We all know what it CAN do


I think you're still missing the point of what I've been saying, which is unfortunate.

Apparently to you all things are possible with the Pandora. Nobody can say anything different. Like I said, you can plug it into a desktop PC and use the desktop PC as an add-on peripheral. Haha.


Whereas to me, while you can do some of those things, you wouldn't want to. And realistically, nobody is going to do it. I'm looking beyond the possible to see what is realistic and practical.


Like you can plug in an accelerometer over USB port, like I mentioned. Great. Now what software can use that? Nothing. Then you're stuck writing your own Perl script to access it and use the data, because that's what you're left with. Not exactly a thrilling user experience that it could be. Build it in, and now you've got something.


- Steve
 
Apparently to you all things are possible with the Pandora. Nobody can say anything different. Like I said, you can plug it into a desktop PC and use the desktop PC as an add-on peripheral. Haha.
Ah, good, you didn't understand what I meant. I was worried that I had misunderstood you. Glad that isn't the case.

Like you can plug in an accelerometer over USB port, like I mentioned. Great. Now what software can use that? Nothing. Then you're stuck writing your own Perl script to access it and use the data, because that's what you're left with. Not exactly a thrilling user experience that it could be. Build it in, and now you've got something.
As I said, accelerometers get added to the dev tree as a single axis joystick, so anything that is joystick configurable can automatically use it.
 
35 seconds of which 10 seconds is what's needed to start the X Server.


The Pandora is not using upstart yet which should lower the boot time to about 20 seconds (into X)

Better than a minute. But still not very good. I want 10 seconds max. You'd be surprised how much more useful a device is if it only requires 10 seconds vs. one that requires 35 seconds or a minute to boot-up. And 10 seconds is still pretty long. I really want 2 seconds.

Yes, but they mention on that site that it's the Linux command line.

If you read down a little further, you'll see that it takes a little longer to bring up the graphical environment. So instead of 1.56 seconds, it says it needs about 2.4 seconds total. At least, if that's what I think it's saying. And again, that's a 200MHz ARM, inferior to the 600MHz ARM on the Pandora.

Of course you can hack it to make it way faster, but that would be with some stuff missing.

I think such a "hack" would actually be extremely popular. At least, you can give people choices. I suspect the Pandora still wouldn't be able to do the same as that device, because they mentioned having to have special ROMs to handle SD card stuff faster.

The two-second boot actually is something similar to hibernation.

Well, hibernation implies the thing is still powered, just in low power mode. What they describe is a fast boot-up from cold start. That's a lot more practical.

This makes it hard to customize the boot process AFTER that image has been created though.

Absolutely. And how often do you need to change the boot-up procedure? Probably not often. But make it easy for people. When they want to change something, they can boot-up normally and then update the "fast boot" image at that time. It could be push-button. I make it sound easy, but I'm sure it's harder to do in real life. Still, worth a try in my opinion.


- Steve
 
Steve, all of these things you want are BOM costs. Cellphone functionality doesn't come cheap. Without subsidization cellphones are expensive, and no one provider will subsidize a Pandora because it'd be an extremely niche phone. Its form factor makes it poor for that in general. And OP wouldn't even be able to get down to unsubsidized phone costs, because they wouldn't get the same volume deals nor be eligible at all to purchase the SoCs with builtin basebands like Snapdragon.


What you're describing boils down to a bunch of compromises. I agree that Pandora's hardware is behind the times and if you were building something now you could do better for less. But most of the features you want are some cost vs no cost. I already know you're going to say "I'm willing to pay", but your preferences in isolation are irrelevant if they don't represent the target market's. OP has to balance features based on what they think will sell given the demographic, and a lot of people aren't comfortable with Pandora's price as it is. That's the drawback to having gaming controls; a lot of people associate it with gaming handhelds that are cheaper.


Some items (like USB 3.0) aren't even really available in solutions that make a lot of sense. Others are probably not going to be available in low-volume to a startup product, like 3D displays. Any sort of hardware "x86 compatibility mode" in addition to a primary ARM processor is just nuts for a device like this. Forgoing ARM entirely is its own compromise both in power consumption and, believe it or not, software compatibility; yes, there are places where there are better ARM codes than x86.


You didn't respond to it, but I really did want to know what you were thinking by suggesting to supplement an ARM core with a VIA Nano or anything like it in a handheld.
 
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Most of the crap on a phone is there for "Market Flash". You can ask any supporting technical sales engineer anywhere.


Ask yourself this when you look at your little gadgets:


Do you really:


1. Need a mediocre camera, that gets used only once every two months?


2. Need 1 Gigahertz of processing power (like an iphone) that will be spent mostly on OS, and plays lesser time wasters?


3. Want a higher closed source device to force you to pay for the extra features that they advertise?


4. Need another cellphone?


5. Have Alot of life from your processor, 3g antenna, with little battery life?


6. Need everything to be from a particular name brand?


7. Need to spend 500+ on plans from companies who really want to exploit you?


8. Need to keep up with market fads?


9. Want to spend money on services that are really free? (Wi-fi, Gps, Compass?) (Now I think of it, why do you want a compass AND a GPS?)


10. Want a head ache from looking at your 3D omnicellphonesupergamingcomputerthingy?


11. Need keep update on everything social on the second?


12. Need to pay tax to companies for apps that are really free?


13. Want bandwidth caps?


14. Not want a Pandora? If yes, You are obviously Troll'n.


15. Wait on the industry to catch up?


16. Need to tilt your screen so you can see the glossy glare it has?


17. Not want to use the sole propose of a device?


18. Want to spend all the money the pandora will cost if it is upgraded to the 3Domnicellphonesupergamingcomputerthingy?


19. Design chips at all? To me you sound like an idiot from Marketing. :mellow:


With that said. The Pandora can do everything you want it to, within Hardware limits, and if someone is willing to write/port.


I would also like to throw in, that I'm still a happy Palm Tero user, thank you.
 
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Apparently to you all things are possible with the Pandora. Nobody can say anything different. Like I said, you can plug it into a desktop PC and use the desktop PC as an add-on peripheral. Haha.


Whereas to me, while you can do some of those things, you wouldn't want to. And realistically, nobody is going to do it. I'm looking beyond the possible to see what is realistic and practical.


Like you can plug in an accelerometer over USB port, like I mentioned. Great. Now what software can use that? Nothing. Then you're stuck writing your own Perl script to access it and use the data, because that's what you're left with. Not exactly a thrilling user experience that it could be. Build it in, and now you've got something.

I think we're getting to the heart of the question you posed so long ago - what could it be useful for the Pandora to do, and what would be a good idea to add to the Pandora's core so that everyone can use it? Those are two different questions, and only the second one's really worth answering.


The folks who are worried that people will miss the point that the Pandora is an open device and can do anything you can put your mind to will focus on the first. You're right, you can plug it into a desktop, if you'd like an "Alienware companion device" for your Pandora. Crazy, but technically possible. Probably good for a YouTube video and a laugh or two. Not something everyone would do or even be capable of doing.


The second question seems more along the lines of "What would we change were we redesigning stuff for the Pandora 2?" But it's still not that question. Primarily, this is defined by the device's role by it's target audience. In my case, if it had the capability to receive cell phone calls, I probably never would have bought it. Some of the items you mention might be quite useful in future iterations of the device, items worth making into core features. Some, it would be crazy to integrate. Again, we're back to the device's role. Of course, it's too late for me to debate the tradeoffs in production time, costs, device size, power consumption, etc., that each of those changes would bring, but given it's (very niche) purpose, I think the current feature set of the Pandora meets the requirements well.


It almost feels like you're asking what features would be useful to integrate to make the Pandora a more mainstream device. But then again, maybe I'm misreading you.
 
Sorry Stradian, hate to seem like I'm siding against your sentiment here but a lot of the stuff you're saying seems a little off.. (bear in mind this is coming from someone who doesn't own and has no reason to own a smartphone)


#1: The cameras on ie iPhone 4 are comparatively excellent and more than enough for regular use by typical people.


#2: Two things here. An OS doesn't take up a bunch of CPU time just by existing, especially not iOS optimized for handhelds by Apple. There's no reason why it would, but if it did it'd never get good battery life when you aren't using it strenuously. Secondly, what a high clock rate really means is that the CPU is on a good process and of a good design, and if it uses comparable amounts of power to older CPUs at lower clock rates it means it'll be able to draw less power at those same clock rates (and lower voltages). Of course, the CPU is also there when it's useful, like when running demanding programs like games and emulators.


#3: What advertised features do phones have that they make you pay extra for?


#4: No, I think the idea is that people make the latest and greatest their new cell phones. Since most of the cost is subsidized in the cell plan itself it's not a big deal, at least if you do it when your contract expires.


#5: So what are you saying, that 3G is useless? If you want to use the internet on the go - which obviously many do, as they're paying for data plans for it - then that's the only sensible way to do it. For battery life see my previous point.


#6: That's not really any good, but I don't see how using a name brand product means you bought it for its brand. Is it better to instead avoid something for being a name brand?


#7: What's the alternative? No plan at all?


#8: Just another spin on #6 here..


#9: People spend money on WiFi and magnetometers? What are you talking about? Now, I don't know anything about GPS services, but I'm sure it's not free top to bottom or no one would be paying for it. And magnetometers aren't used for global positioning like compasses have historically been, they're used for local motion reasoning. They're used in conjunction with gyroscopes and accelerometers to provide a needed additional degree of freedom.


#10: You should wait for actual reviews and user experiences on this first.


#11: Just another spin on #6 and #8 here...


#12: More of this too?


#13: What's the alternative?


#14: Why would you be trolling if you don't want one? I realize these are the official boards but people find their way on message boards for a variety of reasons and sometimes like to talk, genuinely, even if they're not in favor of what the majority are.


#15: Catch up with what? Things most people don't care about, as opposed to the things many do which Pandora is falling woefully behind on?


#16: Huh?


#17: Open Pandora themselves market the device as being very open ended. I didn't realize it had much in the way of a "sole purpose" nor did I realize people should be shunned for wanting to use it for anything else. Many are talking about hooking up all sorts of crap to their Pandora, are you against them doing this?


#18: Some would, some wouldn't. I have a feeling that those asking for it would, and those who don't want it probably wouldn't.


#19: Now who's trolling? SteveInAusin sounds like he knows what he's talking about way more than you do, I'm afraid :/


Personally, I want to know where you "MHz is bad" folks were in 2007 when Pandora was supposed to be the fastest mobile anything on the planet.
 
Ask yourself this when you look at your little gadgets:


Do you really:


1. Need a mediocre camera, that gets used only once every two months?


2. Need 1 Gigahertz of processing power (like an iphone) that will be spent mostly on OS, and plays lesser time wasters?


3. Want a higher closed source device to force you to pay for the extra features that they advertise?


4. Need another cellphone?


5. Have Alot of life from your processor, 3g antenna, with little battery life?


6. Need everything to be from a particular name brand?


7. Need to spend 500+ on plans from companies who really want to exploit you?


8. Need to keep up with market fads?


9. Want to spend money on services that are really free? (Wi-fi, Gps, Compass?) (Now I think of it, why do you want a compass AND a GPS?)


10. Want a head ache from looking at your 3D omnicellphonesupergamingcomputerthingy?


11. Need keep update on everything social on the second?


12. Need to pay tax to companies for apps that are really free?


13. Want bandwidth caps?


14. Not want a Pandora? If yes, You are obviously Troll'n.


15. Wait on the industry to catch up?


16. Need to tilt your screen so you can see the glossy glare it has?


17. Not want to use the sole propose of a device?


18. Want to spend all the money the pandora will cost if it is upgraded to the 3Domnicellphonesupergamingcomputerthingy?


19. Design chips at all? To me you sound like an idiot from Marketing. :mellow:


With that said. The Pandora can do everything you want it to, within Hardware limits, and if someone is willing to write/port.


I would also like to throw in, that I'm still a happy Palm Tero user, thank you.
bored... did your little survey


1)I've never actually used a digital camera other than for testing, I'm not a picture person


2)yes, I like eye candy, and gesture based navigation, you can keep using command lines and elaborate menu trees


3)there's plenty of other options for mobile os's out there besides ios and winmo


4)if you have sim cards, does it matter? I know lots of people who own multiple computers?


5)if my mobile device can last from the time I leave the house till I get home regardless of my usage, any time past that point doesn't matter to me


6)if I like a manufacturer because they make good hardware, I think it make sense to do business with them again


7)tell that to my cable company -_-


8)people usually like things because they're good


9)unless you are talking about a particular device I don't even.... and how does your gps know which way you're facing when looking at a map? My phone does ;)


10)3D is extremely gimicky, even when done spectacularly, it's not that great. Head mounted display (best of immersion and 3d aren't even that great if you ask me)


11)it's nice to be able to find out what all my friends are doing at a glance at any moment of the day. I can see if you have like 2 friends I can see where you might not need things like facebook/twitter


12)that's completely on the person that's reselling an open piece of software, if people didn't pay for it, I don't think they'd be selling it. Money is a good motivator to continue develop for a platform.


13)get a carrier that doesn't have data caps (sprint in usa openly announced the removal of the 5gb cap for 10usd/mo) my cable company still says I can only use 500gb and I pay more for it than my 3g


14)i've wanted a pandora.... for freaking ever... but there's alot of stuff I would have changed from the get go.


15)been waiting for years for the industry to catch up, and still nothing, I think that's the reason a lot of us are still here.


16)beats the glossy haze of resistive touch screens (IMHO)


17)phones are communication devices... i communicate with mine all day every day... I just don't limit my self to talking communication


18)given the option, I would have paid the extra $100-200 for a 3g version of the pandora over a wifi only version that doesn't include that hardware


19)I think you were aiming this at someone in particular o_O


The pandora is very very far from being perfect, it really is, it has awesome potential as a gaming/emulation device that can be used for other stuff. But the main thing it has failed to show me is that it does anything *better* than anything else I own for doing anything else it does. I won't be doing alot of the desktop stuff on it, because it's just looks too unconformable, I have a 4" screen device... it's not pleasant to do heavy browsing sessions in, let along anyting else even remotely close to that. I've had 7" screens, while better than 4" screens, they aren't that fun to look at for reading things for long periods of time either. 10+" tablets and netbooks are decent for real mobile browsing, but aren't better than laptops/desktops.


The one thing it does better than any other mobile device is emulation... it should really really lean on that feature hard, everything else I see as gimmicky too me to be honest. You might see it as utility and functionality, but I see it about the same way you see all those extra functions on the iphone probally.
 
:mellow: I guess I was terrible at communicating my point.


My point is that being the latest and greatest is unrealistic. For a project like the pandora, Cramming it with features it doesn't need, is even more unrealistic. I can say the Pandora is first and foremost primarily a console geared toward emulation. Secondly, a UMPC.


The other point I'm attempting to communicate is that these common features (cellphone, gps, etc.) get redundant. Also, when you shove components together, you are going to sacrifice something in return, usually component quality or higher cost.


I know I made my rants out of context. With some of my points being exaggerations.


<_< Terrible at English too...


I'll explain my points in context if you are interested:


1. I really think a camera is a redundant feature, not that it matters.


2. I was making a point to SteveInAustin that clock frequency didn't really matter. I also noted that the Iphone, not being a dedicated gaming device, doesn't have a library of "hardcore" games. I also tried to convey that iOS has a larger overhead.


3. This is a little of the past I remember when smart phones starting to take hold. At and t was bad (or in a marketing sense, good) at advertising features that you had to pay extra for. GPS (well not true GPS, It got your postition relative to the towers.) was one of them. This did convince me it was actual gps and I didn't need to throw anymore money at it.


4. Again, making the point of redundancy. The core use of the cellphone has not really change, I see no point getting another as long as it still functions.


5. This one was completely out of context. (I wasn't thinking.) I remember using my trusty laptop with a 3g broadband card. Boy the power it drawed.


6. This one comes a little out of my hatred of most manufactures. Now I look at it, it really doesn't fit.


7. This one comes from the overcharged services we all have to pay. This statement had to do with the idea of the Pandora being a cellphone. More expensive.


8. I feel buyers are being enticed by things they really can't understand. Rarely I find someone who really knows the difference between Random access memory and a storage medium.


9. Being charged for services, that is sometimes redundant, is unnecessary and costly. I remember T-Mobile charging people for using any wifi.


10. 3d, I feel, is a fad. All it really does is add depth. And the illusion sometimes leaves me with a terrible headache.


11. Another fad, This time in context to more of the women I know. Needing the latest device to satisfy their social lives on facebook.


12. This is in context to apple. And ultimately made up my mind about the iProducts. Paying money for an app, which in turn also pays apple is never okay.


13. This is a reference to some service providers, Who ether: Give you a flat rate (sometimes high), Cap (sometimes deceivingly over expensive when you go over) Or Charge by the Gigabyte, capping in my experience was never a no go.


14. It feels to me that someone is posting about features that are Feasible, provided money is not a factor. ED talked about the limits of space and cost of the pandora.


15. I thrown this out there to make a point as well. Very little technology industry today will not take risks in more powerful products. Not Until apple threw out the iphone. Now everyone is trying to go a little over par of the iphone.


The reason for this is that customers were "happy" with what they had. When the iPhone came out, everyone "wasn't happy" and wanted to switch. Generating market that everyone had to eventually catch. That market is slowing again. (This is one of the harder ones to communicate.) :unsure:


16. This was in context to both the accelerometers and glossy screens in the sun. Although they may look nice, They are unsuitable for use with an accelerometer due to glare.


17. Again with redundancy. Its like giving a person multiple responsibilities. Be the guy who has one shop: He must wake up early, stock shelves, sail, hunt, rescue an airplane, deliver goods, and go to bed on time; He can do all of them, but only a few he can do well, others not so well.


18. This was a point in saying that a pandora would unaffordable to most if it was as awesome as the 3Domnicellphonesupergamingcomputerthingy™. If the price was any higher, the project would be dead.


19. First, I will apologize, That was unnecessary. Second, If you design chips, you would have understand the concept of meeting an objective for a product that some would really want and be affordable to them (and for the company to get a decent profit). If the Pandora's mission was to revolutionize toast, would it be necessarily need to be also able to handle eggs? As far as I see it, making a comparision to the Pandora to a cellphone is like comparing my Desktop to my house phone.


I hope my English makes sense here. :(


By the way this thread reminded me of this:


23655.strip.sunday.gif
 
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(Now I think of it, why do you want a compass AND a GPS?)
GPS tells you where you are on the planet, and any directional data is calculated based on your previous location within a defined time period (or that's the way I understand it, seeing it working on my GPS-enabled phone). The addition of a compass allows the device to know the direction the phone is pointing, thus being able to orient maps in the direction of travel. Honestly, I'm jealous of people with compasses in their phones and wish I didn't have to angle my phone so the map is pointing in the right direction... :p


SteveInAustin:


I've been reading this thread with enthusiasm since you've arrived, mainly because the dialogue between you and WizardStan is interesting. I get what you're trying to say, but what I feel like WizardStan is trying to get across to you is that the Pandora can do a lot of what you've been saying most people won't want to do in a thread asking what it definitely can't.


The way the thing is built, a lot of people who have bought one are no doubt tinkerers and hackers, or people who saw and liked what's advertised as what it can do, and left their money with OP. I'm between the two crowds. I love to tinker and hack, but I'm not good at it. I also like things to be a certain way, and the Pandora does most of it right (if what's advertised is to be believed). However, there are people out there that have done with the device things I had never even thought of, which kind of makes your point about people not wanting to do it moot. If it's even remotely possible the Pandora can do it, I've no doubt someone's gonna try and make it happen.


An example: early-on it was brought to my understanding that it can't run Windows (even though I was asking if it could run Windows Mobile, an entirely different beast). Months later someone shows their unit running Windows 95. It's not running the smoothest, but it was there, in all its glory. I cried a tear when I heard the start up chime. :p OP said it couldn't, and yet someone did.


I like the topic of this thread... it's actually more difficult to think of what it can't do than what it can (even if it would require a lot of work to make it happen). :lol:
 
holy crap people, thats a lot of writing, especially for this steve guy complaining about slow boot, if you think 2sec bootup is possible, make it happen please, this is open source project, you dont have to beg and complain to opt about it
 
The Pandora can't do web browsing as well as I'd hoped. Even overclocked, javascript heavy websites choke the thing... also, the screen resolution has never felt large enough, despite always believing it would be (when you bear in mind we're running desktop browsers and not zoom-stuff like the Iphone).


I've just never found it fun on the Pandora. Too sluggish and cumbersome for me.
 
The Pandora can't do web browsing as well as I'd hoped. Even overclocked, javascript heavy websites choke the thing... also, the screen resolution has never felt large enough, despite always believing it would be (when you bear in mind we're running desktop browsers and not zoom-stuff like the Iphone).


I've just never found it fun on the Pandora. Too sluggish and cumbersome for me.

what are you using as a browser?
 
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