Transfers... Tranzfers..

[Zeno Arrow]

I didnt read through all the thread, but what happens to those who can only use a credit card? No idea yet?

I can't see why anyone would be forced to use a credit card, though for some it may offer benefits (esp. if bank transfers are not easily/cheaply performed). In other words, there are always options, even if current opinion seems to suggest you must wish to stay on one side of the payment dichotomy.

Having just read through the whole thread, I think I have one possible solution to this problem (though if the deposit idea mentioned by a couple of people in this thread can work I'd like to see how popular that was too). How about those who want to re-order by credit card do so through ED's bank and not craigix's? Seems to me that banks in the UK are going a bit doolally, whilst ED's bank in Germany has (to my knowledge) not caused any problems with CC payments. As long as the money gets to the OpenPandora team it's all good, right?

 

[Eniko]

That link doesnt show a shop? just part of this discussion from earlier so not sure what you mean?

I was assuming the iDEAL system in and of itself would be sufficient. But here is the site. Even though it doesn't list participants (a huge one is the dutch amazon bol.com) it says it processed more than 25 million payments in 2008 alone. Considering there's only 16 million people in the country, I think that's a lot.

 

[White Demon]

I just want to +1 to the people who are saying no to the 'CD now, free Pandora later' option. This is not what I paid using CC for. Even if the banks didn't see this as fraud (unlikely), as soon as a CD is sent out then the deal is done. If I never get a 'free' Pandora, there is nothing I can do as the part of the deal I paid for has been met, so in the end I lose $450 anyway.

If this CD idea were to go ahead, I wouldn't even think twice before contacting my bank and initiating a chargeback.

How about this. Extending on that idea, why not send us whatever components are ready to us, and we assemble it altogether (following a manual or guide) bit by bit until we have everything we need to make our complete Pandora's? It would save some manual work on your end I think, and those that are really impatient can get whatever bits and bobs that are available now alleviating the 30-day credit card order limit problem.

Of course not everyone would be willing to assemble their own, but if there is a choice it could help

You can have your P in bits, but I'd rather have mine fully assembled by a professioinal company/team myself. I'll wait for a fully assembled unit.

If possible why not say they're selling A numbered card that states they're participation in the project, this way you can offer something official to the the first edition users and it shows the banks that you are offering people something for their money within the aloted time. Later those people with the first edition cards can expect the reward for their faith in the project in the form of a "free" Pandora.

Same as the CD option. If the banks don't see it as fraud in the first place, we still run the risk of losing our money if the 'free' thing can't be met (it's only a free extra, what's the problem with not receiving it?)

To many of us (europeans) this is the most normal thing in the world, and that means it may seem that way from your cultural perspective but that doesn't actually make it a general truth.

I'm probably arguing with a wall here but I patently dislike it being insinuated that I and others like me are "insane" for paying by bank transfer when it's the most normal thing in the world where I live to pay for virtually anything by banktransfer.

That's where you live. Pretty much everywhere else in the world this is NOT how things are done normally. The only time I will use a bank transfer is if I'm buying something from within the country, if it's already available and a small amount of money (mostly from ebay Australia in the past). When I order from something overseas, if CC is not an option I will think very long and very hard about what I'm buying. And international bank transfers are not cheap as some have mentioned.

As a side note in Switzerland a lot of online shop accept both credit card and bank transfer. Some of them do charge extra for credit card, so if you're buying an expensive item you're better of not paying by credit card from a price point of view. Then some shop send you the item with a bill (no kidding !! well that's normally possible only up to a certain amount tough) or COD (which is more expensive).

Generally speaking I think it's fair that if you order by bank transfer you pay less than by CC because CC just have more cost that the shop has to support.
That is of course not in the interest of credit card company and they have always wanted not to allow the shop to charge more for purchase made with a credit card. I don't know the exact detail but I think it was at some point considered against antitrust law and shop are now able to actually charge more for CC order in Switzerland.

I've never know a single shop in Australia that will send you goods BEFORE you pay for something. The only difference is services like electricity, gas and water.

And as for extra charges for paying by CC, the laws differ from country to country. In Australia it is against the law for retailers to pass the % they get charged on CC orders on to the customer. No idea what it is in UK though, and how that affects international orders or not.

 

[truekaiser]

first off, once you took the first pre-orders you entered a informal contract with the pre-order's that you WILL deliver the stated product.

second, if your going to insist that we pay through a method that is NOT available to a portion of your customers that you said you will take orders from. well, needless to say i would have to take the appropriate action.

edit: anyone know where in the uk this 'company' is located?

 

[j.pickens]

first off, once you took the first pre-orders you entered a informal contract with the pre-order's that you WILL deliver the stated product.

second, if your going to insist that we pay through a method that is NOT available to a portion of your customers that you said you will take orders from. well, needless to say i would have to take the appropriate action.

edit: anyone know where in the uk this 'company' is located?

What action?
The "I can't buy a Pandora with my credit card, jump up and down and stomp my feet" action?
There is nothing legally actionable about your not being able to participate in the purchase of a product because of payment limitations.

The only legally actionable thing in all this mess so far is, possibly, the Amex orders which were not refunded.
In all other cases, people were refunded, and many people subsequently paid by bank transfer, google checkout, and the rest did not make any additional payment.

 

[gruso]

^ Exactly. In addition, some people have pulled out by requesting chargebacks or cancelling transfers. Successfully I might add.

It's a bit of a mess but no one is getting (or has been) screwed by OpenPandora.

 

[truekaiser]

first off, once you took the first pre-orders you entered a informal contract with the pre-order's that you WILL deliver the stated product.

second, if your going to insist that we pay through a method that is NOT available to a portion of your customers that you said you will take orders from. well, needless to say i would have to take the appropriate action.

edit: anyone know where in the uk this 'company' is located?

What action?
The "I can't buy a Pandora with my credit card, jump up and down and stomp my feet" action?
There is nothing legally actionable about your not being able to participate in the purchase of a product because of payment limitations.

The only legally actionable thing in all this mess so far is, possibly, the Amex orders which were not refunded.
In all other cases, people were refunded, and many people subsequently paid by bank transfer, google checkout, and the rest did not make any additional payment.

alerting the uk government consumer protection system. they entered a contract when they first accepted pre-orders. if they refuse to honor it by insisting we pay with a system that look fraudulent, won't accept sending money from the united states but will allow it to be sent to it.

 

[MDave]

first off, once you took the first pre-orders you entered a informal contract with the pre-order's that you WILL deliver the stated product.

second, if your going to insist that we pay through a method that is NOT available to a portion of your customers that you said you will take orders from. well, needless to say i would have to take the appropriate action.

edit: anyone know where in the uk this 'company' is located?

What action?
The "I can't buy a Pandora with my credit card, jump up and down and stomp my feet" action?
There is nothing legally actionable about your not being able to participate in the purchase of a product because of payment limitations.

The only legally actionable thing in all this mess so far is, possibly, the Amex orders which were not refunded.
In all other cases, people were refunded, and many people subsequently paid by bank transfer, google checkout, and the rest did not make any additional payment.

alerting the uk government consumer protection system. they entered a contract when they first accepted pre-orders. if they refuse to honor it by insisting we pay with a system that look fraudulent, won't accept sending money from the united states but will allow it to be sent to it.


Where is this contract?

 

[Alpha2]

Craig, Who do I make the personal check out to, because at this point that seems like the only way anyone can send you any money.

Hardly anyone here thinks you;re trying to scam anyone, it's the banks and these ridiculous rules that are screwing us. no one can send a direct payment of that much money through pay pal unless they have a premium account and even then there's still fees and accout freezing going on. Bank transfers seem like the simplest way for people over seas but for anyone on this side of the ocean it just means more fees on top of the money we spent on the first transaction (every transaction costs more money so even if we're just sending back the money you refunded us it's still going to cost even more through a bank transfer) on top of that hardly anyone seems familiar with what goes on in a bank transfer and if something went wrong with that process we'd be completely clueless as to what's going on, and if people are this lost now then the number of complaints after bank transfers fall apart would shatter the internet.

So again? Who do I make the check out to?

 

[gruso]

alerting the uk government consumer protection system. they entered a contract when they first accepted pre-orders. if they refuse to honor it by insisting we pay with a system that look fraudulent, won't accept sending money from the united states but will allow it to be sent to it.

:lol: A system that looks fraudulent? You mean bank transfers, right? If you want the courts to deem fraudulent a system of money transfer that existed for a century or so before credit cards were invented, you'd better start assembling your legal team now.

 

[truekaiser]

first off, once you took the first pre-orders you entered a informal contract with the pre-order's that you WILL deliver the stated product.

second, if your going to insist that we pay through a method that is NOT available to a portion of your customers that you said you will take orders from. well, needless to say i would have to take the appropriate action.

edit: anyone know where in the uk this 'company' is located?

What action?
The "I can't buy a Pandora with my credit card, jump up and down and stomp my feet" action?
There is nothing legally actionable about your not being able to participate in the purchase of a product because of payment limitations.

The only legally actionable thing in all this mess so far is, possibly, the Amex orders which were not refunded.
In all other cases, people were refunded, and many people subsequently paid by bank transfer, google checkout, and the rest did not make any additional payment.

alerting the uk government consumer protection system. they entered a contract when they first accepted pre-orders. if they refuse to honor it by insisting we pay with a system that look fraudulent, won't accept sending money from the united states but will allow it to be sent to it.


Where is this contract?

have you been reading the site and understand basic consumer rights? when you pay for a product the sell must provide it, if the seller pulls stuff and delays and delays and won't tell why you have a legal right to get the authority's involved.

when you pre-ordered you payed for a product, the money might of been refunded but by saying it won't effect your pre-order status is the same as saying the contract still stands. you may still have the money but they still promise to deliver and you promise to give back the money you are temporarly holding.

 

[restless1]

This is turning into a merry go round I suggest we close this till calmer minds intervene the truth is something will have to be worked out but threats and accuzations are not helping anyone...
I will wait till I hear some solutions after a bit more time when they as a business can consult and reconvene ...

 

[darkblu]

I didnt read through all the thread, but what happens to those who can only use a credit card? No idea yet?

you'll have to wait till a moment when credit cards will be an option again. as simple as that.


to the rest of the credit card guys who insist on credit payment for a first-batch unit:

can you please stop pretending that you're part of a community project? because you're not acting like your are - you're merely being your regular online shopper. nothing wrong with that, but the differentiation needs to be made. as you wouldn't consider yourselves a part of some overseas seller when you order from them arrives a couple of months later due to whatever issues, would you?

if you've missed the facts till now somehow, open pandora is a venture undertaken by a few enthusiasts with a vision and with production experience, but apparently without enough venture financing experience. as every venture, open pandora is risky. but the newsflash is, it's _way_ riskier for the pandora team than it's for you, as if the project goes down the most you'll lose is your $400 bucks - you can bet your asses craig & co will lose way more than that.

what you're actually doing with those 400 usd is invest in a future product, not unlike how venture capitalists invest in startups, at the risk of losing their money. and yes, the pandora team _is_ a startup, and those of us who have found a way to hard-pay for their pandoras up-front _are_ investing in a prospect. the return of our investments is a device we value considerably to undertake the risk. oh, btw, there's no such thing as a 'guaranteed credit card money-back' - you can ask amex about that.

i think the posters on this forum should really ask themselves: are those 400 dollars i want to spent on a gadget actually needed elsewhere for pressing needs? if the answer is yes, and these 400 bucks are your food/clothes/utility/whatever money, then for god's sake, don't go for impulse gadget buys!

if they aren't, and you're just a regular net shopper, then wait till the product (if, when) becomes readily available at craig's store. if, on the other hand, you do believe in the project to the point of _participating_ in it, then take a deep breath and make the investment, as craig has clearly shown he needs the capital to carry on with the first batch production.

otherwise, you can kindly shut up and carry on with your daily duties, as your intention of payment does not make you any more special than any other person remotely interested in the device.

hope nobody was offended by the above, as no offense was meant.

cheers.

ps: for those who really know what they're doing but can use only a credit card - i recently used moneybookers.com for an overseas payment (merchant's choice - not mine), and it came out as a 'cash advance' - i.e. the money was taken from the card as hard cash, prior to which i had to complete the full credit card verification procedure (not your regular nod and go). the cash advance costed me an extra 3 dollars, which turned out is a standard surcharge for the this type of transaction with this card. and it's the same kind of transaction that occurs when you withdraw cash from your credit card at an ATM, and you need to enter a pin, so it appears to be a true debit (i.e. non-tentative) transaction.

 

[Consequence_9]

first off, once you took the first pre-orders you entered a informal contract with the pre-order's that you WILL deliver the stated product.

second, if your going to insist that we pay through a method that is NOT available to a portion of your customers that you said you will take orders from. well, needless to say i would have to take the appropriate action.

edit: anyone know where in the uk this 'company' is located?

What action?
The "I can't buy a Pandora with my credit card, jump up and down and stomp my feet" action?
There is nothing legally actionable about your not being able to participate in the purchase of a product because of payment limitations.

The only legally actionable thing in all this mess so far is, possibly, the Amex orders which were not refunded.
In all other cases, people were refunded, and many people subsequently paid by bank transfer, google checkout, and the rest did not make any additional payment.

alerting the uk government consumer protection system. they entered a contract when they first accepted pre-orders. if they refuse to honor it by insisting we pay with a system that look fraudulent, won't accept sending money from the united states but will allow it to be sent to it.


Where is this contract?

have you been reading the site and understand basic consumer rights? when you pay for a product the sell must provide it, if the seller pulls stuff and delays and delays and won't tell why you have a legal right to get the authority's involved.

when you pre-ordered you payed for a product, the money might of been refunded but by saying it won't effect your pre-order status is the same as saying the contract still stands. you may still have the money but they still promise to deliver and you promise to give back the money you are temporarly holding.

What are you talking about? they most certainly have told us why. They've been extremely good with updating us on the reasons for the delays. None of these problems were things that were directly under their control. And once again, its a matter of trust, if you don't trust them then you shouldn't have ordered. It would be one thing if they were a big, well-established company, but they aren't, so get over it. If you didn't foresee the possibility of a bumpy road then you're just being ignorant.

 

[Iorgy77]

I didnt read through all the thread, but what happens to those who can only use a credit card? No idea yet?

to the rest of the credit card guys who insist on credit payment for a first-batch unit:

can you please stop pretending that you're part of a community project? because you're not acting like your are - you're merely being your regular online shopper. nothing wrong with that, but the differentiation needs to be made. as you wouldn't consider yourselves a part of some overseas seller when you order from them arrives a couple of months later due to whatever issues, would you?

if you've missed the facts till now somehow, open pandora is a venture undertaken by a few enthusiasts with a vision and with production experience, but apparently without enough venture financing experience. as every venture, open pandora is risky. but the newsflash is, it's _way_ riskier for the pandora team than it's for you, as if the project goes down the most you'll lose is your $400 bucks - you can bet your asses craig & co will lose way more than that.

what you're actually doing with those 400 usd is invest in a future product, not unlike how venture capitalists invest in startups, at the risk of losing their money. and yes, the pandora team _is_ a startup, and those of us who have found a way to hard-pay for their pandoras up-front _are_ investing in a prospect. the return of our investments is a device we value considerably to undertake the risk. oh, btw, there's no such thing as a 'guaranteed credit card money-back' - you can ask amex about that.

i think the posters on this forum should really ask themselves: are those 400 dollars i want to spent on a gadget actually needed elsewhere for pressing needs? if the answer is yes, and these 400 bucks are your food/clothes/utility/whatever money, then for god's sake, don't go for impulse gadget buys!

if they aren't, and you're just a regular net shopper, then wait till the product (if, when) becomes readily available at craig's store. if, on the other hand, you do believe in the project to the point of _participating_ in it, then take a deep breath and make the investment, as craig has clearly shown he needs the capital to carry on with the first batch production.

otherwise, you can kindly shut up and carry on with your daily duties, as your intention of payment does not make you any more special than any other person remotely interested in the device.



None of that is relevant, You aren't investing in anything you will never get a return from your investment or some kinda dividend besides the actual item you are purchasing. If the Pandora team originally said first batch will be for bank transfer customers only, then fine. But that isn't the case. So now people have paid been refunded at a loss and then told if they still want to get one they have to pay more. So I suggest you get off your high horse telling people with legitimate gripes to stop posting their frustrations.

 

[darkblu]

None of that is relevant, You aren't investing in anything you will never get a return from your investment or some kinda dividend besides the actual item you are purchasing.

so am i or am i not getting a return? how do you know i'm not valuing the pandora at more than 400usd?

QUOTE
If the Pandora team originally said first batch will be for bank transfer customers only, then fine. But that isn't the case. So now people have paid been refunded..

oh, look - people have been refunded! (and the unlucky amex guys have been assured a delivery)

QUOTE
..at a loss and then told if they still want to get one they have to pay more.

how is a refund at a loss due to currency exchange relevant to the discussion at hand? you are aware currency exchange rates fluctuate, aren't you? people would've been 'refunded at a loss' in any case, even if they had bought a pack a cigarettes from a uk vender and the deal fell through - pandora have little to help with that. neither did they freeze their bank account themselves. apropos, some people actually _made_ money from the refund.

QUOTE
So I suggest you get off your high horse telling people with legitimate gripes to stop posting their frustrations.

consider my post a result of my 'frustration' with people who have not even paid for what they're complaining about. as you say, forums are for venting frustration, correct?

 

[truekaiser]

first off, once you took the first pre-orders you entered a informal contract with the pre-order's that you WILL deliver the stated product.

second, if your going to insist that we pay through a method that is NOT available to a portion of your customers that you said you will take orders from. well, needless to say i would have to take the appropriate action.

edit: anyone know where in the uk this 'company' is located?

What action?
The "I can't buy a Pandora with my credit card, jump up and down and stomp my feet" action?
There is nothing legally actionable about your not being able to participate in the purchase of a product because of payment limitations.

The only legally actionable thing in all this mess so far is, possibly, the Amex orders which were not refunded.
In all other cases, people were refunded, and many people subsequently paid by bank transfer, google checkout, and the rest did not make any additional payment.

alerting the uk government consumer protection system. they entered a contract when they first accepted pre-orders. if they refuse to honor it by insisting we pay with a system that look fraudulent, won't accept sending money from the united states but will allow it to be sent to it.


Where is this contract?

have you been reading the site and understand basic consumer rights? when you pay for a product the sell must provide it, if the seller pulls stuff and delays and delays and won't tell why you have a legal right to get the authority's involved.

when you pre-ordered you payed for a product, the money might of been refunded but by saying it won't effect your pre-order status is the same as saying the contract still stands. you may still have the money but they still promise to deliver and you promise to give back the money you are temporarly holding.

What are you talking about? they most certainly have told us why. They've been extremely good with updating us on the reasons for the delays. None of these problems were things that were directly under their control. And once again, its a matter of trust, if you don't trust them then you shouldn't have ordered. It would be one thing if they were a big, well-established company, but they aren't, so get over it. If you didn't foresee the possibility of a bumpy road then you're just being ignorant.

there explanation on the refunds was bank problems. it took a ton of poking and prodding here on the forums to get any more information out about it.

 

[Iorgy77]

how do you know i'm not valuing the pandora at more than 400usd?

I don't, hence it isn't an investment in the company but rather a purchase from that company. Which helps the company continue to be in business. You aren't buying shares in OpenPandora.

how is a refund at a loss due to currency exchange relevant to the discussion at hand?

It is the source of frustration for many non UK pre order customers who now are told they will have to do a bank transfer. International bank transfers are stupid expensive for many people so they lose more money if they want to stay on and receive a pandora. Not the fault of OpenPandora, well not directly, but it isn't their fault either.

you are aware currency exchange rates fluctuate, aren't you?

Yes. You are aware it is still frustrating for those involved though right? to have to be refunded in the first place.

consider my post a result of my 'frustration' with people who have not even paid for what they're complaining about. as you say, forums are for venting frustration, correct?

Correct, I never told you not to vent yours, but you seem to think it is fine to silence others. Besides they have paid and then got refunded, in many cases a lesser amount due to the point above. So these particular people have two choices: Keep the lesser amount or pay even more for international bank transfer.

People trust Visa/Mastercard when doing international purchases because you can link the transaction to a specific purchase, an international bank transfer is very difficult to provide evidence that it is linked to any particular transaction. It is just money changing hands for whatever reason, the bank doesn't care.

This is what is getting up the people you are trying to silence noses.

 

[gaterooze]

ps: for those who really know what they're doing but can use only a credit card - i recently used moneybookers.com for an overseas payment (merchant's choice - not mine), and it came out as a 'cash advance' - i.e. the money was taken from the card as hard cash, prior to which i had to complete the full credit card verification procedure (not your regular nod and go). the cash advance costed me an extra 3 dollars, which turned out is a standard surcharge for the this type of transaction with this card. and it's the same kind of transaction that occurs when you withdraw cash from your credit card at an ATM, and you need to enter a pin, so it appears to be a true debit (i.e. non-tentative) transaction.

That's one of the sites I listed earlier.

Is Moneybookers.com usable, craigix?

 

[daffy]

Yet another communications cock-up. Yay.

They have my email address. I'm subscribed to the unofficial blog. I check the official blog daily. I check the new posts search nearly always daily.

Ordering was opened up via Google Checkout? What, for ten seconds? I knew nothing about this. WHERE WAS MY FUCKING EMAIL?