Your Holy gaming Grail for Pandora 2..?

[SNESFAN]

I must have misunderstood these comments then

Spoiler

Not that Craigix seems to give a shit, but if Pandora 2(whenever it happens) is a vast departure and/or is android-centric, I will not be willing to support them with my meager funds, I won't buy it. If you want android, get a damn touchpad-thing or cellphone, that's what it's for! EvilDragon's idea of an upgraded/enhanced version of the current Pandora for Pandora 2 with Linux as the primary os and the option to maybe have android as an optional, secondary os, however, I would wholeheartedly endorse. I just hope that Craigix will at least be willing to listen to ED, and that ED will be able to talk some(ok, a lot) of sense into him... :unsure:

Well without Android you can forget having cutting edge commercial, or virtually any commercial games.

deal! thats a fair trade-off.


i want carmageddon.....not possible, but thats the point

If I wanted an android device, it probably won't be Pandora 2...

android gaming handhelds, that are not a cheap chineese products (jxd/yinlips), or has bad (odroid) or not perfect controlls(xperia play) or lacking of features (all previous) is not a oversaturated market... still very niche to non-existant... if there were better options I probally wouldn't be hanging around here very much. In fact what would set the pandora aside would be the quality of all those catagories.


The only thing that comes close in my mind was the Odroid... a devleoper friendly, truely open android gaming handheld... (guides, tools, instrustions, manufactuer support and interaction, and open community) but it failed mostly (on our side of the planet) because the controlls were horrible and their main community wasn't english... so I know it could do tons better if done on the pandora platform.


I do think that there should be a way to bring the pandora's catalog over to the next gereration handheld... I'm not argueing that at all, but who says that something like ginge can't be done for the P1?


I think you missed my arguement by cherry picking mine was that for the next itteration I think craig should take a more iPhone/gph/sony approach on making a solid polished product... but "one up" those by not just looking flashy but being tuely open for devleopment and support for alternate options.

 

[WizardStan]

I must have misunderstood these comments then

Ok, maybe DaMummy doesn't get it, but the other two clearly demonstrate what I was saying: making a Pandora2 intended as an Android only device is a bad idea. We can work out the specifics later.

I do think that there should be a way to bring the pandora's catalog over to the next gereration handheld... I'm not argueing that at all, but who says that something like ginge can't be done for the P1?

That's only because of similarities between the Pandora and GP2X, and the missing compatibility layer only happened as quickly as it did because Notaz is awesome. We can't rely on him for everything. If Craig doesn't at least consider these similarities, it could be as difficult getting P1 software to run on a P2 as it is to get x86 software running on the Pandora.

I think you missed my arguement by cherry picking mine was that for the next itteration I think craig should take a more iPhone/gph/sony approach on making a solid polished product... but "one up" those by not just looking flashy but being tuely open for devleopment and support for alternate options.

And you missed my point in saying that most of us agree with you on the fundamental points, so there's no reason for you to be arguing at all. What we don't agree with is Craig taking an "Android all the way" stance and the idea that Linux and backwards compatibility will "just happen", and that this would be a better thing than supporting both out of the box.

 

[Exophase]

android gaming handhelds, that are not a cheap chineese products (jxd/yinlips), or has bad (odroid) or not perfect controlls(xperia play) or lacking of features (all previous) is not a oversaturated market... still very niche to non-existant... if there were better options I probally wouldn't be hanging around here very much. In fact what would set the pandora aside would be the quality of all those catagories.

It isn't going to matter if a handheld is cheap and Chinese if it's almost as good or better than what OPT can offer. Take the Pandora 1, remove the keyboard and put Android on it and suddenly it's a very, very hard sell against those Yinlips and JXD products that cost 1/4th as much and have newer hardware. OPT can earn its price more by being more cutting edge and that could win them something in their favor; they could even potentially out release phones since they don't need the same level of validation. But I don't think they really have the resources to pull that off.


Some people are saying that it doesn't really matter what OPT ships on the Pandora because if it lacks a standard Linux distro it can just be added later. I don't agree with this: I think it's very important that the standard Linux, Pandora 1 compatible OS is treated as a first class option. It needs to be on everyone's Pandora, built-in (not only accessible via putting it on an SD card) and consistently supported. Look at third party OS options on other devices, and you'll rarely see them taking off strongly. Because even for something like Pandora people see the OS(es) as part of the device package and don't want to be on their own or have to do extra work for it. And if it doesn't ship with the device it's unlikely it'll be out soon enough afterwards to get enough momentum. If you have something done half-heartedly it's going to be hard to motivate people to do more. Stuff like GINGE is great, but it's not perfect: it doesn't get things 100% right all the time (vsync problems, scaling problems) and it encourages developers to not work on extending their software for the new platform. And for what it's worth, I don't think getting Android to run Pandora programs is going to be easy.


If anything they can get away with focusing less on the Android side because it'll still be sufficiently supported by other parties.


Just want to re-iterate: Android only WILL alienate developers. Possibly not a majority or even a lot, but important ones that you don't want to alienate. Specifically emulator developers, the kind that were needed to do most of the emulators that were ported to Android. You could end up with a situation like Caanoo, where a lot of simple ports are missing despite having the same hardware as the previous handheld.

 

[Zuk]

Am I wrong, or aren't the vast amount of releases on android set up for a touch only interface? Doesn't that seem to counter the point of having the physical gaming controls?


Anyway, I wouldn't object to P2 having an option to boot to Android. Maybe NAND will be cheap and large enough by then to set up some kind of default dual boot option? Then you can have the best of both worlds. The downside would be the community/devs would have to maintain two OS's. I have an Android tablet that mainly sits unused because I personally do not like touch only interfaces. If I try to play anything but angry birds on it, it just makes me angry.

 

[SNESFAN]

I do think that there should be a way to bring the pandora's catalog over to the next gereration handheld... I'm not argueing that at all, but who says that something like ginge can't be done for the P1?

That's only because of similarities between the Pandora and GP2X, and the missing compatibility layer only happened as quickly as it did because Notaz is awesome. We can't rely on him for everything. If Craig doesn't at least consider these similarities, it could be as difficult getting P1 software to run on a P2 as it is to get x86 software running on the Pandora.

to be honest with my time spent in pandora community... that's pretty much what I witnessed... lots of little developers... some good ones... and under a dozen "great" developers =/= a good making for a platform.


to be honest, after 3-4 years I am not satisfied with how the platform has progressed in the realm of software. Maybe thats a selfish comment, and I'm sorry, but I don't take it back. When I bought my pandora and seeing all that it was capable of doing, I thought we'd see commercial games, or at least commercial quality games. (there are a handfull of good ones) but it's really not all that I expected... not even close. Feels like webOS all over agian. =( ...all talk.

I think you missed my arguement by cherry picking mine was that for the next itteration I think craig should take a more iPhone/gph/sony approach on making a solid polished product... but "one up" those by not just looking flashy but being tuely open for devleopment and support for alternate options.

And you missed my point in saying that most of us agree with you on the fundamental points, so there's no reason for you to be arguing at all. What we don't agree with is Craig taking an "Android all the way" stance and the idea that Linux and backwards compatibility will "just happen", and that this would be a better thing than supporting both out of the box.

I don't think android should just be an option though... well.. not exactly... I think it should be more of a primary focus... right now it's "an option" and you see whats going on with that... so no I don't agree "plain linux" should be a main focus... I don't agree with that at all. For all the reaons I mentioned. Linux "just happening is insanely more likely to happen than android "just happening"... linux runs on toasters....


but I still wasn't orginally responding to anything you or anyone else said really... well outside of commenting about the bashing. I was voiceing my opinions on what craig was suggesting... paying little to no attention to what anyone else wrote... I already know what most of you guys think about the subject... we've had it many times.

 

[WizardStan]

but I still wasn't orginally responding to anything you or anyone else said really... well outside of commenting about the bashing. I was voiceing my opinions on what craig was suggesting... paying little to no attention to what anyone else wrote... I already know what most of you guys think about the subject... we've had it many times.

I know, you said you thought Craig's idea was brilliant and that you think he should pursue it. I butted in to try and explain why Craig's idea is not so great and why there are better options. If you still think Craig's suggestion of ditching Linux and backwards compatibility is a good idea after everything said then there is nothing more I could possibly do to convince you otherwise.

 

[diligentcircle]

to be honest with my time spent in pandora community... that's pretty much what I witnessed... lots of little developers... some good ones... and under a dozen "great" developers =/= a good making for a platform.


to be honest, after 3-4 years I am not satisfied with how the platform has progressed in the realm of software. Maybe thats a selfish comment, and I'm sorry, but I don't take it back. When I bought my pandora and seeing all that it was capable of doing, I thought we'd see commercial games, or at least commercial quality games. (there are a handfull of good ones) but it's really not all that I expected... not even close. Feels like webOS all over agian. =( ...all talk.

Dude, were you alive to see games like Super Geometry Dust, PanJoust, Shootet, Wars: Commando, PaperWars, and probably others that I'm forgetting? It doesn't have to cost money to be quality. That's not to mention ports of emulators and great games like Frogatto, Lode Runner (Scavenger), Cave Story, Star Control II (The Ur-Quan Masters), VVVVVV, and others I'm not thinking of now.

I don't think android should just be an option though... well.. not exactly... I think it should be more of a primary focus... right now it's "an option" and you see whats going on with that... so no I don't agree "plain linux" should be a main focus... I don't agree with that at all. For all the reaons I mentioned. Linux "just happening is insanely more likely to happen than android "just happening"... linux runs on toasters....

What makes you think Android will attract so many people? It's not exactly special. If it would, though, having it as a secondary supported OS would do the job just fine.

 

[Binky]

Unless the P2 has a touchscreen-centic configuration (slidy-flippy screen, discussed in "A Pandora 2 concept"), I'm against Android as any kind of standard. We will be splitting both users and developers for the sake of two operating systems. one unpolished (unless there is some rapid improvement in the next couple of years), the other unsuited to the hardware.


We do have it from Craig "that the laptopishness will remain"; Don't scream too loudly yet!


We also know that his vision of a P2 will be "unlike anything seen on the market before"...

 

[SNESFAN]

If you still think Craig's suggestion of ditching Linux and backwards compatibility is a good idea after everything said then there is nothing more I could possibly do to convince you otherwise.

likewise

Dude, were you alive to see games like Super Geometry Dust, PanJoust, Shootet, Wars: Commando, PaperWars, and probably others that I'm forgetting? It doesn't have to cost money to be quality. That's not to mention ports of emulators and great games like Frogatto, Lode Runner (Scavenger), Cave Story, Star Control II (The Ur-Quan Masters), VVVVVV, and others I'm not thinking of now.

yes... never said there weren't any good games... just not what I was expecting.

What makes you think Android will attract so many people? It's not exactly special. If it would, though, having it as a secondary supported OS would do the job just fine.

It's more polished and user friendly... people like easy things... I'm not an idiot and I find the pandora confusing doing anything other than the most basic of tasks.

Am I wrong, or aren't the vast amount of releases on android set up for a touch only interface? Doesn't that seem to counter the point of having the physical gaming controls?

most are touch based but it's a catch 22 thing... more devices with buttons would bring more games that support it.


here's a running list on the xperia play forum of all "offically supported" games


http://forum.xda-dev...d.php?t=1217060


theres a ton that support keyboards and with some work could be mapped to hardware buttons etc.. the OS very recently has a system wide standard mapping of buttons that can be easily plugged in/swapped in an app. along with native usb controller support.

 

[elwing]

I'm not saying that android is THAT bad... but opt is doomed if they try to make an android device. I'dd never buy it, but that's not because I have problem with android or anything else, it's just that i'll take a good android phone + an icp or something similar over a pandora2 without doubt. I'dd get better value from big brands.

 

[Exophase]

most are touch based but it's a catch 22 thing... more devices with buttons would bring more games that support it.

here's a running list on the xperia play forum of all "offically supported" games


http://forum.xda-dev...d.php?t=1217060

The question you have to ask yourself is what would an Android-centric Pandora 2 do to motivate developers to support buttons in their games beyond whatever motivation they would have already had? Unless things are done very differently, probably with a large company buyout, Pandora 2 is going to still be small potatoes compared to Xperia Play. And especially compared to every Android device with physical keys of some other sort. There's just not enough incentive, commercial or personal, for typical Android developers to do much different for Pandora 2, in the same way there was no incentive for them to do anything for Pandora 1.


That said, this is a pretty damn huge list of games and I think quite a strong argument for getting Android running on a device with gaming controls like Pandora 2. It absolutely dwarfs the game library for Pandora (but I still contend that Pandora has just as good if not better emulators)

 

[WizardStan]

If you still think Craig's suggestion of ditching Linux and backwards compatibility is a good idea after everything said then there is nothing more I could possibly do to convince you otherwise.

likewise

I'm sorry, were you trying to convince me otherwise? I mean that in seriousness, I thought you were just taking a defensive position and thus I may have misunderstood some of your points. If you want to flip it around putting me on the defensive and presenting your case for why you think Linux support needs to be dropped fully in favor of Android for the Pandora 2, I'm willing to listen.

 

[Prometheus]

About the Xperia Play: Wasn't that a huge flop that stores just can't get rid of? If a big company can't sell such a thing, what chance would a much smaller one have, I wonder?

well outside of commenting about the bashing.

Please pardon me, but I must take issue with this. What bashing? All I'm seeing is people voicing legitimate concerns. These concerns aren't bashing in the slightest (especially since EVERYONE here agrees that Android as an option or even dual-boot if possible is a *great idea*), and they don't threaten Google or their OS in any capacity.


To summarise;


"Android is complete shit and should never have been allowed to exist." = Bashing.


"I don't feel Android is a good idea as the sole option and I would rather not buy it because <insert reasons here>..." = Legitimate concerns.

 

[diligentcircle]

It's more polished and user friendly... people like easy things... I'm not an idiot and I find the pandora confusing doing anything other than the most basic of tasks.

How would offering as an option to have the Pandora 2 ship with Android instead of Linux be confusing to people who only want Android?


As an aside, can you give examples of these "basic tasks" that are so confusing on the Pandora, out of curiosity? I don't really find anything confusing; only thing I can think of is the need to set up directories for PNDs.

 

[SNESFAN]

The question you have to ask yourself is what would an Android-centric Pandora 2 do to motivate developers to support buttons in their games beyond whatever motivation they would have already had? Unless things are done very differently, probably with a large company buyout, Pandora 2 is going to still be small potatoes compared to Xperia Play. And especially compared to every Android device with physical keys of some other sort. There's just not enough incentive, commercial or personal, for typical Android developers to do much different for Pandora 2, in the same way there was no incentive for them to do anything for Pandora 1.


That said, this is a pretty damn huge list of games and I think quite a strong argument for getting Android running on a device with gaming controls like Pandora 2. It absolutely dwarfs the game library for Pandora (but I still contend that Pandora has just as good if not better emulators)

All I can really say is that every device with physcial controls would help the software ecosystem, every little bit helps, I'm sure some of the developers for the pandora would be willing to port their apps over, I know not all, but it would only help the current catalog and bring more interest in both the device and control scheme. I think a common explandable platform that could theoretically survive any platform upgrade would be a good thing. Plus get their apps to more people. We wouldn't be in the situation we are now. You wouldn't have to yell at craig for not using chipset x or y due to lack of linux driver support.


I know standardization isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it really is a more orginized way to support software and make your software suvive I think.


I do agree the emulators ported already for the pandora perform better, but using the NDK (native development kit) you can write a lot your code for specific devices or architecture and make it more optimized. N64oid and fpse uses this and works for all armv7 devices (which is the vast majority of handheld android devices)

I'm sorry, were you trying to convince me otherwise? I mean that in seriousness, I thought you were just taking a defensive position and thus I may have misunderstood some of your points. If you want to flip it around putting me on the defensive and presenting your case for why you think Linux support needs to be dropped fully in favor of Android for the Pandora 2, I'm willing to listen.

Trying to convince you is a lost cause. No flipping is nessisary, I've heard and understand all the benifits of true linux. My arguements are already shot down before I state them. So... it's better to just leave it at difference of opinions, no use in trying to convince one another.

How would offering as an option to have the Pandora 2 ship with Android instead of Linux be confusing to people who only want Android?


As an aside, can you give examples of these "basic tasks" that are so confusing on the Pandora, out of curiosity? I don't really find anything confusing; only thing I can think of is the need to set up directories for PNDs.

setting up directories is pretty simple IMO, but I've seen that throw a lot of people off. Also getting all your files into the right place... I mean it's simple.. but I consider myself to be a pretty veteran computer user, most are not


perfect example... getting the pandora to boot off sd card with android... setting up partitions etc... it was pretty hard to figure out.. eventually did but what a pain


then tyring to repartition the card so it sees the whole thing rather than multiple different drives... another head scratcher

 

[Binky]

How would offering as an option to have the Pandora 2 ship with Android instead of Linux be confusing to people who only want Android?


As an aside, can you give examples of these "basic tasks" that are so confusing on the Pandora, out of curiosity? I don't really find anything confusing; only thing I can think of is the need to set up directories for PNDs.

setting up directories is pretty simple IMO, but I've seen that throw a lot of people off. Also getting all your files into the right place... I mean it's simple.. but I consider myself to be a pretty veteran computer user, most are not


perfect example... getting the pandora to boot off sd card with android... setting up partitions etc... it was pretty hard to figure out.. eventually did but what a pain


then tyring to repartition the card so it sees the whole thing rather than multiple different drives... another head scratcher

From a games'n'web noob's point of view, those aren't basic.


The relevant question is: "do n00b's have particular difficulty getting around the PandoraOS in its current form?"

 

[Exophase]

ANDROID, I'm still trying to find what your argument is for making Pandora 2 Android exclusive. Most of your points about why it'd be good to have Android support are not debated by most of us, and have even already been brought up.

All I can really say is that every device with physcial controls would help the software ecosystem, every little bit helps, I'm sure some of the developers for the pandora would be willing to port their apps over, I know not all, but it would only help the current catalog and bring more interest in both the device and control scheme.

It's not hard to imagine a device like Pandora having literally zero impact on the app scene. And you already say Pandora has virtually no games, so..

I think a common explandable platform that could theoretically survive any platform upgrade would be a good thing.

Android devices aren't PCs. You can't upgrade to the latest version as you please, there's an actual porting effort involved. Historically, a pretty substantial one. Whatever the next Pandora uses it isn't going to be some one off distro that exists in a vacuum, it will still see system level improvement completely outside of the device. Both in kernel space and user space.

Plus get their apps to more people. We wouldn't be in the situation we are now. You wouldn't have to yell at craig for not using chipset x or y due to lack of linux driver support.

What situation are you describing exactly? What are we yelling at Craig for regarding hardware decisions? Do you really think Android gets a bunch of driver support that mainline Linux doesn't? You do know they use (roughly) the same kernel space right?

I do agree the emulators ported already for the pandora perform better, but using the NDK (native development kit) you can write a lot your code for specific devices or architecture and make it more optimized. N64oid and fpse uses this and works for all armv7 devices (which is the vast majority of handheld android devices)

I don't see your point. No one was saying Android has a performance disadvantage. Pandora has the better emulator effort because Pandora has emulator authors who want to write code for it. What I can say is that, as a C programmer, having to wrap my stuff in NDK is a big pain in the ass.

 

[craigix]

The Pandora2 will never be Android only. That will never happen.


However I am skeptical about weather an alternative OS will ever be anywhere near complete or even working properly. My fear is that the situation could be worse than the Pandora1.


Android is all I know I can promise will work well and not give you major headaches.


This isn't just me being lazy, or making a strange decision, it's just realistic based on what I'm seeing happening right now with the latest Socs.


However, you do know that many of the apps and emulators you crave exist on Android right now, and if they don't the chances are they will soon.

 

[Binky]

Although android's usage of physical controls may improve, unless it improves quickly, android won't be much good on a P2.


Whats the use of an operating system (interface) that doesn't suit the hardware, with a floatilla of games that don't suit the hardware?


Like so much other P2 discussion this requires inside info on its form-factor:

If the P2 is going to be just like the P1 then I don't see much good in android.


If it is going to have better touchscreen access (comparable to smartphones*) then yes, make android

an

official OS



* no, I'm not saying the P2 should be a phone, but for a smartphone OS to run cleanly without modifications, it must, in some way, be phoney.


---


Has anyone explored the possibility of keeping the core android stuff that makes games/apps work, but writing a clean, new interface that makes sense with the P2's controls etc?

 

[Prometheus]

The Pandora2 will never be Android only. That will never happen.

Thankyou, Craig. That's all I needed to know.


I guess I don't need to keep looking for alternatives, now. I'll be very happy to have both Linux and Android and whatever else comes up.