Transfers... Tranzfers..

[Phawx]

I'm not missing any points. You can ask AMEX customers about the "security" of their money. (Thankfully it looks like they'll get looked after either way).

Right now, my bank transferred money has more chance of being traced & reclaimed than any money on the wrong side of the AMEX double-brick wall.

Not that there's any chance I'll go down that path, because I trust the developers and want the project to forge ahead. It would be great if more people felt this way.

I'm with you. I just can't understand how people can order by credit card, get their money refunded, freak out about coming up short due to exchange rates, even have their money arbitrarily put in limbo, and then turn around and demand to do it all over again because it's supposedly "safer". I'll be over here on the other side of the fence happily ignoring all this stuff after this reply again, feeling completely secure and safe in the knowledge that my money has actually reached the developers and can't be shuffled around or arbitrarily put into limbo by inept bankers, all the while costing me even more money.

And because apparently some of you missed this the last time the reordering storm broke loose; it is not a sign of amateurs for them to prefer bank transfers. To many of us (europeans) this is the most normal thing in the world, and that means it may seem that way from your cultural perspective but that doesn't actually make it a general truth.

I'm probably arguing with a wall here but I patently dislike it being insinuated that I and others like me are "insane" for paying by bank transfer when it's the most normal thing in the world where I live to pay for virtually anything by banktransfer. We're not insane, we're not brave, we do not need to be commended. Consider for a moment - if you're one of the people who thinks this - that you look as paranoid to us as we look "brave" (insane) to you.

Also the CD thing sounds like a terribly reckless idea. As someone who's already paid for her Pandora I don't really think endangering the whole thing by trying to defraud anti-fraud measures is wise.


Some people can't pay by bank transfer, for whatever reason. Some people don't trust OpenPandora. US orders go to GBAX which is international for us. So if things were to go belly up, they believe they won't have a leg to stand on.

It just comes down to trust. I'm willing to lay down the smackeroo's through Bank transfer, but I have to get my money back from AMEX, first.

Also, can the team say some shit? If this thread represented the Enterprise, Scotty would be barking, "Captain, she canna take much more!" Reading from the beginning of this thread gives a GREAT impression that Open Pandora is going down in a ball of fire. And seriously, I am about to say FUCK CC orders. I'll drop $2,000 on this and I will resell the extras that I get over here in the US.

 

[Racemaniac]

Some people can't pay by bank transfer, for whatever reason. Some people don't trust OpenPandora. US orders go to GBAX which is international for us. So if things were to go belly up, they believe they won't have a leg to stand on.

It just comes down to trust. I'm willing to lay down the smackeroo's through Bank transfer, but I have to get my money back first from AMEX.

frankly, if they don't thrust pandora, what the hell are they doing here -_-

i do hope the devs will soon give us a proper update of what they're facing financially, cause all the speculation here is poisonous.

and the end solution is probably simple: whoever is left, either pay by transfer, or cancel your order, and then i assume a lot of other people will be happy to take your place.

 

[Username]

Oh dear.

I have so much trust in Craig and the team, I know it WILL come. I'm not sure the CD idea is good. That sounds really dodgy, at least for the bank, I'm afraid.

We really need to sort this out, this is really getting a bit out of hand. What did Craig do, step under a row of ladders, while smashing mirrors and tripping over black cats?


Watch out for cracks, or I believe you'll be hearing from your pained mother very shortly.

 

[Eniko]

Some people can't pay by bank transfer, for whatever reason. Some people don't trust OpenPandora. US orders go to GBAX which is international for us. So if things were to go belly up, they believe they won't have a leg to stand on.
For the record I'm not talking about the people that simply can't, but more the people who could but don't want to who keep prattling on about how much "safer" it is to do it by credit card when they've been burnt by their supposedly safe method already.

 

[Racemaniac]

Some people can't pay by bank transfer, for whatever reason. Some people don't trust OpenPandora. US orders go to GBAX which is international for us. So if things were to go belly up, they believe they won't have a leg to stand on.
For the record I'm not talking about the people that simply can't, but more the people who could but don't want to who keep prattling on about how much "safer" it is to do it by credit card when they've been burnt by their supposedly safe method already.

well, it's a safety that got triggered that caused all this (except for amex whi are apparantly taking advantage of this?)
so you can still more or less understand the safety issue

not thrusting pandora, then why the hell did they go for the first batch. everyone know they'd be in for an unpredictable ride. and that their support would be needed to get to the finish line -_-

 

[Phawx]

Yea, that's fair and I agree. I'll burn a paycheck on the Pandora cause. I will definitely make a profit on the extras as well, so I've no problem. Though, I don't think many people would be ready to join. I have to catch my bus soon, So hopefully we can hear from the team?

How are the economies of scale tipped if OP ltd, only made 2,000? Do you HAVE to create all 4,000?

 

[cbox]

I've been patiently waiting for awhile, and if there is no credit card option I'll have to bow out. I looked at tranzfers.com and signed up for an account but they make you jump through a bunch of hoops, they said they were going to mail me something to verify my home address and I never got it, so I gave up. If there is no decent credit card option I'll have to wait until later sorry.

How long ago did you sign up? I think they have actual people send the mails out, as opposed to an automated system (and it's currently Friday night / Saturday morning in most places I think). They do require one-off "paper" confirmation of your ID before they can process transactions, just like a bank does. Which is good security.

I signed up at tranzfers.com like a month ago, and they sent me an email recently saying they hadn't received any confirmation, so I assume they sent the letter, but I haven't received it and have checked my mail regularly. I told them to just cancel my account since if it takes that long it doesn't really look that good to me.

 

[marshal]

@a.tom
I actually don't think that many ppl here thinks it's a scam. But ppl from the outside might think so... that equals bad reputation.
The developer are putting a lot of effort in the product itself but when it comes to a good business plan and how to finance the production I am sorry but it just seem like something is going wrong. Taking CC preorder when they knew they probably couldn't get the product out in 1 month what just a big mistake.
I still believe that there is a good change that they will find a solution and then can start selling the unit normally. Still the possibility that they run out of money and go into serious trouble does exist. Not business is risk-free for sure.

@Eniko
I also live in europe and I can see how a bank transfer is an acceptable way of payment. It doesn't provide any security but yes it work ok otherwise.
Still when the pre-order started ppl where supposed to be able to pay by CC.
The pandora team should have known better and not accept CC order from the start. I think I already said that in my other post though ><

I hope we get some kind of official answer from the pandora team on what's going on. Starting to create a mass-panic is certainly not going to help for sure and that's not the goal but ppl want answers.

 

[cbox]

Europeans aren't paying $45 or more for a bank transfer like us Americans are, sorry I'm not gonna spend that much for the privilege of sending money when a credit card would not have that charge. The credit card is my debit card anyway so the whole concept of the extra money for sending the same money from the same account boggles me that you would get charged for one method and not the other.

 

[Racemaniac]

Europeans aren't paying $45 or more for a bank transfer like us Americans are, sorry I'm not gonna spend that much for the privilege of sending money when a credit card would not have that charge.

ehm, hasn't it always been said that any extra costs will be carried by the pandora team? so if it costs 45$ for the transfer, you just transfer 45$ less?

 

[verm71]

How about a private, subscription-only section on the forums. The price of the subscription? 199 pounds. I see a benefit here that there will be a nice cosy area where only DEFINITE buyers chat. I think there would be a better camaraderie on the boards, knowing that everyone's in the same boat, as opposed to intermixed with folks who aren't sure or don't care about getting one.

Ideas?

 

[relapse808]

I have never seen so may problems in all my life with a product. If this was some other device and not the pandora I would have given up already. I like the pandora and it is my dream handheld device so I can handle a few more stomach turns. I have to pay via credit card. I dont care what method you figure out as long as I can pay you the money and get my device.

 

[a.tom]

@marshal
i'm with you - but endless discussions about faulty business plans doesn't help us at the moment. it was stated, that amex ppl get their pandora whatever happens and extra costs for transfers are somehow refunded.
i guess everybody (including me) should calm down now and wait for a statement from craig or chip...

 

[Daryoon]

This has become a train wreck.

Here is some more fun info: I hadn't received a pre-order email so I e-mailed Open Pandora. Jacquelyn kindly replied AFTER the information from Craigix today (i.e. that there would be no more google/cc orders) and she told me not to worry, my e-mail for a cc order would come. LOL.

I fully support and fully desire a Pandora. That is why I preordered. That is why I stuck around to re-preorder after I had already lost $75 on the forced refund. But now this?

They claim they won't take preorders until delivery is reasonably imminent.
They say things are on track (rod, reel and bait).
They take preorders.
They claim they don't need the preorders to make the units, but ...
They miss delivery date (not surprising, but look at how far they have missed it).
CC shit-storm.
Never receive alleged e-mail about refund.
Takes until the first week of January to get a refund on money that was suppose to be refunded way sooner.
Lose money in CC shit-storm.
Told by the community to shut up, things are dandy (I want the unit, so I don't fight).
Told reorder emails are going out.
Claims that Pandora is just on the horizon (another rod, reel and bait?)
Conveniently, after the last hook, line and sinker, another payment problem arises: Google is done.
Told we should just pay by transfer (no protection, big transaction fees in US, etc).
Things get quiet.

Train wreck.

And trust me, Mr. Madoff (for those that read the news) seemed like a great guy too. Expecting us to order in this market without protection is crazy. And all of this is crazy.

 

[mali]

This thread has opened Pandora's box again, kind of.

 

[Tom`]

I'm with you. I just can't understand how people can order by credit card, get their money refunded, freak out about coming up short due to exchange rates, even have their money arbitrarily put in limbo, and then turn around and demand to do it all over again because it's supposedly "safer". I'll be over here on the other side of the fence happily ignoring all this stuff after this reply again, feeling completely secure and safe in the knowledge that my money has actually reached the developers and can't be shuffled around or arbitrarily put into limbo by inept bankers, all the while costing me even more money.

And because apparently some of you missed this the last time the reordering storm broke loose; it is not a sign of amateurs for them to prefer bank transfers. To many of us (europeans) this is the most normal thing in the world, and that means it may seem that way from your cultural perspective but that doesn't actually make it a general truth.

I'm probably arguing with a wall here but I patently dislike it being insinuated that I and others like me are "insane" for paying by bank transfer when it's the most normal thing in the world where I live to pay for virtually anything by banktransfer. We're not insane, we're not brave, we do not need to be commended. Consider for a moment - if you're one of the people who thinks this - that you look as paranoid to us as we look "brave" (insane) to you.

Also the CD thing sounds like a terribly reckless idea. As someone who's already paid for her Pandora I don't really think endangering the whole thing by trying to defraud anti-fraud measures is wise.


I don't know about Europe, but in America, if someone (say, on eBay, or by telephone, or any other form of communication regarding sales not in a physical shop) asks you to pay for anything by direct bank transfer, it's like a big flashing sign that says SCAM.

The fact is, as I understand it (and I've never done a bank transfer and I am not a lawyer or have any special financial knowledge, so it's possible that I'm incorrect, but I don't think so) it is IMPOSSIBLE to recover any money you directly transfer to anyone, without a messy lawsuit at the very least.

Now, I don't think for a moment that this whole thing is a scam. I trust the honesty of the Pandora team. I trust their ability to make an awesome handheld, which is why I pre-ordered in the first place.

But I'm finding it pretty difficult to trust their competence with financial matters at this point.

Eniko, if you're willing to do a bank transfer, that's great - but if you trust Craig that far, why do you think the CD thing is a bad idea? It seems that the same amount of trust is involved either way - either you believe that you'll get a Pandora if you pay them the appropriate amount, or you don't. Doing the CD thing would probably lead to you (everyone) losing the credit card protection, if you in fact receive the CD, but in that case you're no worse off than if you did a bank transfer, which doesn't offer any protection to begin with.

 

[rmm2131]

Credit cards may provide some protection, but does it really make any sense to all but the blind that the Pandora teams honest and not out to steal your money? They refunded the first time didn't they? They didn't go to Australia with your money. They've shown photos and progress has been given extensively on the Pandora's designs and problems with parts and whatnot. Doesn't seem nefarious does it?

Jeez, have a greater understanding of the situation. Craig said plainly that CC ordering is out at the moment because google checkout is wary of it. Not the end of the world is it people? Bank transfers will work for some and as the product ship date nears closer then CC ordering will probably commence again soon.

Jump ship if your knees are shaky, but the potential of the Pandora will keep even me in the game.

Remember that this will play emulators out of the box or within days of its release to the public along with being a REAL pocketable computer. Wibrain, Netbooks, OqO 2+++, DS, PSP, whatever require a lot of compromising to what the Pandora will allow you to do.

Now i've shined a light on the obvious so please let it sink in: NOT A SCAM, IS BEING MADE, TOTALLY UNIQUE, WON'T GET YOU LAID, WILL PLAY THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF GAMES.

Last thing to remind about is that the people working on the project have been around these parts a lot longer than most of us. They know what they are doing given all the shit happening outside the project so stop speculating on what can't be controlled. The team is trying to make this work for us.

Remember, fear can turn into a bigger monster than it really is.

 

[Creature XL]

Europeans aren't paying $45 or more for a bank transfer like us Americans are, sorry I'm not gonna spend that much for the privilege of sending money when a credit card would not have that charge.

Ofcourse, most if not all understand that. I have no to very low fees so I didn't hesitate (as said before, ED's shop is in the same country as I live in). BUT, the fault is maybe that there is no US distributor. The whole thing is build in North America but it has to be send to the UK to get send back to the US? I guess more US people would have payed via transfer if there were a local distributor.

But one thing to the "security of the CC": Maybe I am just dumb, but I always was of the opinion that IFF something goes wrong with the Pandora, I get a bank transfer from the german shop.

One thing which has to go with such a post. I am neither rich nor poor. I just spend 20EUROs on beer and liquor yesterday. So IFFFFFF I lose the 250EUR that means the next 10 or so times my friends go out I can't go with them or only drink one beer
What I want to say is, all my bills, my rent for the flat or whatnot gets payed! I just have to cut down on some booze. And I am strongly of the opinion that this pre-order thing is meant for EXACTLY those people who are in the same or similar position.

 

[BenTolputt]

Eniko:
I'm not sure how things are done in Europe, but here in Australia - we tend to do bank transfers for things we have already received. For example, I pay nigh on all my bills using a bank transfer. Thing is, those bills are money I owe because I already received something for which I now have to pay.

However, when I order online - I use a credit card. I have yet to receive the goods, therefore I have yet to pay the money. $450 is alot of money, and I want to be damn sure I get what I paid for. The Pandora unit I ordered (and now have to reorder) has a long way to come and still be functional. Credit card security gives me the comfort that, at some point in time, I will have my product or have my money. Think of credit card use as a third-party secured contract (which it is) and you see why it is attractive (not to mention more frequently used for online purchases).

This may simply be because I'm Aussie & not European *shrug* I don't particularly care. This is how I deal with other businesses, and how people buy goods & services from me (I own a small business).

Craigix:
Simply put, you need to clarify what the hell is going on. I have no major stake in this any more (while I still want a Pandora, I won't order until I can with a credit card), but you have alot of skin in the game and this thread (and some others on the board) are indicating a flaming fireball heading your way fast.

While currently contained on these boards, it would not take much for Engadget or something to post a "Looks like that neat Pandora unit is in trouble" type article and you'll see more customers requesting refunds or pulling out. I'm seeing people in this thread demanding answers who previously told others to shut up and let you deal with it. When you lose the "avid" supporters - you need to start doing something!

 

[Eniko]

It seems that the same amount of trust is involved either way - either you believe that you'll get a Pandora if you pay them the appropriate amount, or you don't. Doing the CD thing would probably lead to you (everyone) losing the credit card protection, if you in fact receive the CD, but in that case you're no worse off than if you did a bank transfer, which doesn't offer any protection to begin with.

I did my bank transfer long ago. So as it stands if Craig and co get taken to task and oh, I dunno, fined heavily for trying to circumvent fraud protection and then no Pandoras will ever see the light of day I'm a lot worse off than I am now.

QUOTE
I don't know about Europe, but in America, if someone (say, on eBay, or by telephone, or any other form of communication regarding sales not in a physical shop) asks you to pay for anything by direct bank transfer, it's like a big flashing sign that says SCAM.
You do know about Europe, I told you about Europe, and gbax operates out of Europe.

I'm not sure how things are done in Europe, but here in Australia - we tend to do bank transfers for things we have already received.
Well I don't know how it's done in the rest of Europe but in the Netherlands there's an entire support system called Ideal which simplifies ordering products online by bank transfer where you only have to provide your login for your online banking system and the transfer is automagically set up for you. So yes, we do bank transfer for stuff we haven't already received, at least in the Netherlands.

EDIT: Anyway I'm not saying "wow you guys suck for being so paranoid", I'm just sick of seeing the same things pointed out here that were hashed out a few bazgillion times the last time this all went down. Yes, in the US bank transfer reeks of scam. Yes, in parts of Europe bank transfers are completely normal. Yes, in Australia they also do bank transfers but not quite the same way. But yet again people are misrepresenting Craig and co's intentions by tarring the entire world with their cultural brush, when if they'd paid attention before they would almost certainly already know that just because in America "bank transfer == scam" that doesn't make it true the world over and that thus it doesn't make it at all necessarily true in this instance.