When Is The Real Release Date...

[Exophase]

Actually, you are wrong, because I know how to search the internet.
Nintendo announced the DS November 13 of 2003. It was finally released November 21 of 2004. The DS, despite its two screens, is not a complicated device, certainly less complicated than the Pandora. We don't have exact dates, but the DSi was first conceived in early 2006. More complex than the original DS and DS lite (but still less complex than the Pandora, I would argue), it took about 2 years before it was finally released.
The PSP was announced at E3 2003, and finally released a year and some later in December of 2004, but who knows how long they were working on it before it was announced.
Now, if Nintendo and Sony can't do it in under a year, what hope could you or anyone without a dedicated R&D shop have of doing it in that time, or 4 months, or 6 weeks?

Let's not make that comparison, the DS uses a custom SoC, the Pandora doesn't. Projects like "Touch Book" have been announced and released in the time period since pre-orders for Pandora were made available. Having a reference design (Beagleboard) certainly helps, although in Pandora's defense it was designed largely before the BB existed.

An experienced full time engineering team could have probably pushed the whole PCB design in well under four months if they were moving quickly. But the Pandora team has jobs outside of this and as far as I know MWeston was really doing the engineering work on his own. Of course, none of this takes into consideration the packaging and various other components.

 

[juniorm33]

Actually, you are wrong, because I know how to search the internet.
Nintendo announced the DS November 13 of 2003. It was finally released November 21 of 2004. The DS, despite its two screens, is not a complicated device, certainly less complicated than the Pandora. We don't have exact dates, but the DSi was first conceived in early 2006. More complex than the original DS and DS lite (but still less complex than the Pandora, I would argue), it took about 2 years before it was finally released.
The PSP was announced at E3 2003, and finally released a year and some later in December of 2004, but who knows how long they were working on it before it was announced.
Now, if Nintendo and Sony can't do it in under a year, what hope could you or anyone without a dedicated R&D shop have of doing it in that time, or 4 months, or 6 weeks?

Let's not make that comparison, the DS uses a custom SoC, the Pandora doesn't. Projects like "Touch Book" have been announced and released in the time period since pre-orders for Pandora were made available. Having a reference design (Beagleboard) certainly helps, although in Pandora's defense it was designed largely before the BB existed.

An experienced full time engineering team could have probably pushed the whole PCB design in well under four months if they were moving quickly. But the Pandora team has jobs outside of this and as far as I know MWeston was really doing the engineering work on his own. Of course, none of this takes into consideration the packaging and various other components.

Understand what your saying but Beagleboard wasn't really a reference as far as I know, it's a whole new design, yes, same components and compatibility, but I'm not sure as a reference how much help it was. So I think your reference is just as flawed as WizardStands, if your saying his is. But as has been stated the boards where pretty much done and up and running pretty quickly. To be fair this is what probably lead them to put together such an aggresive timeline. In the end it really ended up being everything else that took so much longer than expected. It's amazing how long that last 5-10% off a project takes to complete.

Edit - Basically saying I don't think the boards really had anything to do with the time it's taken to deliver the Pand.

 

[VRAndy]

Well, within four months time of starting to do the hardware layout, we HAD a working board that ran Linux and played games but what kind of dipshit would go into production at that point without doing any serious testing and software work?

If you could send this post back in time to the OpenPandora Team circa August 2008, I think that it would cure a lot of heart-ache.

 

[j6cubic]

It's amazing how long that last 5-10% off a project takes to complete.

It's well known that the first 90% of a project take 90% of the time and the last 10% also take 90% of the time.

 

[rabidpoobear]

Let's not make that comparison, the DS uses a custom SoC, the Pandora doesn't. Projects like "Touch Book" have been announced and released in the time period since pre-orders for Pandora were made available. Having a reference design (Beagleboard) certainly helps, although in Pandora's defense it was designed largely before the BB existed.

Understand what your saying but Beagleboard wasn't really a reference as far as I know, it's a whole new design, yes, same components and compatibility, but I'm not sure as a reference how much help it was.

He's talking about the touch book, not the Pandora. Touch book is basically a modified Beagleboard in a laptop enclosure with built-in screen / keyboard / batteries. Pandora is completely different from Beagleboard and no comparisons between the two should be made.

 

[rabidpoobear]

I don't now, I have been disabled for 5years now flat on my back 24-7, I wish I could work or be dead

Damn good trollin' there, he's getting better fast. PoisonedV's gonna have to defend his title soon

 

[WizardStan]

attention whore attention whore attention whore attention whore

Damn good trollin' there, he's getting better fast. PoisonedV's gonna have to defend his title soon

Define "better"?
I have respect for PoisonedV. He may be abrasive, but he's rarely wrong, and I don't think I've ever seen him intentionally bring up something irrelevant to the debate.

 

[juniorm33]

Let's not make that comparison, the DS uses a custom SoC, the Pandora doesn't. Projects like "Touch Book" have been announced and released in the time period since pre-orders for Pandora were made available. Having a reference design (Beagleboard) certainly helps, although in Pandora's defense it was designed largely before the BB existed.

Understand what your saying but Beagleboard wasn't really a reference as far as I know, it's a whole new design, yes, same components and compatibility, but I'm not sure as a reference how much help it was.

He's talking about the touch book, not the Pandora. Touch book is basically a modified Beagleboard in a laptop enclosure with built-in screen / keyboard / batteries. Pandora is completely different from Beagleboard and no comparisons between the two should be made.

Ok cool, I misunderstood what he meant. I agree bb and pand shouldn't be compared in that regards, which I've seen happen. I should've re-read it, not the kinda thing I would've expect from Exophase, sorry mate

 

[Exophase]

He's talking about the touch book, not the Pandora. Touch book is basically a modified Beagleboard in a laptop enclosure with built-in screen / keyboard / batteries. Pandora is completely different from Beagleboard and no comparisons between the two should be made.

You make it sound like Touch Book is using Beagleboards that have had their headers desoldered. That would be more like OSWALD. Does this look like a Beagleboard to you?

http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Board

Touch Book is using manufactured PCBs and the schematics are freely available like Beagleboard's are. Just because the design references Beagleboard's schematics doesn't mean that Pandora's is so much different, afterall, despite leveraging a lot of interface complexity by hanging modules off of USB, Touch Book still had to add components such as the touchscreen controller, accelerometer, builtin USB hub, and so on. If you compare BOMs between the Beagleboard, Touchbook, and Pandora I think you will find that the Touchbook and Pandora both have a similar amount in common with the Beagleboard.

And you don't know that the Pandora team never referenced Beagle schematics during development of the board. Especially since they have had insider TI communciation that could have gotten them the schematics before the Beagleboard was even out to the public. For comparison, it's well believed that GPH's Wiz design is derived from a Magic Eyes reference design.

I'm not trying to take away from Pandora's design, rather I'm trying to show the value in Touch Book's. I would also say it is more mechanically complex. It really goes to show that something like Pandora could have been done in a much shorter timespan if performed by a company with sufficient resources, and I'm not talking about Sony or Nintendo but something even with whatever "Always Innovating" has.

... actually, now that this thread has gotten me to dig deeper into Touch Book I see it's a really cool device. Good thing for Pandora they weren't aiming to build a gaming handheld instead.

 

[rabidpoobear]

He's talking about the touch book, not the Pandora. Touch book is basically a modified Beagleboard in a laptop enclosure with built-in screen / keyboard / batteries. Pandora is completely different from Beagleboard and no comparisons between the two should be made.

You make it sound like Touch Book is using Beagleboards that have had their headers desoldered. That would be more like OSWALD. Does this look like a Beagleboard to you?

http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/Board

I'm not trying to take away from Pandora's design, rather I'm trying to show the value in Touch Book's. I would also say it is more mechanically complex. It really goes to show that something like Pandora could have been done in a much shorter timespan if performed by a company with sufficient resources, and I'm not talking about Sony or Nintendo but something even with whatever "Always Innovating" has.

... actually, now that this thread has gotten me to dig deeper into Touch Book I see it's a really cool device. Good thing for Pandora they weren't aiming to build a gaming handheld instead.

Thanks for clearing that up, Exo. I'll leave up my old post for posterity but I see your point about the Touch Book. It is definitely cool. Have they actually mass-produced though or are they still testing in small batches?

 

[rabidpoobear]

attention whore attention whore attention whore attention whore

Damn good trollin' there, he's getting better fast. PoisonedV's gonna have to defend his title soon

Define "better"?
I have respect for PoisonedV. He may be abrasive, but he's rarely wrong, and I don't think I've ever seen him intentionally bring up something irrelevant to the debate.

Well I don't consider trolling a matter of rightness / wrongness. "He may be abrasive" is really the point. PoisonedV irritates because he has so much insight and it's unnerving, and he won't sugarcoat stuff for you. RedBaron's trolling is more in the "sadness" realm. He makes me think of droopy dog.

 

[Exophase]

I think it's still beta/limited supply, although it's difficult to tell exactly.

 

[juniorm33]

Apart from company espionage which is always possible, I remember him saying he built it from scratch but my memory could be wrong, if anything took offence people thinking it's a bb revision. But my point was don't think the boards are what was the major delaying factor. Interesting reading Exophase

 

[craigix]

It was made from scratch, and you are also forgetting the custom nubs, custom keyboard, custom controls, custom TV out cables, custom (twisted) LCD cable, custom hinge design (and the rest).

Then you have testing those custom controls and getting them right. There is a lot more to that than you might imagine. Then there is the size issue, it's a lot harder and time consuming to get everything in a box the size of a DS.

The touchbook, while a nice device, isn't anywhere near as complex as the Pandora, would not have anywhere near as long a testing/tweaking period and it's also $400 for less hardware.

I also suspect it won't be an 8 layer PCB either (although I don't know, but I'd suspect it's 6 maximum).

They also had the advantage of having the beagleboard to base a design around.

In other words it would be far far easier to make the touchbook, but not half as interesting and challenging.

 

[Exophase]

It was made from scratch, and you are also forgetting the custom nubs, custom keyboard, custom controls, custom TV out cables, custom (twisted) LCD cable, custom hinge design (and the rest).

I think you're forgetting that Touch Book also has a custom keyboard and hinge design. Given that it's detachable it poses mechanical challenges in addition to Pandora's, it also has a magnet framing design as part of the case. The TV out cable is pretty auxiliary and I don't think anyone can link Pandora's development time to their existence. It would appear that Touch Book also has a twisted LCD cable of its own. Certainly controls, especially the nubs, add extra work over the Touch Book, but just how much is a matter of speculation. I don't think it's night and day, although the nubs were obviously an obstacle given their complete design for the project.

Then you have testing those custom controls and getting them right. There is a lot more to that than you might imagine. Then there is the size issue, it's a lot harder and time consuming to get everything in a box the size of a DS.

The touchbook, while a nice device, isn't anywhere near as complex as the Pandora, would not have anywhere near as long a testing/tweaking period and it's also $400 for less hardware.

The size is an additional engineering challenge, I will give you that much.

How much less hardware? You get a bigger screen, two batteries, an accelerometer, and several more USB ports, what you don't get is the controls, TV out, half the NAND and an SD slot. Let me know if I'm missing anything. It sounds like kind of a toss-up.

I don't know about the board complexity/layering. They save on this by bringing BT and WiFi in from USB, which probably saved them from a lot of the headaches OP had with WiFi as well (while adding some disadvantages). But I think they have more ICs, including an LCD controller for some reason. I don't know how much size impacts this but I don't think their board is a ton larger either.

It looks like they've done a pretty good job on the OS. Anything regarding testing is largely speculation.

Whether or not having Beagleboard to base a design around is an advantage it's still something that someone else could have came and done with a gaming handheld. Fortunately no one has tried that. I hardly think that all would have failed where OP hasn't, and sorry to say, but I think that there are companies out there who could have gotten it done more quickly.

Bottom line is that if it were 100% expected and reasonable for Pandora to take this long then OP really had no business pushing it as if it would be shipping in 2008.

 

[craigix]

This is one of the few conversations where you really don't know what you are talking about and are making wild guesses of which you would mock other users if this were about, for example, emulation.

I'd expect better from you, I can only assume you are tired and emotional.

 

[aaronson911]

This is one of the few conversations where you really don't know what you are talking about and are making wild guesses of which you would mock other users if this were about, for example, emulation.

I'd expect better from you, I can only assume you are tired and emotional.

Hey Cragix I don't think expophase comments are really that inaccurate. His last line may be a little biting but I don't think his post is full of any misinformation and I don't think he deserves you reply. What exactly did he say the makes you feel that he "does not know what he is talking about."

 

[atomicthumbs]

Yes and no, I have designed communication equipment and there was only three of us one being the finance and acquisition manager, I would say it was cutting edge stuff, the Sweden the Germans could not get it to work after spending about $10 million dollars but we did and the 1" thick report from Germany had on the last page  wounderbah I think that how it is spell (harsh environment computerized control equipment) it is still working today

So you installed a PLC in an IP68 enclosure?

More likely he designed equipment that's hardened against radiation.

Keep in mind that right now the Space Shuttle is using hardened 386 processors because it takes that long to test them

 

[ljones]

Bottom line is that if it were 100% expected and reasonable for Pandora to take this long then OP really had no business pushing it as if it would be shipping in 2008.

I'm no expert or big-time forum poster around here -- will say this though I guess the whole experience involving the pandora on these forums and in its construction has been a journey for everyone involved. And quite a steep learning curve too. We've all learnt along the way one way or another. And all the lessons learnt will come in useful for next time !

ljones

 

[Exophase]

This is one of the few conversations where you really don't know what you are talking about and are making wild guesses of which you would mock other users if this were about, for example, emulation.

I'd expect better from you, I can only assume you are tired and emotional.

Or not, I'm not tired or "drunk" like you asked in your IM to me, and I don't think there's anything emotional about my post. Yours on the other hand...

I don't mock other people, if I think they're wrong about something I explain why. Which is better than you're doing right now. I won't deny that Pandora is a more complex endeavor than the Touch Book but at the same time you're clearly underestimating it, really I would expect that if anyone it'd be a Pandora developer who could respect the amount of work that goes into something like this.

I'm not discounting the effort and progress you guys have made by any means but it'd be nice if for once, instead of offering excuses for why Pandora has been delayed over a year, delayed beyond the release of several other Cortex-A8/SGX devices, just admit that as a small number of people working on this as largely secondary work and relying a lot on volunteer help and preorder money you can't deliver quite as quickly as every last major company on earth. Even some not as big as Sony or Apple or whatever.