Wrapping everything up!

ClockworkCoder

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Have you ever met someone with burn-out and / or depression (burn-outs can also easily lead to depression)?
Yes. I have close friends that are/have been clinically depressed, occasionally to the point of suicide. They also aren't liars.

Don't get me wrong, if they are depressed they need (professional) help and support and absolutely agree with your sentiment.

Someone can be depressed, stressed or burnt-out, but that doesn't make it okay to lie. Lying is a path to make things much, much worse (as I mentioned in a previous post). To knowingly deceive others can be a contributory factor to increasing depression.

I also suggested that his arm may have been twisted. If someone lies and it's not in their nature, then it may mean that they have been unfairly pressured by external factors. I'm pointing at FA here.
 
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EvilDragon

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@ED Maybe I missed it, but how do you know your contact is lying and not FormAction?
Well, I can't tell this for sure, but there are some indicators:

  • FormAction would be pretty stupid telling me they start the production now when they told us they shipped everything already
  • The new metal plates for the cooling (coated, so that I don't need to isolate them myself) are coming from a different company, and my contact told me multiple times he personally shipped these to me - and there's no tracking or metal plates here yet.
  • I explicitedly asked him to make sure that the cases have been produced and shipped by checking the packaging and getting a shipment number. He confirmed all that, but I've never seen anything yet.
  • He was the one organizing the transportation of the moulds, not FormAction. He organized the courier, etc. So if he tells me the moulds have been picked up... and now they haven't... well...
  • He started telling me the same things over and over again, week after week... I already became suspicious because of that and planned another trip to Greece in January to check on that myself. The email from FormAction just seems to have confirmed my suspicion.
  • I've sent him the mails (it was only two) from FormAction three days ago. The last thing I heard was that he wanted to check on the mails and call me back. I didn't hear anything from him yet. I've sent another email politely asking if he knows approximately when he would be ready to have a call and solve things. Without any blame or angryness, just find out what went wrong and solve it.
So yeah, I don't know for sure yet, but there were a lot of indicators within the last few weeks.

So right now, the only thing I can blame FormAction for is slowness and bad quality so far, but not lying.

The proper way in my opinion is to now move forward. I've let them exactly know my stance, gave them explicit deadlines and announced that I will move the moulds when these deadlines are not being kept.

Regardless if it was FA or my contact who were lying - what I do know 100% for sure is that I personally did tell them the deadlines and give them the information. So no one can lie to me now.
 

Swordfish II

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They are closed (as most companies are) from Dec. 24th to Jan 7th for christmas holidays, so I have to give them a bit more time, but if they don't finish everything until Jan 15th, it's over and we move.
Do you really though, at this point with all the lies and delays by them specifically?

Why is this time different than the other times they said they would do what they were paid to do (yet still haven't)?
 

EvilDragon

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Do you really though, at this point with all the lies and delays by them specifically?
Can you prove they lied and not my contact?
I can't. And I have no idea if my contact has told them all the deadlines I gave to him.

Why is this time different than the other times they said they would do what they were paid to do (yet still haven't)?
Because I made the deadlines and what will happen if they are not being kept pretty much clear, so I am 100% positive they now received them.
So there's no excuse for them, and even if they don't manage to produce them in time, I can pickup the moulds then as I now know they know about that.
 

levi

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In my experience it's quite common for someone on a loose leash to start telling fibs once things become more tricky, especially if they're working for someone who is nice and trusting. They'd rather keep them happy in the short term by lying to them, because when they're eventually found out a nice boss won't be too awful to them, and in the mean time all is good and unstressful. It's something of a lack of foresight, because they should realise that a short term bit of stress as they tell them progress isn't good will result in better progress overall and longer term happiness for them, but I tend to think that kind of behaviour is quite rare even in developed economies.

I don't think it automatically applies that anyone who's doing this is depressed, although they will likely become more stressed as their fibs are found out, so it might look as if they're down at that precise moment. But who can be sure from this distance, so treading carefully is probably for the best, even if it allows you to be more taken advantage of in the wider context. As a nice person myself, I've not found the best solution to this problem when I'm forced to work with someone at a distance.
 
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EvilDragon

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They certainly haven't honoured the contract....which is lying.
In what way?
The deal with FormAction is that they design the case and produce the moulds for a set price.
And the other end of the deal is that I have to order at least 500 cases from that setup (as such companies usually make more money from the production of the cases, not from the design).

That's all there is.
Yes, I've told my contact deadlines and asked him to check back when everything will be ready.
But it can't be proved that he ever told that to FormAction nor can I prove that he didn't. We know something is wrong there, but there's no proof who didn't tell the truth and who did.

So the only proper and correct way dealing with this is that I communicate directly with FormAction, without any middle man. As that means that I can be sure they know the dates and timeframes.
 

Grench

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So the only proper and correct way dealing with this is that I communicate directly with FormAction, without any middle man. As that means that I can be sure they know the dates and timeframes.
Sorry to hear about the issues with the contact in Greece. Hope they and theirs are all OK - or at least will be in the long term.

Good to see that you are getting things in order. Has FormAction agreed in writing or correspondence to the dates that you have requested?

With (hopefully) known dates for cases to be produced, maybe it is time to revisit the master list of 'things that need to be done before production' to see if anything else can be checked off or assigned preliminary dates for production?

Things known in-flight:
Production of new prototype PCBs - is Nicolaus done/submitted on the final tweaks/changes? Are they getting produced as I type this?

Prototypes...
The first message of this thread hinged prototype production on receiving cases. Are there other dependencies? If we're waiting on cases anyway, would the new batch of prototype PCBs arrive in appropriate time to use them for this?
 

EvilDragon

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Hm? New prototype PCBs? What for? The one we have are working fine and don't need any more fixes :)

So yes, we're only waiting for the cases and for Nikolaus to finish the files for the mass production of the PCBs.
 

vcoleiro1

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@ED If the deadline goes by . Will FormAction protest the move to a new case maker based on the fact they didn't get to make the 500 cases as per the contract.

ie isn't the contractual obligation for them to make the 500 cases still an issue?
 

levi

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I assume he told them that he considered it a breach of contract if they didn't produce the parts by the date they'd agreed. In which case, as he's already explained, the moulds are his property, NOW GIMME!
 

erico

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Move forward Ed, or wait for the resolution but don´t let the cases be what holds Pyra release (I know you know ;) ).
I´m confident you are handling this the right way, so I´m interested on news on other fronts, OS, software, battery management and what not.
Keep it up! :)
 

SneHebNor

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They are closed (as most companies are) from Dec. 24th to Jan 7th for christmas holidays, so I have to give them a bit more time, but if they don't finish everything until Jan 15th, it's over and we move.
Wow, I'm not aware of any company in Germany with such a long holiday.
It is too late now, but for the next project: Why not work with a local company, that one can visit by train easily?
My employer works e.g. with Bopla in Westphalia. They are not the cheapest one, but so far they never let us down for only a second.
 
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