Your Holy gaming Grail for Pandora 2..?


but these aren't exactly flying off the shelf.
Yes they did. They've been doing there best impression of flying for 4 years, at any rate. Even with no product there's quite a line of users investing and pre-ordering still, paying e-bay premiums even. The only thing holding them back is production, and I can only imagine the blowback they'd be getting right now if it were an Android device. With the Yinlips out, they'd be requesting their money back in droves.
have you used a yinlips? I have it's little brother the JXD S601 in my hands right now... it's even cheaper $85 but it ain't no pandora... the xperia play ($200) ain't no pandora... nothing comes close to the hardware IMO


the hardware is brilliant... That's what I paid for and feel I got my money's worth
 
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There is nothing like the Pandora running Android, I doubt there will be until we do something.


Keyboard, shoulder buttons, nubs, gaming controls 10 hour battery life. Win.
 
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Whoops, pardon me - I noticed some edited-in responses to some stuff I said. Sorry to hop back a couple of pages, so to speak!

However, I must admit that I do find it funny to see Android described as "professional" and as something that doesn't "feel hacked together or incomplete" - I mean, Android seems pretty unstable, and has the most inconsistent interfaces I've ever come across! The only thing consistent about them is the levels of "wow-ee it's a shiny graphical button" and cryptic obfuscation (honest question to everyone here: What would you put on a button for accessing spam e-mail?).
stability and consistency compared to the what's on the pandora now... that's very funny


EDIT: also you used a hacked together version of android for your comparison (honeycomb not FOSS) I just remembered... not a fair comparison of the os as a whole. Try something on a phone or something and let me know what you think.
I'd rather not waste money on a useless and unnecessary trinket like a mobile telephone, but I have tried it and, not surprisingly, I'm equally unimpressed... It's just not for me - I'm sure it works fine for folks who just like to passively consume and can deal with the many software niggles (or just don't encounter them because they aren't expecting it to be useful for computing tasks), but that's just not what I pay hundreds for, myself.


Also, yes, the Pandora is consistent and stable. It's one of the things I appreciate most about it. :) If yours isn't, perhaps a reflash or an RMA is needed?

EDIT: and you responded to something I wasn't directing toward you
Again, my apologies. As I said, it just - mistakenly! - reminded me of something that had recently been directed toward the whole community. :p
 
Shoulder buttons, nubs, and gaming controls are going to be more and more common on the cheap Chinese Android devices. You better believe that with Vita having two sticks the Chinese devices will pick that up too. And eventually they could end up not being mediocre, although reaching Pandora level is something else.


As Prometheus has said, with Android there's just less use for the keyboard. But it's reassuring that you're not considering dropping it. The battery life is something a lot of people just aren't going to really care about, especially when it comes at a big thickness price.


I just hope it ends up using hardware that justifies costing 4-5 times what they do.
 
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As Prometheus has said, with Android there's just less use for the keyboard.
I should clarify: It's not that there's less use as such (though without proper writing tools, I suppose you could say that). It's more that in my experience there's bizarre behaviour when using one, which doesn't occur when using the on-screen keyboard.


I gather that support for stuff like this is apparently supposed to be being fixed up in the next version, though, so it might be moot soon anyway, with any luck.
 
I'd rather not waste money on a useless and unnecessary trinket like a mobile telephone, but I have tried it and, not surprisingly, I'm equally unimpressed... It's just not for me - I'm sure it works fine for folks who just like to passively consume and can deal with the many software niggles (or just don't encounter them because they aren't expecting it to be useful for computing tasks), but that's just not what I pay hundreds for, myself.


Also, yes, the Pandora is consistent and stable. It's one of the things I appreciate most about it. :) If yours isn't, perhaps a reflash or an RMA is needed?
there's a ton of 3rd party solutions to most mobile computing things... I think most of what you are looking for is laptop replacement software. Most end users aren't writing novels on a 4 inch keyboard, or designing websites or whatever... most are writing short emails/texts and playing games.... I'm sure some do write novels etc, and for them maybe a more linux alternative is better... but agian I think the idea here is the common user and target audience. When I think pandora I think gaming handheld with a keybaord... not mini laptop with gaming controls... might just be personal perception though.


there is no doubt in my mind there will be a linux derivative ported to anything with the pandora name on it. In fact I bet you a dollar that's the first thing the community does. The first thing I do with my handhelds is modify the OS from stock. The easier the experience the better.


when I had my pandora I kept up to date with all the latest hotfixes and even tried some alpha/beta versions as well... had nothing to do with hardware... so no RMA was needed

I should clarify: It's not that there's less use as such (though without proper writing tools, I suppose you could say that). It's more that in my experience there's bizarre behaviour when using one, which doesn't occur when using the on-screen keyboard.


I gather that support for stuff like this is apparently supposed to be being fixed up in the next version, though, so it might be moot soon anyway, with any luck.
it's been fixed... at least for some of keyboard dock revisions... the problem was keyboard dock firmware not OS... you're talking about the delay between the onscreen output and the keyboard input right?
 
there's a ton of 3rd party solutions to most mobile computing things... I think most of what you are looking for is laptop replacement software. Most end users aren't writing novels on a 4 inch keyboard, or designing websites or whatever... most are writing short emails/texts and playing games.... I'm sure some do write novels etc, and for them maybe a more linux alternative is better... but agian I think the idea here is the common user and target audience. When I think pandora I think gaming handheld with a keybaord... not mini laptop with gaming controls... might just be personal perception though.
Definitely. I remember Craig once referring to the Pandora as a "micro computer", funnily enough. :lol: That's also how I use it. I, as with I would imagine most people here, am not "most users", as you can imagine. :lol: If I was, I'd've bought some Android also-ran and used that.


Anyway, please do point to these third-party machines, as I really don't want to have to buy hardware just to gut it in order to use what I want - I just don't have that sort of time! Until the Pandora came along, there really was nothing suitable (the "closest" alternative I've seen of late, though it does lose the gaming controls, was Sharp's clamshell Netwalker, but it's Japan-only and my Japanese isn't good enough to even get through the setup screens, let alone much else). (I don't buy x86 hardware anymore for a similar reason - there's no point to me racking up sales figures for bundled software I will never use, thus indirectly endangering support for what I actually do want to use because people will wrongly interpret those figures as meaning that everyone wants to use what's bundled.)

there is no doubt in my mind there will be a linux derivative ported to anything with the pandora name on it. In fact I bet you a dollar that's the first thing the community does. The first thing I do with my handhelds is modify the OS from stock. The easier the experience the better.
As far as handheld devices go, I expect hardware to work properly out-of-the-box, myself - I don't have the time to be messing around with removing, reinstalling, and whatever else, nor would I buy something in the hope that at some point, someone *might* also want to use what I use, and port it. This works well for me, and on the occasions where it doesn't, my business is lost and I'll buy from someone else in the future. :p

I should clarify: It's not that there's less use as such (though without proper writing tools, I suppose you could say that). It's more that in my experience there's bizarre behaviour when using one, which doesn't occur when using the on-screen keyboard.


I gather that support for stuff like this is apparently supposed to be being fixed up in the next version, though, so it might be moot soon anyway, with any luck.
it's been fixed... at least for some of keyboard dock revisions... the problem was keyboard dock firmware not OS... you're talking about the delay between the onscreen output and the keyboard input right?
Unfortunately, no, that's not what I'm referring to - I figured that that was an issue of that particular hardware, anyway. :p


What I'm referring to is the way in which, for example, entire pages will jump around whilst you try to input text, the cursor will sometimes do the same, and using the arrow keys to move up a line or two to add more to it (for example) will also cause the bizarre jumping around of the entire page, also along with the loss of the cursor so you can't actually see where you're writing (otherwise, the cursor will jump several spaces ahead of where it should actually be drawn, which is just as confusing).


Hopefully that's been fixed, too. I know it didn't occur with the on-screen keyboard, though, only the hardware one, which I gather was just a USB one with a different connector.


EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm not entirely sure we're thinking of the same input delay, either. The one I encountered was inconsistent between particular software, and when browsing it was inconsistent between sites as well, which suggested a software problem to me.
 
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I don't buy x86 hardware anymore for a similar reason - there's no point to me racking up sales figures for bundled software I will never use, thus indirectly endangering support for what I actually do want to use because people will wrongly interpret those figures as meaning that everyone wants to use what's bundled.)
...What!? Hey! Give me back my brain, Prometheus! :D
 
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It's not just the writing tools..


This might be a minor sort of thing, but I'll use my Temper port as an example (which admittedly isn't that polished for Pandora). It has netplay and stuff that uses the keyboard. And it like, has hard functions for some keyboard keys that I find really handy while using it, a nice bonus over the other handhelds, even if it's not that central. It was here I realized that having the keyboard had less obvious perks.


If Pandora launched with Android instead I probably would have just said "meh, use that Android PC-Engine emulator" and not bothered. And I have a good feeling that none of those emulators have these little extras for keyboards, even the ones that have iCP support. I get the feeling that this sort of thing will happen a lot more.
 
You have some interesting comment about software, and I have to admit they are mostly right. but seen what we have for 500$ and the cheap more powerfull chineese android gaming console for less than 100$ going on the same field is a simple comercial suicide
 
Wow, the debate is heating up :) What happened to Pandora Appstore 2 anyways? Now that was a debate!
 
@DaMummy:


I simply could not resist posting this


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As has been said before, the P2 needs something to distinguish/seperate it from the 'big boys'. I don't think having a keyboard is enough.


"Runs linux out of the box" is a distinguishing factor but let's face it - us linux enthusiasts are NOT a big market. Sad but true.


Android of course open up the possibilty of loads of 'apps' straight away (presumably no recompilation is required due to them being java-based?) which is a great selling point. But don't android gaming devices already exist? Isn't xperia play one of those? Again, I don't think the addition of a k/b is enough here...


If it turns out that setting up Android is quick and easy (I would be suprised...but what do I know), then great do it! But give users the option of installing the (perhaps not as neat around the edges) linux by maybe providing a small SD card with both OS's on and a nice little boot menu giving the option of installing either (unless there's enough space for a proper dual-boot obviously)


My personal opinion is that craig _may_ be better off creating a niche product for a niche market that already exists (that's us by the way - love classic games, love Free/open-source software, love linux)...but I'm no business man - Craig is.


(Hmmm, I seem to be arguing for both sides here...)
 
There is an app for Android in the works right now like Blutrol for iOS which allows you to map the screen presses to the keyboard/gamepad, that would be my first suggestion in getting the games working.
Oh great. So we get on-screen touch buttons because the least common denominator of Android devices has no buttons and then we simulate those touchscreen presses by mapping buttons to them. Seems odd, inefficient and a rather poor selling point to me. Personally I would prefer a port with a clear HUD instead of having touch buttons plastered all over it.


I have nothing against Android, nor do I mind a (default) dual-boot. But I think it will be hard to compete as an Android only product. The only reason the Pandora 1 isn't completely and utterly crushed by competition is because it caters to a niche market.
 
There is an app for Android in the works right now like Blutrol for iOS which allows you to map the screen presses to the keyboard/gamepad, that would be my first suggestion in getting the games working.
Oh great. So we get on-screen touch buttons because the least common denominator of Android devices has no buttons and then we simulate those touchscreen presses by mapping buttons to them. Seems odd, inefficient and a rather poor selling point to me. Personally I would prefer a port with a clear HUD instead of having touch buttons plastered all over it.


I have nothing against Android, nor do I mind a (default) dual-boot. But I think it will be hard to compete as an Android only product. The only reason the Pandora 1 isn't completely and utterly crushed by competition is because it caters to a niche market.

Nobody is going to port those top end games to some obscure Linux based handheld. Your argument does not even make sense, what are you saying? You would rather not have the games at all than have to have a background task handling the inputs? A task you would probably not even be aware of?


We want to be able to actually sell the P2 (if it happens) in large numbers with an OS which works and does not have 10-20% of people returning the console because they can't use it.


No body is stopping you running Linux, I'm just saying you should expect it to be a worse situation than the current Pandora.


I'm constantly being told I'm too optimistic and this leads to people being pissed off, but here I'm being totally realistic and it seems that it's just pissing people off in advance.


Cheap chinese consoles are not a threat, you could equally argue that people would never buy $500 phones as you can currently get $100 phones from HK which run Android but I don't see them having any effect on the market.


If the P2 is available without preorder, offers an exclusive package people want, with the long battery life, good gaming controls and the added benefit of the hardware being as open as possible I'm pretty sure we will sell more than the P1 - and let's not forget this community we have here, that adds a substantial value I feel.


Android = all the commercial games you can eat and being open = you can hack and play about with Linux until your hearts content.
 
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Cheap chinese consoles are not a threat, you could equally argue that people would never buy $500 phones as you can currently get $100 phones from HK which run Android but I don't see them having any effect on the market.

Unless you're only planning on selling the P2 for a short time, they will be. Expensive phones are not a proper comparison, because the more expensive phones are always the latest hardware. It's their selling point.
 
To further extend the argument, the phones have one feature that the future Pandora may never have, being a phone. Phones are a essential products for everyone now-a-days, and everyone is looking for the "best" package. Without a cellphone feature, John Q. Stupid-Public will pass over the Pandora. We are a niche. Console handheld gaming has also became a niche thanks to these phones.


Using Android for market pull will be a wasted effort as other devices will overshadow the Pandora because of the phones primary function: an always active communication device. Since it is a communication device requiring a man in the middle to operate, it must be supported by carrier. The carriers will then use their phones to make their contracts more appealing by cutting costs of the device, while setting people up for unfair data plans. To the typical consumer, the phone will be shine in a more positive light then a Pandora, because it will appear cheaper, possibly more powerful, and is a communication device. The lack of an always active communication device may also cause others to pass over it.On the otherhand: If android was offered along side a full linux distro in a possibly dual boot configuration, you will probably have some pull on the handheld gaming niche, as their would obviously be more games, but that is an arena that the Xepria play has taken, and it has a communication fuction.
 
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Nobody is going to port those top end games to some obscure Linux based handheld. Your argument does not even make sense, what are you saying?
I am saying that if the complaint is that the Pandora has immature software then having software which is not optimized for the control scheme will not solve that issue. Newer users will argue that they want to have an option to turn off the HUD overlay controls, which won't happen either (for the same reason that native Linux ports won't happen). I suspect they will conclude that the P2 software is not optimized for the device, unlike the mobile phones versions.


Sure, mapping the gaming controls will make it work better than the touchscreen itself, due to tactile feedback. But, I do question if it will truly give the P2 the mass appeal you hope for, since the massive market of Android devices contains many that are more robust, have a better design (in terms of visual appeal) as well as a higher quality and a large company behind them.


Disclaimer: I haven't actually used any of these button-touchscreen mappers and I cannot really judge properly how well it works. From what I understand, this mapping needs to be redone for each application and will thus give the software the same unoptimized feeling again. Unless this can be handled fully transparently for the user (e.g. through automated downloading of input profiles).

You would rather not have the games at all than have to have a background task handling the inputs? A task you would probably not even be aware of?
No, I would rather have a decent port, which won't happen unless the app is open source (regardless of OS used). Personally, I don't care all that much for the Android software library, but I can see that others do.

No body is stopping you running Linux, I'm just saying you should expect it to be a worse situation than the current Pandora.
If you intend to drop official support for Linux, then you are. As far as I can tell, most other Linux distros for P1 aside from the default are still extremely experimental. Which makes sense, since the developer community is split.

If the P2 is available without preorder, offers an exclusive package people want, with the long battery life, good gaming controls and the added benefit of the hardware being as open as possible I'm pretty sure we will sell more than the P1
Obviously. It is almost impossible to sell less. Let's just hope this will change later this month.

Android = all the commercial games you can eat and being open = you can hack and play about with Linux until your hearts content.
Oh, I agree here. Android should be one of the default boot options. I would not even care so much if Android is the default boot option, as long as the team officially supports and develops a Linux OS as well.
 
To further extend the argument, the phones have one feature that the future Pandora may never have, being a phone. Phones are a essential products for everyone now-a-days, and everyone is looking for the "best" package. Without a cellphone feature, John Q. Stupid-Public will pass over the Pandora. We are a niche. Console handheld gaming has also became a niche thanks to these phones.

Phones are also subsidized by data plans, making their off contract price completely irrelevant to most people.
 
As has been said before, the P2 needs something to distinguish/seperate it from the 'big boys'. I don't think having a keyboard is enough.


"Runs linux out of the box" is a distinguishing factor but let's face it - us linux enthusiasts are NOT a big market. Sad but true.
You should look up Disruptive Innovation, I think. :p


I firmly believe that if CircuitCo. and some of the other circumstances hadn't hampered production, the Pandora would have been one of those "new value proposition" technologies. Indeed, even without managing to disrupt large markets, you could easily argue that it has been, because it's serving a market that had few to no real products to buy, prior to its availability.

Console handheld gaming has also became a niche thanks to these phones.
So the press likes to tell people (and so gamers are given to believe without researching it), but the rhetoric is all revealed to be a bit of a swindle once you actually look into it.


Let's take the case of Angry Birds - the biggest, best-selling telephone-game of all. Few telephone-games come close to its levels of success, most sell a few hundred or a few thousand, with the unlucky majority selling almost nothing, or outright nothing at all. It's claimed that we all have mobile-telephones (which is nonsense - quite a large number of folks don't want or have any use for them, or just want a telephone that's a telephone, not some "jack of all trades, master of none" catch-all device), and that everyone plays games on them.


Curiously (presumably to avoid detailing the embarrassing gulf between purchasers and those happy with the demo), Rovio stopped reporting sales figures for Angry Birds after its first year, during which the 69p app sold less copies (~10,500,000 - no mean feat, of course! This was part of a figure of 42,000,000 that downloaded the title overall, with the vast majority being the demo, as you can see from the sales figures) than the £219/later-£135 Nintendo 3DS sold in its first nine months (~15,320,000).


Nowadays they just report "downloaded" figures, which includes the demos and ad-supported editions (some press outlets report these as sales, which is at best incorrectness due to poor journalism and inability to read properly, or at worst deliberate misreporting in order to suit an agenda). This is somewhat analoguous to a game company putting an ad-supported Flash demo on its website, then including page-loads of that as part of its sales figures. They wouldn't get away with it, but telephone-game vendors seem to be allowed to, because it lines up with the press rhetoric that keeps getting spouted.


What has *actually* happened is that telephone-games have opened up a different market altogether, which, whilst there is some overlap, is actually distinct from that of any sort of consoles. It's the same thing, in a way, as how Brain Training didn't cause people to buy Resident Evil, but did introduce people to a new medium from which they bought other newly-made games that did suit their tastes, thus growing the market.


Basically: These claims about telephone-games now, are no different at all to the claims circa 2005/2006 that Adobe Flash games were threatening home video game consoles. :p And gamers are still being just as gullible about it, too, to the point of believing that a massive market has suddenly become "a niche" overnight, just because some reports told them so, in spite of the facts that can quite easily be uncovered...
 
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