (and I'm really sorry, guys, but it's a HUGE bugbear of mine :p ), but one example of this is a simple text-editor. For writing text. Android has all of two of these on the market, and both are limited to one million characters or a couple of megabytes - I write more than that in a day!


Am I really alone in expecting a computer with a keyboard to function as a writing tool? I mean, I know that the population is becoming increasingly illiterate, but is it really this bad already? :lol:
 
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That also brings up another point. Pandora(s) are, at least partially, aimed at nerds geeks. Android is really not geared towards development or OS poking. Standard Linux is. Geeks are. Therefore, to keep (much of) the current market, (standard) Linux must work happily on the Pandora.


As said before, making the P2 an Android anditsnotlockedifyoureallywanttogetlinuxworkingonit! device is itself commercial suicide, because it is a move into strongly occupied territory. Please say that won't happen!
 
Craigix said:
The Pandora2 will never be Android only. That will never happen.


reply from me: well, that's a relief..but.....


However I am skeptical about weather an alternative OS will ever be anywhere near complete or even working properly. My fear is that the situation could be worse than the Pandora1.


reply from me: then, by your own admission, wouldn't turning our Linux desktop(and things like its productivity software, etc.) into "the alternative OS" on the Pandora(2) have the same effect on that?(that would be a bad thing, by the way..)


Android is all I know I can promise will work well and not give you major headaches.


reply from me: Ok,.. while you can easily "promise" that, there's absolutely no way to guaranty it.. From Craig's posts on related subjects over time it seems he has adopted a sort-of unofficial mantra of "simplicity at any cost" it's this type of mindset I think, that has turned me off from Windows, OSX, iOS, & Android almost more than anything else..aside from their general oppressive nature that is.. I admit, I hardly know anything beyond navigating and using(fairly effectively) a desktop environment and many of its programs, and I only know a few basic command line functions & DOS prompts, but I would NEVER trade functionality away for ease of use.


This isn't just me being lazy, or making a strange decision, it's just realistic based on what I'm seeing happening right now with the latest Socs.


reply from me: How would different Socs negatively impact one's ability to continue developing on, and for, our Linux any more than on Android?(I'm asking because I honestly I don't know..)


However, you do know that many of the apps and emulators you crave exist on Android right now, and if they don't the chances are they will soon.


reply from me: I suppose, but the same could be said for Pandora. The software either already exists and just needs more time in development, and/or a bump in system power to make bringing them over practical, which would likely be taken care of when designing the Pandora 2 anyway...
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There's one reason a Panadora 2 would need to at least run Android, The future of emulation is on Android. Craig is 100% correct on this point, if you crave emulators for systems which currently are un-emulated, then you need to look towards Android. That's a game winner for me on just that point.


I struggle to see emulation development continuing for Linux, with other devices moving to Android (yes your Yinlips etc) and other linux devices dying off (Caanoo), the Pandora would stand alone if it were to just have Linux. Why would a developer develop a new emulator for it, they wouldn't, you would be waiting for New emulators developed for Android to be ported to Linux - not a great situation.
 
If were talking Android, why not throw Windows 8 ARM in the mix?


*ducks and runs* :p
 
vcoleiro said:
There's one reason a Panadora 2 would need to at least run Android, The future of emulation is on Android. Craig is 100% correct on this point, if you crave emulators for systems which currently are un-emulated, then you need to look towards Android. That's a game winner for me on just that point.


I struggle to see emulation development continuing for Linux, with other devices moving to Android (yes your Yinlips etc) and other linux devices dying off (Caanoo), the Pandora would stand alone if it were to just have Linux. Why would a developer develop a new emulator for it, they wouldn't, you would be waiting for New emulators developed for Android to be ported to Linux - not a great situation.
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and in this really ~WiErD~ future of yours will nobody be using Linux on their computers anymore? :huh:


(by the way Pandora IS a computer! :eek: )
 
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I'm just saying Android seems to be the future for new emulators not linux. I don't see that as weird , just a take on what's happening at the moment.
 
vcoleiro said:
I'm just saying Android seems to be the future for new emulators not linux. I don't see that as weird , just a take on what's happening at the moment.
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Just to blow your mind Android is Linux... W0ah..
 
vcoleiro said:
There's one reason a Panadora 2 would need to at least run Android, The future of emulation is on Android. Craig is 100% correct on this point, if you crave emulators for systems which currently are un-emulated, then you need to look towards Android. That's a game winner for me on just that point.


I struggle to see emulation development continuing for Linux, with other devices moving to Android (yes your Yinlips etc) and other linux devices dying off (Caanoo), the Pandora would stand alone if it were to just have Linux. Why would a developer develop a new emulator for it, they wouldn't, you would be waiting for New emulators developed for Android to be ported to Linux - not a great situation.
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I don't know how you figure this. Most Android emulators are pretty simple ports without much refinement, while Pandora has developers targeting it that know how to write emulator cores. This is in spite of having such a slowly increasing install base; something generating more units would get more devs. It's not hard to understand why: Pandora appeals to more technically inclined users and lets you develop with pretty transparent and low overhead access to things like the screen and controls. It's also easy to develop in C/C++ + ASM on it. And you don't have to do any stupid fake touch buttons. Yeah, you don't have to do them for Pandora 2 either, but that'd negate the whole incentive of getting your emulator on other platforms.


In fact, having a nice PC-like controls setup makes porting even easier. But I'm sure getting the keyboard from Android wouldn't be that much of a hassle.


I can think of one emulator that chose Android over Pandora, and that's nullDCe.. but has that even had a public release?
 
Android was based on linux, but it's different to the Linux the current Pandora uses. Which means an emulator developed for Android will need mods/porting to run on Pandora Linux.
 
jesus.. I was at work, too many responses...had to wait till I got home.

Binky said:
From a games'n'web noob's point of view, those aren't basic.


The relevant question is: "do n00b's have particular difficulty getting around the PandoraOS in its current form?"
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ok maybe that was a little too advanced. How bout these... (don't bother explaining them, and some may have been fixed)


Changing icons in mini-menu or the desktop


Sorting icons on desktop creating folders, remove/restore removed icons


click and drag with touchscreen


downloading new wallpapers


changing/downloading themes


changing colors of minimenu text menu (i'm colorblind found it very hard to read)


but yes general navigation after apps is not a problem

Exophase said:
ANDROID, I'm still trying to find what your argument is for making Pandora 2 Android exclusive. Most of your points about why it'd be good to have Android support are not debated by most of us, and have even already been brought up.
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mostly just polish and completeness of the OS... I can't describe better than it feels hacky... I find it hard to pinpoint specific things

It's not hard to imagine a device like Pandora having literally zero impact on the app scene. And you already say Pandora has virtually no games, so..
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virtually no commercial quality games... there are a few gems... I'm not discrediting the pandora as a platform... but the games would see a wider audience than 3000-4000

Android devices aren't PCs. You can't upgrade to the latest version as you please, there's an actual porting effort involved. Historically, a pretty substantial one. Whatever the next Pandora uses it isn't going to be some one off distro that exists in a vacuum, it will still see system level improvement completely outside of the device. Both in kernel space and user space.
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This was 2 part OS and applications. You can still play one of first android games "robo defense" written several years ago on the newest version of the OS.... it will outlive the platform which doesn't seem to be going anywhere. The app hasn't been updated in several years... through 3 os upgrades and a laundry list of hardware that wasn't even thought of when the app was last updated. The OS was designed to take any app and make it backwards compatible with older apps with seemingly no issues. APIs haven't been phased out, just increased in functionality.


Some of the oldest hardware (slower than the pandora) are seeing ports to some of the newest versions of the android from the community. I'd say get a SoC that is in a "google sanctioned" device like the Samsung galaxy nexus (TI OMAP4460) then 90% of the work will be done for you by the android community... and even google... all you have to do would be to fit it to the pandora specific hardware. I still don't know why more of a solid port came to the pandora seeing how it runs the same chipset as the Motorola droid and begalboard. I know this has nothing to do with it being a primary OS, but "borrowing" a heavily supported hardware setup would make updateing one of the potential OS's that much easier. Having a manufacturer supported "set it and forget it" is what the pandora needs I think. Focus from the community could then be used to helping out on other projects.

What situation are you describing exactly? What are we yelling at Craig for regarding hardware decisions? Do you really think Android gets a bunch of driver support that mainline Linux doesn't? You do know they use (roughly) the same kernel space right?
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this was hastily written in reply to stan's responce... I don't see anyone saying anything about hardware now that you mention it, say something about hardware not being backwards compatible with the current P1, supporting neon or something like that.

I don't see your point. No one was saying Android has a performance disadvantage. Pandora has the better emulator effort because Pandora has emulator authors who want to write code for it. What I can say is that, as a C programmer, having to wrap my stuff in NDK is a big pain in the ass.
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you aren't saying it, but many have said it in the past... something to the rhyme of the android compatibility layer was a hindrance on the performance of the OS and apps talking to the hardware. I only have a basic knowledge of programming and I bow to your experience in that... so I'm sure it is... I just know the tool is available... I hears screams of impossible when talking about writing optimized code for android hardware. (it's usually coming from people who have no experience doing it, or at least researching it though)

WizardStan said:
But I don't understand your opinion on this. You want Android, that's great, I get it. What benefit do you see exclusivity or even singularly primary support adding?
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It will add polish and standardization to a chaotic and rough around the edges platform. If you clean up the interface, make everything streamline, flow and transition from program to program the way other mobile os's do it, standardize button mappings in apps/games os etc.... Make it more touch friendly then you'll have my vote as it being good choice for primary OS. If you could throw webOS card interface, android launcher, iphone springboard, or meego's whatever it's called... throw an interface optimized for a handheld on it... that's what it's missing... and no minimenu while nice... is not enough. Power optimization is a big one for me... I know it sounds petty, but instant on... such a minor feature to a lot... having the ability to flick on your device in an instant and know it can last all day... that's another main issue.


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@craig's comments - I see what you're saying... others may not... but you are definitely doing the right thing...I'd like android cause it's not closed off... but whatever it actually ends up being... you do need something professional and complete to show off and market your device... something that just works. Nothing that feels hacked together or incomplete. Something people can recognize.
 
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vcoleiro said:
Android was based on linux, but it's different to the Linux the current Pandora uses. Which means an emulator developed for Android will need mods/porting to run on Pandora Linux.
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No Android still uses a Linux kernel.. My desktop Linux distribution is different than the Pandora, is it still not Linux?
 
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It is linux based - but very different, the point is an emulator developed for Android wont just run on the Pandora's Linux.
 
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vcoleiro said:
It is linux, the point is an emulator developed for Android wont just run on the Pandora's Linux.
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And?


It's obvious it won't run..

ANDROID,


The Polish and such you are talking about, I call Boring and Restrictive.


It's my opinion, but most likely shared with a bit of the community here.
 
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