Transfers... Tranzfers..

[mali]

but I guess it's not the case in western Europe

Hi, neighbor I've got an online shop in Germany, roughly 60% of the customers pay by bank transfers, 40% by Paypal.

 

[monvmentvm]

but I guess it's not the case in western Europe

Hi, neighbor I've got an online shop in Germany, roughly 60% of the customers pay by bank transfers, 40% by Paypal.


Before Paypal was available, probably 100% were bank transfers and no CC users, right? It's the same in Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France, Spain... UK may be the only exception to this.

I also paid for several things in Asia using bank transfer. The only bad thing about using bank transfers outside of the EU is that nowhere else this IBAN/BIC system is being used. This leads to ugly bank fees, because they have to manage the route from your account to the target account. The IBAN/BIC system identifies the bank, country, account etc. exactly so the involved banks don't have to do it manually. That's why bank transfers inside the EU don't have additional costs.

 

[mali]

Before Paypal was available, probably 100% were bank transfers and no CC users, right?

Yep

 

[TaG]

Craig, I do wish you wouldn't post these bombs and then go and leave them to blow up. The CD idea is bad - it sends all the wrong messages and has the potential to blow the whole project as banks will react badly and it would be laughed at on the wider web, destroying credibility.

@truekaiser: there is no contract any longer between OP ltd and someone who has been refunded. The refund effectively cancelled that contract. For your new contract, you cannot complain about lack of payment method.

This whole thread is seriously depressing.

 

[mali]

This whole thread is seriously depressing.

+1

 

[quartercast]

Craig, I posted this a while back but don't think I got an answer;

Why don't you set up business accounts at other banks in several major countries (US, UK, Australia, etc) so people can transfer money to you (via bank transfer) locally? Then you can transfer the money internationally as you wish (via bank transfer). I think a lot of people would like to pay via bank transfer, but are daunted by the fees involved (usually US$20-40).

Additionally, it seems some people believe they lost money due to the exchange rate, and must pay the original amount in full to re-order a pandora. Surely this is not true? People must know exactly how much they should pay, and these instructions should be posted very clearly somewhere.

I really don't know how you expect forum users to provide financial advice, since we are the ones who know the least about what's going on. If you can't sort this out on your own, I hope you hire some people who can.

Thanks for reading

 

[lippy]

Craig, I posted this a while back but don't think I got an answer;

Why don't you set up business accounts at other banks in several major countries (US, UK, Australia, etc) so people can transfer money to you (via bank transfer) locally? Then you can transfer the money internationally as you wish (via bank transfer). I think a lot of people would like to pay via bank transfer, but are daunted by the fees involved (usually US$20-40).

Craig did say at some point that was planning to do this, however at the moment, with shipping date looming ever closer, i think there is no point.
All I want to hear from Craig is why he is so desperate to get pre-orders, and why does he just not wait until the pandoras are indeed ready to ship, and then take CC orders?!

 

[Racemaniac]

Craig, I posted this a while back but don't think I got an answer;

Why don't you set up business accounts at other banks in several major countries (US, UK, Australia, etc) so people can transfer money to you (via bank transfer) locally? Then you can transfer the money internationally as you wish (via bank transfer). I think a lot of people would like to pay via bank transfer, but are daunted by the fees involved (usually US$20-40).

Craig did say at some point that was planning to do this, however at the moment, with shipping date looming ever closer, i think there is no point.
All I want to hear from Craig is why he is so desperate to get pre-orders, and why does he just not wait until the pandoras are indeed ready to ship, and then take CC orders?!

we do indeed need the simple facts, cause these kind of threads are just getting ridiculous with speculation and lack of information
and indeed, why not set up a few bussiness accounts over the world, and handle it like that. makes the whole transfer thing far easier

 

[Creature XL]

That is again not a link to a shop selling products to consumers and expecting them to pay via bank transfer! you stated it is normal for people in europe to buy goods via a bank transfer IT ISNT! you still havent shown a single shop showing Bank transfer as a payment option.

is it really SOO hard to type: amazon.de / amazon.nl / amazon.WTF ?
I ALWAYS pay there via bank transfer.

If you like, I can send you lots more. You just have to go to geizhals.at/de (a price comparision site) select any product and look at the listed shops. I NEVER payed with credit card, my GF never payed with CC (and she buys A LOT stuff).
A friend of mine lived a year in the US and he came back and told me:"Incredeible! The Americans pay EVERYWHERE with credit cards. Even in situation where we sould pay with money". So yousee, there are cultural differences between the US and some countries in Europe. Which one is better is not up to me decide. Each to his own.

As was stated above several times, YOU CAN GET YOUR MONEY BACK FROM THE BANK!
Maybe its not possible in the US the UK or where ever. In .de and as it sems in .nl and austria IT IS!

One other thing. Several posts up there was a nice post about the difference between "supporters of the project" and "internet shoppers". This is not directed at you, but it is teh truth and EVERYBODY who don't see it that way, SHOULD back out. I have two friends sitting here wanting to order a P each via bank transfer.
Of course it is easier for me, because I live in the same country as ED and MAY have better options to get my money back from ED (IF ANYTHING WENTS WRONG!)


EDIT:
After reading the thread further, it seems like there is the possibility that "bank transfers" are different from country to country.
for me a "bank transfer" is, I give my bank account details to the shop and they fetch the money from it and then send me the product.
i can undo this fetching when it was not correct! So, if they don't send the product or take too much money I get my money back.
AFAIK I have 6 weeks to do so WITHOUT any trouble. If it would be longer then 6 weeks I have no idea what it takes to get the money back.
And yes, checks were disbanded in germany 8 years ago. At least my bank doesn't give them out since then.
Therefore, I want to make clear that I don't want to offend any US or UK people, its just I am so used to my kind of bank transfers thet I could not imagine that it is a problem for UK people to make a bank transfer to a shop in the UK. The US people are a different kind of story as they aren't in the EU (at least not yet ) and have horrible fees for transfers.

 

[Racemaniac]

That is again not a link to a shop selling products to consumers and expecting them to pay via bank transfer! you stated it is normal for people in europe to buy goods via a bank transfer IT ISNT! you still havent shown a single shop showing Bank transfer as a payment option.

is it really SOO hard to type: amazon.de / amazon.nl / amazon.WTF ?
I ALWAYS pay there via bank transfer.

If you like, I can send you lots more. You just have to go to geizhals.at/de (a price comparision site) select any product and look at the listed shops. I NEVER payed with credit card, my GF never payed with CC (and she buys A LOT stuff).
A friend of mine lived a year in the US and he came back and told me:"Incredeible! The Americans pay EVERYWHERE with credit cards. Even in situation where we sould pay with money". So yousee, there are cultural differences between the US and some countries in Europe. Which one is better is not up to me decide. Each to his own.

As was stated above several times, YOU CAN GET YOUR MONEY BACK FROM THE BANK!
Maybe its not possible in the US the UK or where ever. In .de and as it sems in .nl and austria IT IS!

One other thing. Several posts up there was a nice post about the difference between "supporters of the project" and "internet shoppers". This is not directed at you, but it is teh truth and EVERYBODY who don't see it that way, SHOULD back out. I have two friends sitting here wanting to order a P each via bank transfer.
Of course it is easier for me, because I live in the same country as ED and MAY have better options to get my money back from ED (IF ANYTHING WENTS WRONG!)

nice post

i think the next thing the open pandora team has got to do is simple:
give anyone who still has to reorder 1 or 2 weeks to make their payment via transfer (wether they like it or not). if they don't want to, they can cancel their order.
after those 2 weeks, reopen the slots for people who want to still join the first batch, and will pay by transfer, and get this shit over with.
it seems the only course of action that will end this mess in a proper way, and get all of the financial problems behind us

 

[TaG]

Why get antsy with each other?

As was stated above several times, YOU CAN GET YOUR MONEY BACK FROM THE BANK!
Maybe its not possible in the US the UK or where ever. In .de and as it sems in .nl and austria IT IS!

Therein is the issue - when you transfer money here it is gone, like handing over cash, or when a cheque has cleared.

Don't forget that if one of OP's suppliers failed resulting in no Pandoras through no fault of OP, then you would still qualify for a CC refund. This is why there is also the 30 day limit. Just because somebody trusts OP and the devs does not mean there aren't benefits to using CC.

 

[Racemaniac]

Why get antsy with each other?

As was stated above several times, YOU CAN GET YOUR MONEY BACK FROM THE BANK!
Maybe its not possible in the US the UK or where ever. In .de and as it sems in .nl and austria IT IS!

Therein is the issue - when you transfer money here it is gone, like handing over cash, or when a cheque has cleared.

Don't forget that if one of OP's suppliers failed resulting in no Pandoras through no fault of OP, then you would still qualify for a CC refund. This is why there is also the 30 day limit. Just because somebody trusts OP and the devs does not mean there aren't benefits to using CC.
well, then i assume a lot of uk/us will give up their pandora slot, and the first batch of the pandora will be more for europeans who are used to work by transfer, since our banks seem to be giving enough protection, and not relying on us using credit cards for everything

 

[NickLoTurco]

I really can't be arsed reading this whole thread, but has Craig actually responded to any of our concerns? Al people want to know is why can't they make it first and then charge later as they've already said that manufacturing was paid for!

I appreciate all the work Craig has put in, I really do. But just when you think things are speeding up, he puts this thread here and leaves us all to panic over it and start squabbling!

Once the first batch is made and dispatched, second/third batchers hopefully won't have to go through all this, lucky bastards!

 

[Racemaniac]

I really can't be arsed reading this whole thread, but has Craig actually responded to any of our concerns? Al people want to know is why can't they make it first and then charge later as they've already said that manufacturing was paid for!

I appreciate all the work Craig has put in, I really do. But just when you think things are speeding up, he puts this thread here and leaves us all to panic over it and start squabbling!

Once the first batch is made and dispatched, second/third batchers hopefully won't have to go through all this, lucky bastards!

the problem of being an early adopter ^^
and yes, they should monitor threads like this far better

 

[javaJake]

Edit: FAQ updated! January 17th, 2008 @ 1257 EST

It's too bad they have a volunteer PR guy, and they don't use him.

Someone wanted a FAQ. That's a great idea. Here's a start. If anyone wants the source BB-code to edit it up, send me a PM.

• I'm an AMEX cardholder, and I've paid, but I have not received a refund. What's my situation?
  You're good to go. OpenPandora has decided to take the hit since it's unlikely at this stage either you or OpenPandora will see that money.
  
  
• I've been refunded, and I want to re-order by credit card. How do I do that?
  As it stands, you can't. There are two viable solutions mentioned: either wait until the Pandoras are ready to ship, and then receive credit card orders (vs. pre-orders), or sell gift cards which can be used to pre-order a Pandora. These solutions assume that credit card orders can even be received. Also, these solution were presented by the community and we've yet to hear any official reply. The best option right now is to do a bank transfer.
  
  
• I've decided to do a bank transfer. What are my options?
  There's two: transferz.com and your bank. If you're not willing to trust an online company, but are taken aback by the large fees of an international bank transfer through your bank, OpenPandora has kindly offered to discount the re-order price to pay for some of the fees.
  
  
• Aren't bank transfers insecure?
  Relative to credit cards? Yes. Relative to sending cash by mail? No. Is trust involved? Yes. If you're to make it through this entire situation unscathed by any future credit-card issues, you must re-order by bank transfer.
  
  
• I don't trust them! I think they're a fraud/scam!
  Whether or not you plan to trust OpenPandora with your money is your choice. Screaming that a company who's done business for 10 years, has spent all kinds of money to develop prototypes, development boards, and software for the Pandora, and has refunded everyone's money (nearly) at least once, is a fraud or a scam is not going to be met with agreement by the older members of this forum. We've heard the arguments before - some of them are valid, and some of them are not - and what it comes down to is each individual's personal decision.
  
  
• Why wasn't my entire order refunded?
  When you ordered, it was (or should've been) the general understanding that you're paying 200 GBP, not 340 USD. Thus, when you were refunded, you were given back the 200 GBP in USD. It's going to be less, because of conversion rates. Try entering in the amount that you were refunded into Google (something like "200 GBP in USD") and you'll see that the amount comes to around 200 GBP. (Keep in mind that rates have probably fluctuated since you were refunded, so the amount reported by Google will not be 100% accurate. Nevertheless, it does demonstrate what we're talking about.)
  
  
• I've sent my money, but I decided I want a refund. What do I do?
  E-mail the company you pre-ordered from. They'll refund the amount of your re-order. You can find the e-mail address you should use by looking at the "From" header in the order confirmation e-mail you received.

Any more questions that need to belong in there?

 

[aq21]

i think the next thing the open pandora team has got to do is simple:
give anyone who still has to reorder 1 or 2 weeks to make their payment via transfer (wether they like it or not). if they don't want to, they can cancel their order.
after those 2 weeks, reopen the slots for people who want to still join the first batch, and will pay by transfer, and get this shit over with.
it seems the only course of action that will end this mess in a proper way, and get all of the financial problems behind us

If they do that, I promise you that if this thing is actually manufactured and sold eventually, and it comes up on slashdot/digg/engadget/whatever, there will be tens or hundreds of people who will explain to potential customers, what kind of thieving bastards are trying to steal their money by pretending to sell a product. I will surely be one of them.

 

[Racemaniac]

i think the next thing the open pandora team has got to do is simple:
give anyone who still has to reorder 1 or 2 weeks to make their payment via transfer (wether they like it or not). if they don't want to, they can cancel their order.
after those 2 weeks, reopen the slots for people who want to still join the first batch, and will pay by transfer, and get this shit over with.
it seems the only course of action that will end this mess in a proper way, and get all of the financial problems behind us

If they do that, I promise you that if this thing is actually manufactured and sold eventually, and it comes up on slashdot/digg/engadget/whatever, there will be tens or hundreds of people who will explain to potential customers, what kind of thieving bastards are trying to steal their money by pretending to sell a product. I will surely be one of them.

care to explain your motivation?
banks won't accept more credit card payments, so it has to be by transfer.
if you have been refunded, you atm have 0 claim to a pandora, the only reason you're still in te queue is the massive effort of the openpandora team to get everything resolved
the only way of payment is transfer, so all they can do is as fast as possible get those transfers done, and if some people really don't like transfers because in their country it's done otherwise. then honestly, too bad for them, welcome to the rest of the world, i'm sorry for the culture shock.

and when the pandoras have been shipped, and the second batch is on its way, with all experiences had, and them able to properly tackle credit card orders, why the hell would anything you claim about them being thieves make sense?
they'll have given pandoras to those that payed, and will give to those who order next.

 

[Eniko]

That is again not a link to a shop selling products to consumers and expecting them to pay via bank transfer! you stated it is normal for people in europe to buy goods via a bank transfer IT ISNT! you still havent shown a single shop showing Bank transfer as a payment option.
l2read. It's a system that facilitates bank transfers to let people pay (in advance) for goods in webshops, just like one would a credit card, except a bank transfer. There have been 25 million of these, and you're saying I showed you nothing? And on top of that: bol.com, bol.com, bol.com, bol.com, bol.com, bol.com, bol.com, bol.com, bol.com, bol.com.

Seriously. =_= That IS what you asked for, if you just want to roll to disbelieve with weighted dice fine, but I'm going to stop wasting my breath on this now. Obviously I'm in on the great conspiracy.

 

[RajTakhar]

I guess Craig was wrong to start this thread with the suggestion of sending a CD followed by Pandora

There seems to be a general sense of Hysteria which this thread has de-generated itself into quite quickly

We all seem to be in several camps;
Those who paid by bank transfer initially - so we sent all out cash in one hit
The paypal, credit card orders which initially got refunded and people have been sitting on the fence as to whether they should pay the refunded amount to get a Pandora, or await the CC re-order page being made available.

I guess what craig should have done in hindsight is wait till the FDM's were there - lined up the stress testing then made the suggestions - perhaps having seen a near complete (albeit FDM Pandora) it would of eased the stress that some people have out there

Yep - I paid for mine as a bank transfer as I have faith in Craig and co, having previously purchased as GP32 and pre-ordered a GP2x

 

[Iorgy77]

@Racemaniac:
I think you are confusing Electronic Funds Transfer (EFT) with bank transfer which is actually direct deposit. Direct deposit usually isnt instant where as EFT is.

ehh, care to explain the difference?


Let me know if its different for you guys in Europe.

In Australia a bank transfer or direct deposit is when you go to your banks webpage, log in and send money to another account. Or go into the branch of the person you want to give money to, fill out a deposit slip and deposit cash directly into someones account.

An Electronic Funds Transfer is done by a third party and tied into the reciept of the item you buy with a detailed record of what was bought, when and from who. The third party then fetches the money from your account, usually instantly.