What Does This Mean?

[darionapole]

my cellphone crashes when playing/stoping/playing/stoping a video too fast, and i'm not complaining about it. just get over it. it'll be fixed in about two months it's not that you would have to power off/on every two minutes cause it crashed like the gp2x. Talking about the gp2x, i remember that it had far more issues that this.

 

[hobbyman II]

it'll be fixed in about two months

was that a bit tongue in cheek? <_<

@Kodeln

I can use command line, and I can find my way around, tweak stuff etc, but I'm the worlds worst typist, so clicking an option or selecting a checkbox is my prefered day to day usage, otherwise it's miles and miles of mistyped commands.

edit: just checked, both my phones power up and show a charging animation when put on charge, even if turned off.

 

[Aimless_E]

Ultimately that is why the OP team is gracing us with the option to choose how we use our device. I don't think people shy away from none WIMP style interfaces because they don't know how to use them, but because they have little understanding of what a computer is and what an OS is. Case in point, some one on the first page of this thread made a statement about having three operating systems on the Pandora. This of course is a simple miss understanding but it is indicative of the way that people view computers. The problem with netbook interfaces and the common man is that they see a small laptop and think it should work like its larger counterpart. But give the same man a new device ,say a cell phone, and they expect anything other than the WIMP style interface.

Thankfully the Pandora isn't a Netbook or a laptop but a UMPC which has fared better with non-WIMP interfaces.

Back on topic: I wonder how "slow" slow is in regards to both video and wifi.

 

[WhiteBat]

I think what ED means about the 3 different operating systems is:

Full linux Desktop
Pmenu
mini kernel _just for charging_ (just the charging animation)

one feature i might recommend to the OS is a lid close count log.
that way if hinges start to fail or get loose, we can check the log and see how many times the lid has been shut.
just an idea, before i forget.

 

[fischju2000]

There are videos of Pmenu browing and launching apps as well as the full desktop. It always looks much, much easier in Pmenu. I see much more usability in a more minimal and small-screen designed interface than a regular desktop. Could you imagine if the iPhone ran a full desktop rather than the rather nice finger-friendly UI? Yes the Pandora has plenty of input options for navigating a full desktop but it's just not as easy to use and adds overhead. (I will be using Pmenu. Or Panorama. Or Mir? Though that netbook launcher looks nice too...)

XMMS on Angstrom looked very hard to use, my choice of OS depends a lot on how nice the file manager/media players are.

The biggest question is: Can we skin that mini-kernal's charging animation and background. I'm still hoping for that flying-things animation from way back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P8Bzmd-7Mg&feature=related to be somewhere in the Pandora.

 

[Consequence_9]

I think what ED means about the 3 different operating systems is:

Full linux Desktop
Pmenu
mini kernel _just for charging_ (just the charging animation)

one feature i might recommend to the OS is a lid close count log.
that way if hinges start to fail or get loose, we can check the log and see how many times the lid has been shut.
just an idea, before i forget.

no, I'm pretty sure he means 3 operating systems. We've already seen ubuntu, angstrom & android; also someone is working on gentoo.

 

[urjaman]

The biggest question is: Can we skin that mini-kernal's charging animation and background. I'm still hoping for that flying-things animation from way back http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P8Bzmd-7Mg&feature=related to be somewhere in the Pandora.

I'm actually a bit interested in implementing this "charger-mode" if i'd just have have the time and a pandora

I think it would be unwise to make a special mini-kernel for the charging animation. Instead we should make the information on whether the device was booted normally or by AC charger attachment available to userspace and have early-userspace/initramfs detect this and (possibly temporarily) stop booting and show any animation wanted, turn on/off display based on lid position and monitor power button so that pressing it shortly would continue the normal pandora boot sequence (= really boot the pandora, but faster since the kernel is already running). Also if AC power is removed, say something like "Press power button withing 10 seconds to start the pandora" and then turn off to save power (also, if AC is re-applied, just go back to charger mode).

Well, atleast the idea is out of my head now.

 

[WizardStan]

I think it would be unwise to make a special mini-kernel for the charging animation. Instead we should make the information on whether the device was booted normally or by AC charger attachment available to userspace and have early-userspace/initramfs detect this and (possibly temporarily) stop booting and show any animation wanted, turn on/off display based on lid position and monitor power button so that pressing it shortly would continue the normal pandora boot sequence (= really boot the pandora, but faster since the kernel is already running). Also if AC power is removed, say something like "Press power button withing 10 seconds to start the pandora" and then turn off to save power (also, if AC is re-applied, just go back to charger mode).

I imagine the mini-kernel for charging is so it can be charged from an off state. Every phone I've ever used couldn't be charged from off. Even if it was off, plugging in the charger turned the screen on and displayed some kind of "charging" animation. It's a mini-kernel that does nothing but regulate the battery charging circuit, only takes about a quarter of a second to load, and can abort and load the full system if the power button is pressed. I believe that's what EvilDragon is talking about. Booting completely to the desktop just to charge seems overkill, and the way you've described it sounds extremely complex, and complexity causes bugs.

 

[EvilDragon]

I don't see any serious problems on the list, except for maybe ALSA crashing.

... and that one seems to have been fixed

Hmm. This is starting to sound like it may be a mess, especially for people who aren't linux experts. It will take some organization/officially supported versions to keep it from becoming a hundred variations and modifications of the OS with a hundred different quirks and issues. Three operating systems available the first time you start it looks nice at first glance. But some users are going to be completely lost if forum members start releasing their own complete operating systems with little changes rather than those changes being put into an official Angstrom/Pmenu/ect update.

If you don't know much about Linux, you should probably just read the essential thing I did post:
"So, to sum it up:
You can expect an almost fully working system. You can easily play games by simply copying them on the SD card and inserting it.
You have three different GUIs you can use. For demanding apps (or apps that need a fast OpenGL ES), you need to quit X for the moment. The system will do that automatically for you, but that does mean that all other running apps are being terminated at the moment (but hey, who wants to read eMails while playing stuff like Quake 3?)

Most will work, it is just a bit rough around the edges. But that will be fixed in future firmware upgrades. I'm sure a lot of devs who get a Pandora will also start to work to make things better, so expect a LOT of stuff happening just after release."

Only major nonworking stuff in that list is ALSA and WiFi, with ALSA already fixed.

My sony-ericsson cell phone has to be turned on to charge the battery.
When you plug it while it is turned off, it startup a small interface that informs you that the battery is charging...
And that's exactly what the Pandora will do later, based on what ED wrote on the blog.

Yep, that's what I meant with that.

What exactly is the 3rd GUI option: "netbook-launcher". Everyone is familair with Pmenu now but it's the first time I've heard of Netbook-launcher. If someone has some info it would be greatly appreciated. It's nice to see the dev have working on a number of things

I seem to recall ED mentioning something about providing the interface from Ubuntu Netbook Remix as an option. The "netbook-launcher" is probably that. (It's rather nice, I can imagine it working rather well on a handheld.)

Exactly. You can either start as default GUI XFCE4, pmenu or netbook-launcher. You can change that anytime you want and you can switch from and to the different guys whenever you want.

None of the problems seem to be "that" detrimental to the overall use of the Pandora. The only thing that strikes me as odd is the video driver issues. Are the Power VR drivers designed for fb access only? If so that would explain most of the X's problems.

The only issue is OpenGL ES in X. It does run, but slower than on the Framebuffer.
The X driver does work with video acceleration, it might also be a problem of mplayer.
MPlayer has ALWAYS had some issues (took me quite a while getting it to work nicely on my PC), so it wouldn't surprise me.
The MPlayer cpasjuste has included into pmenu does work fine, and that also uses X.

Netbook-launcher is very nice indeed, and will be quite awesome with PND support. I wonder if they are using the standard Ubuntu version (heavily leans on compositing) or the EFL version they have been whispering about.

It is indeed the EFL.

I only worry that having to many options will cause a support nightmare down the way.

Not really. After all, netbook-launcher is basically just an app which displays the normal freedesktop.org Startmenu
No miracle at all.
The apps you run are the same, regardless with what GUI you start them.

I think what ED means about the 3 different operating systems is:

Full linux Desktop
Pmenu
mini kernel _just for charging_ (just the charging animation)

Nope.
The Full Linux Desktop is XFCE4. The minimal one just for playing games is pmenu.
Netbook-Launcher is somewhat inbetween. It is a nice menu which can run all apps XFCE4 can also run, with windows, etc.

 

[EvilDragon]

I think it would be unwise to make a special mini-kernel for the charging animation. Instead we should make the information on whether the device was booted normally or by AC charger attachment available to userspace and have early-userspace/initramfs detect this and (possibly temporarily) stop booting and show any animation wanted, turn on/off display based on lid position and monitor power button so that pressing it shortly would continue the normal pandora boot sequence (= really boot the pandora, but faster since the kernel is already running). Also if AC power is removed, say something like "Press power button withing 10 seconds to start the pandora" and then turn off to save power (also, if AC is re-applied, just go back to charger mode).

That is basically exactly what will happen - except for that not the full system will bootup when you connect AC, but only the small kernel. No need running tons of stuff that need power when you only want to charge.
If you move the power switch while it's in that charging mode, it will bootup the Pandora normally.

 

[puppydee]

I've seen all the os videos along the way by ed and mweston etc so I'm not worried at all, once more pandoras are in devs hands the ToDo list will be sorted in the first few weeks, all the fun of being a pre-orderer that's why we're the guinea pigs. Remember this aint Sony or Nintendo! :blink:

Edit: after thought, Why is it everyone always looks for the bad in everything rather than the good?

For those who forget how well the os runs already!!!

http://pandorapress.net/2009/12/08/pandora-os-snippet-1/
http://pandorapress.net/2009/12/09/pandora-os-snippet-2/
http://pandorapress.net/2009/12/17/pandora-os-snippet-3/

pinched your links off the blog gruso

 

[urjaman]

I imagine the mini-kernel for charging is so it can be charged from an off state.Every phone I've ever used couldn't be charged from off. Even if it was off, plugging in the charger turned the screen on and displayed some kind of "charging" animation.

Booting to charge seems to be the standard on these TI phone chipsets. My phone does it, and it actually does exactly what i'm suggesting = dont change the kernel, change the userspace.

It's a mini-kernel that does nothing but regulate the battery charging circuit, only takes about a quarter of a second to load, and can abort and load the full system if the power button is pressed. I believe that's what EvilDragon is talking about. Booting completely to the desktop just to charge seems overkill, and the way you've described it sounds extremely complex, and complexity causes bugs.

I think what I'm suggesting is simpler and removes redundancy and moves this type of logic to userspace so it's easier to debug and "skin"/extend. I guess it depends.
Regarding boot-to-charger-mode speed, I'm guessing the pandora kernel takes 0.5-2s to "boot" (=before early userspace can run). Making it boot faster would mean lots of at the moment near useless kernel hacking for near no practical use. Storing two (one full-blown and one near-full-blown) linux kernels on the nand is a waste of NAND space if the main kernel would suffice. Writing even a _really_ simple (non-linux) kernel just to handle the charge circuit + power button + led would be some low-level work which has already been done, altough it might boot in less than 0.1s - and it would be quite hard to customize. ...

 

[laurencevde]

Shouldn't it be possible to run Pmenu and an X-server (with xfce or netbook-launcher) at the same time, on different virtual terminals? And, on a related note, shouldn't it be possible to start a game on a separate VT without killing X?

 

[EvilDragon]

Shouldn't it be possible to run Pmenu and an X-server (with xfce or netbook-launcher) at the same time, on different virtual terminals? And, on a related note, shouldn't it be possible to start a game on a separate VT without killing X?

All three, pmenu, XFCE4 and netbook-launcher run on one X-Server.
Why would you want to increase startup time, CPU load and decrease the available memory by running all three at once?

Also, the reason for games not running on X is mostly that they have as much CPU and memory available. That's why X can be stopped for them.
It's an option - you can also run games on X.

 

[laurencevde]

Oh, I thought Pmenu was running on the FB. must've mistaken it for some other loader...
And, as OpenGL seems to be faster on the FB than on X, that alone is a viable reason for running games outside of X. But you won't have to stop X for that. Swap comes in handy here, and a bit of renicing(nice and ionice). If the game needs too much memory, the other running things can move to swap, and the renicing gives the game all the CPU it needs. No need to kill X. (and hey, I want to be able to read that manual/walkthrough while playing ☺.
It also makes sense for games that do need X to run on a different FB/second X-server. That way, things like compositing won't slow it down, and you won't have conflicting/annoying keybindings.

Anyways, you could make killing X a (game-specific) option, but it shouldn't happen by default.

 

[EvilDragon]

Anyways, you could make killing X a (game-specific) option, but it shouldn't happen by default.

It is a game-specific option. It's setup in the PXML file.

 

[WizardStan]

Storing two (one full-blown and one near-full-blown) linux kernels on the nand is a waste of NAND space if the main kernel would suffice. Writing even a _really_ simple (non-linux) kernel just to handle the charge circuit + power button + led would be some low-level work which has already been done, altough it might boot in less than 0.1s - and it would be quite hard to customize. ...

Umm... wut? :blink:
The very first kernel I installed on my beagleboard was 3k. Less than 4000 bytes. All it did was boot and make sure everything worked. Anything extra to run the charging circuit and check the power switch isn't going to add that much more. It might even be smaller. Why do you assume the mini-kernel needs to be related to linux in any way?

 

[BackAssward]

Don't forget, this is all a result of the financial melt down and the banks messing with OP. If that never happened, we'd have an almost perfect OS over a year ago and perfectly produced cases. Right? :unsure:

 

[Esn]

What is X?

I don't see it mentioned in the user manual...

 

[Consequence_9]

What is X?

I don't see it mentioned in the user manual...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System =]