What can Pandora do that Note 3 can't?

[Yoyobuae]

Seems each android device does things in different ways. :wacko:

EDIT: My phone even allows SD card to be unmounted so that it can be removed (nevermind that the SD card is behind battery ).

 

[Neelix]

Well, that would be different then how it was explained to me, and how it is on my tablet.

Is it just me or does merging internal storage and removable storage into one volume seem like insanity? Wouldn't that mean the internal storage gets corrupted if the SD card is ever removed?

It's only for the data partition where applications you've installed and music and videos you've downloaded go. The system partition remains untouched. Worst case, you pull the SD card and it boots up with just stock apps complaining that the data partition is corrupted.

Even if that's true wouldn't that kind of defeat the purpose of using removable storage in the first place? If I remove the SD card from a device I expect to be able to retrieve my data from it intact, not play Russian roulette with my files.

On my MTP-only Android handset I can launch the file browser and browse (the FAT partitioned) SD card just fine. It is not merged with internal storage at all, as far as I can tell. I can even pull out the SD card into a card reader and browse the contents from PC (ie. just like USB mass storage mode would allow).

What phone is this? Remind me to avoid this manufacturer for using a feature but not actually taking advantage of it for the benefits it gives.If the data storage is not merged into a single unit, and the SD card is in fact formatted FAT, then definitely agree that there is no reason to do away with USB mass storage, all you're left with are the drawbacks.

If you know of a phone manufacturer that *does* merge internal and removable storage in that way, please let me know who they are so I can avoid them. It sounds like a really good way to cripple a key feature.

I do see the advantage of not having to unmount the removable storage to share the contents (which is why I prefer sshfs via USB networking to mass storage mode on the Pandora) but I can see no good reason to merge internal and external storage like you describe, and would specifically not want any device I own to do this.

- Neelix

 

[Yoyobuae]

I think there's a bit of confusion going on. From http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/mg14z/whoa_whoa_ics_doesnt_support_usb_mass_storage:

First we designated a particular directory on internal storage as being the "SD card". Then we implemented a FUSE filesystem that does nothing except re-mount that directory as /sdcard, except discarding all permission checking. Except for permissions, the FUSE filesystem is a straight pass-through, so actual files get read from and written to the directory.

IOW we use a "fake" proxy FUSE filesystem to remount a specific directory to pretend to be an SD card. This is totally transparent to apps, they can't tell they aren't talking directly to a disk.

So even if your device has an /sdcard directory, that doesn't mean it's an actual removable SD card. It is this "fake" SD card/internal storage which is merged with the system partition. Since it's not removable it doesn't matter if it's merged or not.

But then that doesn't explain the removal of USB mass storage mode on devices with trully removable SD cards, which do have a separate partition (which can be unmounted even).

 

[comradekingu]

His response so far:

From what I gather as I did last time I argued with the creator.

>Gaming (If I can't play at least Half-Life 2, I'm not sold on it, android with an Xbox 360 controller, wabam for everything the Pandora has. Speaking of which, I was playing GTA: Vice City because it was ported to Android and it works great.

A x360 controller alone is much bigger than a pandora. Android is junk compared to linux|gnu. You may think your solution is preferable and equal, its however a take on what the pandora/pyra that ruins the whole idea. This guy may not like the idea, but those who do are not in any way compelled by android/360 controller solution to begin with.

>Mass Storage. I don't know about you but I don't use my phone for sitting back and watching a 2 hour movie or for that matter putting important files on a portable device. 


Because it sucks for that, what is the point? Not being able to have security because the default is to not have any on portable is contrary to the point hes trying to make.

>Updates: Never update unless you need to. If it isn't broken don't fix it, my phone was never broken.


Just, no. His phone is fundamentally broken for reasons above. Not updating makes that worse.  Ok its a phone, forget the smart part and stop comparing it to real systems if thats the point to be made.

>Code::Blocks on an ARM device. It's not Visual Studio, moving on. C++ is my favorite sorry.


If code:blocks were visual studio it wouldn't even be mentioned, why do you?  C++ is supported, try coding without a hardware keyboard.

>Raising the stakes. I bet I could make a slightly bigger NUC form factor 'laptop' that could make this device scream in terror and it would cost probably $100 less.

Challenge accepted. Lets see. Wonder how much of a stretch "slightly bigger" is.  The pandora and pyra makes great effort to be just within pocketability, omitting that is missing a point thats worthy to make.

TL;DR anything can be a toy, the pandora/pyra isn't.

 

[WizardStan]

I can see no good reason to merge internal and external storage like you describe

You've got 8GB on your phone, and an 8GB SD card. You've been downloading games and movies and MP3s and now your internal storage is full. Your SD card is still mostly empty because everything gets stored to the internal storage, or vice versa. You now have the task of reorganizing your stuff and redirecting downloads so you have room again, a task many users are, quite honestly, not capable of doing without a lot of careful guidance and cursing at the manufacturer.Or just treat the whole thing as one 16GB storage so that you don't have to worry about moving stuff and remembering whether that movie you wanted to watch on the bus was on internal or external storage, it's all just right there.

 

[Yoyobuae]

>Mass Storage. I don't know about you but I don't use my phone for sitting back and watching a 2 hour movie or for that matter putting important files on a portable device. 
Because it sucks for that, what is the point? Not being able to have security because the default is to not have any on portable is contrary to the point hes trying to make.

Well, Pandora has TV-Out and Pyra will have HDMI, so watching a 2 hour movie on ain't that far fetched (assuming a TV with proper input is available).

I can see no good reason to merge internal and external storage like you describe

You've got 8GB on your phone, and an 8GB SD card. You've been downloading games and movies and MP3s and now your internal storage is full. Your SD card is still mostly empty because everything gets stored to the internal storage, or vice versa. You now have the task of reorganizing your stuff and redirecting downloads so you have room again, a task many users are, quite honestly, not capable of doing without a lot of careful guidance and cursing at the manufacturer.
Or just treat the whole thing as one 16GB storage so that you don't have to worry about moving stuff and remembering whether that movie you wanted to watch on the bus was on internal or external storage, it's all just right there.

Media files are stored in SD card already (and apps make a mess of directories in it, but that's a different problem). The real issue is with installed apps, which are put into internal storage.

Well, the situation is far more complicated. Like I mentioned above some devices designate a directory on internal storage and treat it like an SD card. So now when Apps store things into the "SD card" they actually are storing things on internal storage, making things worst rather than improving it.

I tried searching but have not been able to find a device which does this internal+external storage merge. I did find that some devices have two kinds of internal storage (ie. system and eMMC) which get merged into a single internal storage.

Yeah, I don't really think things are as simple and straight forward as you say.

 

[WizardStan]

I tried searching but have not been able to find a device which does this internal+external storage merge.

The CM10 build for the HP Touchpad does this, although the "external storage" isn't accessible so it's moot anyway. Other than that my phone is 4 years old, I've not actually used a phone that does this, that's just the justification I was given for why MTP has become a thing now.

Yeah, I don't really think things are as simple and straight forward as you say.

I'm pretty sure it is this simple. Like I said before, these are the benefits that MTP is supposed to give, merging internal and external storage and allowing the SD card to be formatted non-FAT for improved efficiency and still accessible by a Windows machine. If neither of these things are being done then the manufacturer is intentionally making things more difficult for no benefit.

 

[Neelix]

Again, I would call merging of internal and removable storage to be a design flaw, not a feature.

Setting things up so that the device will automatically switch between storage devices for media storage as needed would be a good idea (as long as there is the ability to manually move files from one to the other as needed) but what you are describing sounds like sure-fire recipe for data loss and tears before bedtime.

In fact based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of MTP I think I'd be *more* likely to want to remove the SD card from an MTP only device to be able to directly interact with the filesystem than I would on a system that also offers a USB Mass Storage option.

- Neelix

 

[WizardStan]

Again, I would call merging of internal and removable storage to be a design flaw, not a feature

Yes, for you, and for me, and for pretty much everyone here.It's been pretty well established that those on this forum are generally not "typical" users.

 

[TrashyMG]

It's been pretty well established that those on this forum are generally not "typical" users.

I'm Abby Normal. 

 

[thatgui]

There's probably other solutions as well. MTP is far from the only choice, it was just their choice.

That maybe true, but there where just a bunch of good reasons why mtp is/was the "better" choice (in a more "non techy consumer" oriented way):- "atomic" file operations: only one logical file operation is allowed > great if the storage is shared, and no need to "unmount" or "remove" the device as there is no caching

- it "masks" the storage file system out: due to no block level access the operating system does not need to support the file system that is used on the other system

- MTP has its own USB device class: easier to implement generic driver support, and easier to leverage more "higher level" stuff, like that MTP devices don't show up as drives in windows, but devices, so its more obvious/logical for average joe that he is actually "interacting" with his media device

- maybe even MTPs generic support for DRM

Edit: small correction regarding drm

 

[Yoyobuae]

I tried searching but have not been able to find a device which does this internal+external storage merge.

The CM10 build for the HP Touchpad does this, although the "external storage" isn't accessible so it's moot anyway. Other than that my phone is 4 years old, I've not actually used a phone that does this, that's just the justification I was given for why MTP has become a thing now.

Yeah, I don't really think things are as simple and straight forward as you say.

I'm pretty sure it is this simple. Like I said before, these are the benefits that MTP is supposed to give, merging internal and external storage and allowing the SD card to be formatted non-FAT for improved efficiency and still accessible by a Windows machine. If neither of these things are being done then the manufacturer is intentionally making things more difficult for no benefit.

But without an example of any manufacturer doing this out of the box then those benefits are not really available to the user. The only cases I see are when the "external" storage is not meant to be removed. Which makes sense since removing part of the merged partition would have terrible consequences.

But then, why can't SD cards (which have separate partitions) still be accessed via USB mass storage? It is silly. This feels very much like a business decision than a technical trade off. Something that's pushed onto the users, like it or not, for no good reason. I hate that sort of thing.

- maybe even MTPs generic support for DRM

Edit: small correction regarding drm

Oh I see where this is going now... <_<

 

[myNewUsername]

edit: old news