Trying to find a fair solution

[MrConfusion]

That way, people who are directly involved can be heard?

So far, 12 queuers and 2 "status unknown" have voted. Whereas 33 non-queuers have voted.

Like I already wrote in some thread somewhere, maybe this one, maybe not:

This is really about whether the solution is fair between the queuer and ED.

And I don't see why non-queuers could not express their opinion about that too, given many of them donate monthly to serve the EverQueue.

Let's face it: If something like this was done by a bigger company (i.e. five year delay in delivery), it would be mass action time.

Or if they'd try to settle it with you you'd only consider a deal fair if the company gave you the upgraded unit and a lifelong supply of coupons to the nearest McDonalds.

Point being: if this were Nintendo, you, the customer would be the kitty in post 83...

But this is not Nintendo.

 

[pmprog]

And I don't see why non-queuers could not express their opinion about that too, given many of them donate monthly to serve the EverQueue.

It's a fair comment, but as you said, it's really between the queuer and ED. I imagine most donators would probably still donate regardless of the agreement between queuers and ED, and if they don't like the proposal, they'd probably stop donating.
I can see both sides of the coin.

 

[xcen]

holy shit seriously guys? This is going to turn into another "who's responsible" thread? I TL;DR'd, but who gives a f*ck whose money did what and who made what mistake?! Is allocating blame/success going to get us anywhere near our goal (if it needs to be reminded, the goal is to get Pandora units in the hands of people) The answer is no.

I'm sick and tired of those arguments leading absolutely nowhere. You wanna do something about "whose fault it is"? Then go after something that can be gone after. Even if we sued Craig, Open Pandora LIMITED would go bankrupt, no money, no nothing, and Craig himself wouldn't even be affected (this is assuming UK's LTD is the same as Canada's).

You guys wanna do something? Find a lawyer who can sue CC over the loss of all that money (a lawyer we can afford AKA pro bono) and then we can get some money back.

In the meantime, all of this is utterly irrelevant and we should concentrate on finding a way to get things DONE.

So far the only person I *ever* see doing this is ED... everyone else is pointing at people, starting flame wars, speculating ludicrously over imaginary numbers, pretending they know everything when they have no fucking clue, etc...

You have a great, positive, doable idea? speak up!

You have nothing to add to the conversation? kindly stfu.

m2c, as they say

 

[fusion_power]

You guys wanna do something? Find a lawyer who can sue CC over the loss of all that money (a lawyer we can afford AKA pro bono) and then we can get some money back.

True word. 

These CC and the chinese case company still make tons of money and never were punished for the mess they've caused. Inacceptable imho. These endless delays are the main reason and trigger for most of the issues the Pandora had but so far only Craig and ED are punished hard (and of course also the community) but the companies there can live happyly ever after? No, this is not how the story should end. They owe the Pandora team alot of money and it's about time to get the money back from them, every single cent. 

 

[rohezal]

You want to do an international lawsuit against a company in china? I don't think this is a good idea. Let's try to spread the word about the Pandora. And find ideas to improve marketing.

 

[WizardStan]

You want to do an international lawsuit against a company in china? I don't think this is a good idea.

It's not a good idea because the Chinese companies are all doing their jobs well now, there's no need to rock that boat, and it's not like they caused that big of an issue, certainly nothing that couldn't have been avoided with some additional interaction.CC is the only company that might be liable for anything, and every passing year makes it less likely that anyone is actually going to bring them to account. But you are absolutely correct that we need to move forward. Nothing will come from keeping on about who did what. The only thing that needs to be decided is what ED's already asked: is this fair? Or as fair as it can be given the situation.

It's a delicate balance: on the one hand the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", but then again "gotta look out for number 1". It isn't fair to ask ED to just sacrifice all of his profits, current and future (because without the pre-order debacle he would probably be well on his way to funding a successor which would no doubt make more money), but then it isn't really fair to the remaining pre-orders to just be tossed aside. ED may not literally owe them anything, but it is also true that none of this would have happened if not for them (us, including all pre-orders, including those that received and upgraded already).

I'm going to think on this more.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

holy shit seriously guys? This is going to turn into another "who's responsible" thread? I TL;DR'd, but who gives a f*ck whose money did what and who made what mistake?! Is allocating blame/success going to get us anywhere near our goal (if it needs to be reminded, the goal is to get Pandora units in the hands of people) The answer is no.

I'm sick and tired of those arguments leading absolutely nowhere. You wanna do something about "whose fault it is"? Then go after something that can be gone after. Even if we sued Craig, Open Pandora LIMITED would go bankrupt, no money, no nothing, and Craig himself wouldn't even be affected (this is assuming UK's LTD is the same as Canada's).

You guys wanna do something? Find a lawyer who can sue CC over the loss of all that money (a lawyer we can afford AKA pro bono) and then we can get some money back.

In the meantime, all of this is utterly irrelevant and we should concentrate on finding a way to get things DONE.

So far the only person I *ever* see doing this is ED... everyone else is pointing at people, starting flame wars, speculating ludicrously over imaginary numbers, pretending they know everything when they have no fucking clue, etc...

You have a great, positive, doable idea? speak up!

You have nothing to add to the conversation? kindly stfu.

m2c, as they say

^I agree with this. There really is nothing more to think about here.

I can only say in a perfect world it would be easier if ED could just deal with his customers exclusively and forget Craig's. But I realize this will never happen and I understand why.

 

[Grench]

You want to do an international lawsuit against a company in china? I don't think this is a good idea.

It's not a good idea because the Chinese companies are all doing their jobs well now, there's no need to rock that boat, and it's not like they caused that big of an issue, certainly nothing that couldn't have been avoided with some additional interaction.
CC is the only company that might be liable for anything, and every passing year makes it less likely that anyone is actually going to bring them to account. But you are absolutely correct that we need to move forward. Nothing will come from keeping on about who did what. The only thing that needs to be decided is what ED's already asked: is this fair? Or as fair as it can be given the situation.


It's a delicate balance: on the one hand the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", but then again "gotta look out for number 1". It isn't fair to ask ED to just sacrifice all of his profits, current and future (because without the pre-order debacle he would probably be well on his way to funding a successor which would no doubt make more money), but then it isn't really fair to the remaining pre-orders to just be tossed aside. ED may not literally owe them anything, but it is also true that none of this would have happened if not for them (us, including all pre-orders, including those that received and upgraded already).


I'm going to think on this more.

There isn't a lot left to think about really.

There are simply too many pre-orders left in Craig's queue to be serviced by ED and the donors.

That makes it triage time.  Triage is a medical rationing term - the basic idea is to sort cases into the follow 3 groups:

• Those who are likely to live, regardless of what care they receive;
• Those who are likely to die, regardless of what care they receive;
• Those for whom immediate care might make a positive difference in outcome.

In our case:

• Those who are likely and able to upgrade to ED's queue on their own.  Category I.
• Those who are likely to never chip in money for their own upgrade to ED's queue.  Category II.
• Those who could make it with a little to some help from the donors.  Category III.

We need to stop having donations supply full units.  Donations should be reserved for those who are willing to pay >=80% of their own upgrade price into ED's queue - then the donations make the difference.  Those in Category III.

This has the effect that donations for '10 units' effectively pushes 50 units 'over the hump' to a cross-queue upgrade instead of paying for 10 units outright.  Otherwise the donations buying full units won't even make a dent in the queue.

Frankly, anyone who is still in Craig's queue  (Category II) who isn't willing to chip in some money to get their Pandora - they're effectively out already.  It's harsh, but if the donor money is spread more thinly, then there is a better chance of clearing more people from the queue.

I imagine that for many people, if there is still a remote chance that they'll get a Pandora without having to kick in money themselves (donation queue), they will sit on their hands/wallets and do nothing.  Kind of like playing the lottery - everyone thinks they might win even though the chances are remote.  If the donation pool is flipped to providing discounts instead of whole units - then it would remove the financial enticement to this behavior.

How to ration 'donation discounted upgrades'?  Have ED put them in his store as donations come in.  Instead of sending out 10 Pandoras to Craig's queue at no additional costs, put 50 'donation discounted cross queue upgrade' packages in the store.

In My Humble Opinion Only.

Your Mileage May Vary.

Plastic Bag.  Not a toy.

Desiccant.  Do not eat.

 

[ekianjo]

We need to stop having donations supply full units.  Donations should be reserved for those who are willing to pay >=80% of their own upgrade price into ED's queue - then the donations make the difference.  Those in Category III.

100% agree here.  

 

[levi]

Isn't that what's already happening, as the donations are only being used to pay the difference for those who've responded to the survey with the highest amounts?

 

[ekianjo]

Isn't that what's already happening, as the donations are only being used to pay the difference for those who've responded to the survey with the highest amounts?

Not sure. Maybe we need ED to confirm.

 

[Timstertoo]

Isn't that what's already happening, as the donations are only being used to pay the difference for those who've responded to the survey with the highest amounts?

As long as there are people willing to pay a bit extra this is true. Once only the people who can't/ will are left they would be serviced again. Certainly from donations. I can imagine ED and the investors having a point in mind where it stops making sense giving away all the profits.

 

[ShleeDragon]

The major thing to take away is.. the queue needs to be taken away from ED and given back to Craig - one way or another.

I just noticed something that people seem to be ignoring... Once ED offers the newer solution to the preorders, It'll cover some of them and get the queue "absolved" but the queue could still be serviced over time by the donations from the community and hopefully by Craig himself.

ED will offer them an excellent option and will hopefully they'll be happy and he can move on with the business side of things.. Lowering prices and working on production and marketing but I doubt the community will ever completely forget about the preorder queue..

The torch is just being taken away from ED.

 

[ShleeDragon]

If there are 250 preorders left... Every $1000 donations drops the price of the Pandora $4 for them.... Pretty easy sell

 

[darkborn]

Every Craig needs some ED to get money from people. ICP2 just proves it. Bad cop / good cop, call it as you wish. When ED started to "take control", I stopped thinking about refunding from Craig.

Beside, it was many times that Craig sc*ew ED... oops... "telling him things that do not stand exactly as he said". F*k that. It was a spiral of lies, and our good wishes for project did not help to stop the lies, just the opposite. We (and ED!) encouraged Craig to scr*w more and more people.

What is worrying me now is that most of you stil feel empathy for Craig, but as ED said before: Craig is a very smart guy and there is no evidence that he really raise mortgage or that he is in any financial mess. Pandora LTD is, but it is cheap sacrifiice for perfect plan. Too many lies that we could now for sure what is true. Beside that he is a big liar.

There is only one thing that we can be sure about Craig, and that is he is the greatest fan of Hustle.

http://youtu.be/Q328doAuZcI

There is no cosmic justice. You have to take responsibility by yourself. So, please remember projects like Pandora in the future, because it is your responsibility to not help somebody sc*ew other people just because you're naive.

Oh, btw back on topic: it is not about 300€ or not, it is all about that we are paying for this bad guys behaviour and nasty habits to lie to the people and rob take money from them. Yes, I know, it is not fraud/scam, and there are no bad intentions at start... and Craig is the largest looser in this story... trolololo... story that I do not buy.

Luckily, Craig is slave of his vanity, so he will never go to plastic surgery. It means that somebody of tenths of thousands of people that he scr*w around will face him, sooner or later. Just for a nice chat.

The greatest thing that could be done is to solve - close preorders story. One way or another. By upgrading, or by giving the rest of folk vouchers for P2 (WITHOUT any guarantee that it will happen ever), whatever. Just find the way to close it in known period, not two-months-or-so.

ED, give us strict deadline to choose. (You can prolong it anytime for our good if you want). Stop the agony, you do not have any obligations after so much time/effort/spent money.

I paid 327,02GBP or 382€ or 505,95$ at March, 13th 2009. 4,5 years ago. Birthday present for my then 13 old son. I do not like that people are usualy talking about 250-300€ we paid. Sum is bigger.

Beside, I bought this year 4,5" 1184x720 waterproof smartphone, iPega BT gamepad controller, 7" 800x480 tablet and keyboard cover case -

- all for 149GBP / 174€ / 230$. It was much lesser then I paid or should pay for Pandora. And serve me well: +2 full equiped devices, so I can play games with my son. So check it yourself.

I will give you donation but I do not need another proof of my stupidity.

 

[ekianjo]

Well said Darkborn.

 

[rohezal]

It is not about "justice" it is about giving as much as possible people in the preorder queue a Pandora. The 300€ / 100€ Pandoras sounds good. People who can't afford that, can maybe use the "pay 200€ and get the rest from donations and profits" option. Maybe add a "pay 50€ get a classic pandora from donations and profits" option.

Maybe write an email an explain 5 options:
 

Get a "300€ for a instant Ghz Pandora" voucher. Get an additional "350€ for a Ghz Pandora voucher" you can sell.

Get a "200€ for a Ghz Pandora" voucher which includes long waiting.

Get a "100€ for a instant Classic Pandora" voucher. Get an additional "350€ for a Ghz Pandora voucher" you can sell.

Get a "50€ for a Classic Pandora" voucher which includes long waiting.

Get a Rebirth Pandora for free. Takes up to 4 years to deliver or will maybe never be delivered.

If you are honest and tell the people this 5 options (and the background story AND THAT THE PANDORAS ARE ON STOCK, include a photo of alot Pandoras at your shop in this mail), I think a lot will choose to pay 50€ to get at least something (they can sell it for 200€ or more, so it is ok).

 

[PokeParadox]

I think these are all good ideas - and yes if that clears out more people that are waiting, the better.

Of course this needs people willing to take up these options to be affective.

I believe that was the original intention of setting up the second donation goal - but the setting goal simply diluted the money donated between 2 pots... and only the "10 more pandoras" option got funded.

Maybe having the goals is unecessary and we just need a "Money to help ordeorders" pot that just shows total amount rasied against things achieved with the money.

"Sent 20 1GHz preorders with a donation subsidy of $5"

or somethign like that.

 

[rohezal]

The second donation pot was my idea (at least I believe this ). I think not a lot people donated to it, so it was merged. Maybe add to the 50€ and 200€ voucher the "350€ voucher for a Ghz voucher". This way the 50€ people can sell it for sure, and take the classic pandoras for virtually free. Cleaning the queue quite fast. The question  is: how many classic pandoras are left? 100, 200?

 

[HelenF]

I think 200 EUR would be a good balanced price for the donation-supported queue, at least until no-one left is willing to pay that. (And I imagine a lot more people would be willing to pay that than the survey suggested, considering how the options seemed at the time.)

But it should really only be from the donations. ED has already donated a lot more than anyone else, so it's not fair to ask for more of the profits.