Why the Android hate?


You read my tone wrong if you think I'm upset. I'm actually very curious of why one would think such a hybrid be interesting?
Well, if this were to go open source (like I'm trying to do) then, that would allow for tweaking and optimizing. This in turn would allow for any distro to be used in combination with Android (or possibly even more running in a Pandebian-style clusterfuck). I realize this could be written by someone from the ground up, but I'm trying to save the poor debs that get stuck with such a project time and energy. If they had a semi-working version of it to start off with, they could spend more time optimizing it than rewriting the entire thing
 
He's asking why it is desireable at all. Come up with a real-world problem and a detailed scenario where being able to switch between a full Linux and Android system would be the best solution to that problem.
 
Don't care about Android. But its always best to have a lot of choices, so I support those who want Android on Pandora

notaz said:
There are technical problems too like it starting to bloat quite a bit (I heard you can't even run 4.2 any more without 1GB or RAM, if you want apps you need even more, and I consider 1GB quite a lot for OS to take). Forcing Java on everyone is also not nice, RetroArch people say that Java's garbage collector constantly interrupting the process and causing hiccups make their release inferior to iOS.
I don't like the Java layer approach. In fact I hate Java. I don't get why every web oriented company is crazy about it. You can also use HTML, CSS and JavaScript for most platform independent stuff.

Why not "just" develop a desktop environment for phones/tablets? You could then combine it with every light wight distibution you like. Or is there a problem to get the drivers? smartphones are surely powerfull enough to run a non customised Linux. I know its a little simplistic and a lot harder than it sounds but (correct me if I'm wrong) the biggest problem is the interface. Also it shoud be possible to switch to another desktop environment for desktop usage (demonstrated by Ubuntu).

; )

Edit:

Exophase said:
Not necessarily using Ubuntu for the base of the Pandora OS, but a more standard distro would be better than Angstrom for a new device.
Beeing bleeding edge the P2 will hopefully get an Arch Linux Arm port : )
 
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He's asking why it is desireable at all. Come up with a real-world problem and a detailed scenario where being able to switch between a full Linux and Android system would be the best solution to that problem.
Exactly that. I do understand very well that this would be a lot easier to do, were the already worked-upon things at ubuntu-for-android free and open, and it is very nice to want to help those that wish to develop this thingie to an easier time, but I still don't see why someone would want it, what problem it would solve, and in what way it wouldn't make the world a worse place, all things considered?

Maybe I have the wrong mental model of what this is trying to do, but to me putting ubuntu on android seems like it would make it slower and more resource hungry by design. I can't see why this would be desirable. To me it sounds quite similar to "Well, custard is lovely and hot dogs is great, so let's make custard hot dogs!!!" which sounds great in theory but in practice ends up a great gooey mess with no redeeming qualities at all. What is it that this is trying to do, apart from the "Let's cram things in"-factor?
 
Now I've read the "Ubuntu for Android" page you linked back earlier, and it seems to me quite telling that on this page (which is really aimed at investors and partners, not users), they argue that Ubuntu for Android will be a powerful factor in convincing people to buy new multicore, 1gig+ phones... :unsure:
 
He's asking why it is desireable at all. Come up with a real-world problem and a detailed scenario where being able to switch between a full Linux and Android system would be the best solution to that problem.
Well lets be clear, it's not "switching". They would be running side by side. So, in theory, there would be two different UIs to choose from (like MiniMenu vs Desktop)


Desktop:


In the desktop you could have whatever distro you chose running as it normally does. However, you really want to use some piece of software like Netflix or Facebook messenger (not really sure what you all use on the regular, but the Android software library is very immense and offers something for everyone) but its only available on "consumeristic" operating systems. Luckily, you have [FUTURE NAME OF SOFTWARE HERE] installed which allows you to run Android side by side with you Linux distro. So, just double click the "Google Play" icon on your Linux desktop and it opens up in a window just as any other Linux app would. The only difference is there is a back button along side the "Close" "Fullscreen" and "Minimize" buttons since Android requires this for navigating through apps. You then download Netflix and Facebook messenger from Google Play. You look in you default application install directory used by all of your Desktop Linux apps. You double click both apps and they run in their respective windows just as any other desktop Linux app would (with the added back button on the bar of the window). So, now you have Libre Office side by side with Netflix and Facebook messenger. The ONLY distinguishable difference between The three windows (other than the fact that they are different pieces of software) is the small back button indicating its Android instead of Linux. Oh look at the time, you better get going. You switch to mobile view since its larger and easier to use when you're on the move.


Mobile View:


So, you are on your phone, or other mobile device (or you just decided to switch to the mobile view on your home PC for whatever reason) You are using the Android Gmail app. It's smooth and convenient. It runs in full screen and supports Landscape and Portrait orientations. But, you get an email with an attachment in a format that requires something not available in android (like a Libre Office file or a desktop Java Applicaton). However, since you have a really cool phone with [FUTURE NAME OF SOFTWARE HERE] installed, you proceed to open the file. And not to your surprise, but the surprise of everyone around you, it smoothly launches desktop Libre Office and opens the file in a Jiff. You view and edit the document with ease then save it to your favorite directory. You then realize you need to look at a web page and review the document at the same time. You switch to desktop mode. It can be rather difficult to use on a touch screen, but you can easily use a mouse or whatever peripheral you choose to make things a bit easier. Oh no, the web page has a Java element. No problem, your desktop Firefox has the plugin already installed and running. So while that loads over your 3G/4G/Train Wifi connection, you get a message in Google Voice/Hangouts/Facebook Messenger linking to a Spotify Playlist. You click it and it opens no problem. You hit play then switch back to desktop Firefox to find your Java web element loaded just fine in the background. It begins to play no problem as the JavaScript, HTML, and CSS all placed it ecatly where it needed to be on the page. Oh wow, the train ride is over and the playlist is on the last song. You close all the applications and lock the phone. You slip it into your pocket and your on your way. No computers holding you back, no desk where you're going. You bring your whole office with you.


Is that a good enough hypothetical for you?
 
And to be clear, both desktop and android apps can run just fine in both mobile view or desktop view. They are both there simply for convince and for the use case.
 
Well...I guess I'm just the weird one then because no, this idea does not appeal to me at all. I've never sat at a desktop machine and thought "Oh, how I wish I had the mobile app Foo here". Maybe I haven't invested enough time into the Android library, but still - My experience is that most mobile stuff is cut-down, dumbed-down versions of stuff that exists in better versions for the desktop. Will this change in the future? Well, that is anybodys guess, but I'd not expect it to. 

Likewise, whenever I've stumbled across a desktop-centered app whenever I've been using a mobile device, it has been a huge pain in the posterior. "you can use a mouse or whatever to make it easier" - Well, we're supposed to be mobile, remember? If my tablet isn't really a tablet but a tablet+keyboard+mouse+usb reader, then why am I not using a netbook or something with the proper hardware all in one box?

What about netflix? Or Spotify? Well, that goes to the other part of it: This seems like a huge, huge waste of resources. On what machine would this be desirable? A full-power laptop? Nope. It is supposed to be mobile. So, something like the pandora is supposed to simultaneously run double versions of major libraries, extra java machines and so on in order to seamlessly run google play? Even with more modern hardware by several generations, this seems like a huge waste. So there might be a few apps that really have no counterpart in the desktop environment. I'd expect the "proper" solution to this to be something like apkenv, not "Lets bolt two OSes on there and keep them together with some duct tape". 

Which, of course, goes to the third part of it: The modern obsession of cramming every usecase possible into one single device. I don't understand it, and I've never seen it work out well. This case above mirrors so many one-device-for-life-ad spiels that I've seen, and the reality has always, always been disappointing. Crappy on-screen keyboards with no feedback, or attempts to do touch gestures with the mouse, or whatever. My local huddle of iDevice fanatics who proclaims that their iPads really is the best thing since sliced bread, yet still is flooding their FB accounts with misspelled/autocorrected status updates and pocket-taken photos because the hardware which is good for some things is not good for all things. Good at swiping is not good for typing. No hardware controls means crappy onscreen controls. No depth means bad optics (which you can hide by running you photos through an artifical look-like-crappy-camera-filter so that it looks ironically bad). And so on, and so forth. 

Which probably, as I said, makes me odd. But no, that does not sound appealing at all.
 
I can understand that. What I don't understand is your aversion to signing the petition. I'm not asking anyone to commit to using it, I'm just asking people to add their name to a list to hopefully persuade canonical to release it, if not fully open source, but at least under the GNU GPL
 
Because if this is what it is aiming at, then it is aiming at making my devices (and everyones devices) worse, not better. I do not want to support that. That can't be too difficult to understand?
 
I've always wanted the "one device to control them all" use case. If I could carry my desktop in my pocket and use an interface that was geared around a touch and pick up and go environment and then dock it for the comfort and familiarity of my desktop, mouse keyboard monitor and all, that would be ideal in my mind. Plug into a TV and have all my visual media, streaming selections, games and the interface changes to a 10 foot view. Dock it in my car for a car stereo interface. Hook it up to a controller dock when I have time to sit and mobile game.

I don't do any super hacker serious business stuff like I used to I guess, literally everything I use a computer for nowadays I can legitimately see myself doing on this android Ubuntu hybrid magical device.
 
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I've always wanted the "one device to control them all" use case. If I could carry my desktop in my pocket and use an interface that was geared around a touch and pick up and go environment and then dock it for the comfort and familiarity of my desktop, mouse keyboard monitor and all, that would be ideal in my mind. Plug into a TV and have all my visual media, streaming selections, games and the interface changes to a 10 foot view. Dock it in my car for a car stereo interface. Hook it up to a controller dock when I have time to sit and mobile game.


I don't do any super hacker serious business stuff like I used to I guess, literally everything I use a computer for nowadays I can legitimately see myself doing on this android Ubuntu hybrid magical device.
Thanks! And thanks for singing the petition! It's gone over quite well so far. I a 1/4 of the way to the minimum threshold
 
Well there was a poll not that long ago asking which OS people wanted on the P2.  The choices from memory where

Linux

Android

Linux and Android both fully supported (as in supported by the manufacturer)

Linux and Android both fully supported was the winner by a long way from memory.

The reason I would like Android supported on there along with Linux is simple.   I want to play top Android games (and apps) on it including all the Android console games that will now start to be made due to Mojo, Ouya, Googles own system etc.

I want to play your Modern Combat 4, Nova 3, Hakken, Dead Trigger 2 and on and on.  

Having a Linux only P2 would limit it to being used as per now. ie all that you have is a P2 with better specs running the same apps and emulators as the P1. You might get one or 2 more emulators out of it over several years .  IS that compelling to pay another $500 for a P2, to run the sames apps and emulators that work fine on the P1 now?

. . ie a Linux only P2 is not compelling for me to buy it when it only offers pretty much what a P1 can do now.

The extra world of current & future apps and games on Android is whats needed to breath life into a P2 in my opinion.  It also certainly wouldn't hurt getting extra community/devs involved that would come in from the Android community.

In regards to having a Linux supported only device that you could load Android onto yourself. It's about as appealing as a PC Stick that runs & supports Android only - ie and then relying on the community to develop Linux for it.  It's the same situation in reverse and if your familiar with the PC Stick world, you would know it doesn't work - It's not a good situation .
 
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If we're talking about an implementation that prevents both the Linux and Android sides from using almost all of the CPU resources exclusively at any given time then yes, it'd be a bad thing. That'd be a bad design and the alternative - some kind of dual booting or launching one OS from within the other, like now - would be preferable. RAM footprint is more negotiable, you can put a lot more than you really need in the device.
 
If we're talking about an implementation that prevents both the Linux and Android sides from using almost all of the CPU resources exclusively at any given time then yes, it'd be a bad thing. That'd be a bad design and the alternative - some kind of dual booting or launching one OS from within the other, like now - would be preferable. RAM footprint is more negotiable, you can put a lot more than you really need in the device.
And who is going to spend time maintaining the P2 android version when already there are no resources to work on .next ?

This is obviously going to end up in a compromise for both the Linux OS and the Android OS on P2. Unless suddenly we get 10 more devs by magic to work on all of this. 

That's why I would prefer priority on the Linux OS at least at release timing, to ensure we have a solid base from launch.
 
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And who is going to spend time maintaining the P2 android version when already there are no resources to work on .next ?

This is obviously going to end up in a compromise for both the Linux OS and the Android OS on P2. Unless suddenly we get 10 more devs by magic to work on all of this. 

That's why I would prefer priority on the Linux OS at least at release timing, to ensure we have a solid base from launch.
So you think that the current Android PND stole a bunch of resources from the Pandora OS or what? I mean, it was done by notaz and while it may not have been an overnight effort I don't think it was this massive diversion from his usual work. Sure, it's a really old Android version at this point, but that has to be at least partially due to the hardware being ancient.

.next development isn't sharing resources with Pandora OS developers, in fact it's more something that other developers have to be into by design because it's an alternative (and strictly speaking, competing) OS. It's more likely more people don't work on .next because they're happy enough with the normal OS.

I'm telling you, there isn't that much work necessary to make an Android port good enough to be worth including. Any SoC that'd be remotely interesting and almost any external peripherals are well supported by Android. The situation is nothing like it was with Pandora and Linux/Angstrom years ago. It's not something that needs to kick off a new app ecosystem with its own APIs and everything, nor any kind of distro customization and presentation or a special menu.... this stuff is all already established. Vanilla Android is fine.
 
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