monstercameron
Well-Known Member
didnt you see the video of all the emulator I was running...even last gen sorta run!
the open pandora 2 must use an amd apu!
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
What does that have to do with anything I just said. Are you disputing my 50% claim? You act as if you're in no need for more CPU power while using language like "sorta run."
These subjective talks about emulator performance don't do anything for me. I have pretty much zero interest in emulating anything that isn't full speed most of the time, with a modest amount of frameskip. The criteria will be different for different people. It's totally subjective. What isn't subjective is that the faster your CPU is the more people you will satisfy, and that no one would have zero preference towards a more correct emulation speed.
These subjective talks about emulator performance don't do anything for me. I have pretty much zero interest in emulating anything that isn't full speed most of the time, with a modest amount of frameskip. The criteria will be different for different people. It's totally subjective. What isn't subjective is that the faster your CPU is the more people you will satisfy, and that no one would have zero preference towards a more correct emulation speed.
monstercameron
Well-Known Member
ok...you claim the cpu is faster on arm (a9 or a15?) but what about the gpu...I still think the amd radeon will beat any powervr even the sgx544mp2 in the omap 5
here is doom 3
https://www.youtube.com/embed/h4yCMl4L0RM?feature=oembed
here is doom 3
https://www.youtube.com/embed/h4yCMl4L0RM?feature=oembed
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
The ARM SoCs possible for Pandora 2, most likely OMAP5 and Exynos 5, will have much faster CPUs than Z-60, yes.
As for GPU: AFAIK Z-60 has an HD6250 @ 280MHz. AFAIK it has 16 VLIW5 clusters (so 160 FLOPS/cycle) with 8 TMUs and 4 ROPs. SGX544MP2 in OMAP5 is alleged to beat Apple's A5X so it probably runs a clock speed well over 500MHz, we'll say around 2x HD6250's clock speed. The chip has 4 TMUs (ROP count is a little nebulous for SGX stuff) and 8 USSE2 pipelines that can run 8 FLOPS/cycle (dual issue paired shared operand FP32 or independent FP16 FMA) each so 64/cycle. Scale everything for 2x to normalize vs Z-60 clocks and you get similar fillrate. AMD has a bit more ALU power but it's notoriously hard to utilize all of it in VLIW5 format (hence why they moved far away from this) so I doubt they actually win here, plus PowerVR has much more flexible thread granularity here, and has bandwidth/compute saving optimizations AMD doesn't like TBDR (instead you need stuff like depth pre-passes)
So at first glance I'd call the GPU capability pretty similar.
I don't know enough about Exynos 5's GPU to really comment.
But I still contend that all this talk is moot if the damn thing has too high of a TDP rating to fit in a shrunken Pandora. Even AMD is only positioning it for 10mm tablets instead of the thinner Clovertrail and ARM offerings, why do you think that is?
Here's another bad point for this processor in Pandora 2: http://arstechnica.c...dows-8-tablets/
No Linux or Android support, so barring successful third party integration that means you have to ship with Windows 8. Not everyone wants Windows 8, and I'm sure people will certainly not appreciate the impact it has on the price tag, especially as OPT probably won't be able to get a competitive OEM rate on it (and none in the team are very fond of Windows)
As for GPU: AFAIK Z-60 has an HD6250 @ 280MHz. AFAIK it has 16 VLIW5 clusters (so 160 FLOPS/cycle) with 8 TMUs and 4 ROPs. SGX544MP2 in OMAP5 is alleged to beat Apple's A5X so it probably runs a clock speed well over 500MHz, we'll say around 2x HD6250's clock speed. The chip has 4 TMUs (ROP count is a little nebulous for SGX stuff) and 8 USSE2 pipelines that can run 8 FLOPS/cycle (dual issue paired shared operand FP32 or independent FP16 FMA) each so 64/cycle. Scale everything for 2x to normalize vs Z-60 clocks and you get similar fillrate. AMD has a bit more ALU power but it's notoriously hard to utilize all of it in VLIW5 format (hence why they moved far away from this) so I doubt they actually win here, plus PowerVR has much more flexible thread granularity here, and has bandwidth/compute saving optimizations AMD doesn't like TBDR (instead you need stuff like depth pre-passes)
So at first glance I'd call the GPU capability pretty similar.
I don't know enough about Exynos 5's GPU to really comment.
But I still contend that all this talk is moot if the damn thing has too high of a TDP rating to fit in a shrunken Pandora. Even AMD is only positioning it for 10mm tablets instead of the thinner Clovertrail and ARM offerings, why do you think that is?
Here's another bad point for this processor in Pandora 2: http://arstechnica.c...dows-8-tablets/
No Linux or Android support, so barring successful third party integration that means you have to ship with Windows 8. Not everyone wants Windows 8, and I'm sure people will certainly not appreciate the impact it has on the price tag, especially as OPT probably won't be able to get a competitive OEM rate on it (and none in the team are very fond of Windows)
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I wouldn't buy a Pandora 2 if that means I have to buy a copy of Windows, and if it would only run Windows, I wouldn't touch it even if someone would pay me for it.
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monstercameron
Well-Known Member
monstercameron
Well-Known Member
Just did some power consumption tests for the c-50 and the idle is~.03W, the web browsing is ~1.5W, hd video is (via uvd) .5W and demanding 3d game is ~3.3W
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Tell us more about this power consumption test. What are you measuring exactly, 12V load to the APU? What are you using to perform the measurement? Did you log CPU clockspeed and load during all of these activities? What's it like while running that last gen emulator that "sorta ran"? What game was it, what was the frame rate, what were the settings - even in this context you could easily end up severely GPU limited. What type of video were you running?
Emulators are not analogous to demanding 3D games, the CPU demand scales much more higher vs GPU demand.
And no matter what you measure power load to be, so long as a chip is rated for a certain TDP (and the TDP can't be reconfigured) you must design the hardware to accommodate it. You can't have something that works in nice scenarios then melts when a game starts using 100% of both cores. The only way they can offer configuration against is if they have thermal or power throttling.
Emulators are not analogous to demanding 3D games, the CPU demand scales much more higher vs GPU demand.
And no matter what you measure power load to be, so long as a chip is rated for a certain TDP (and the TDP can't be reconfigured) you must design the hardware to accommodate it. You can't have something that works in nice scenarios then melts when a game starts using 100% of both cores. The only way they can offer configuration against is if they have thermal or power throttling.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
No it isn't. Pandora 1's battery capacity is about 15.5Wh. If your Pandora lasts 10 hours doing something that means it's consuming about 1.55W. That's for everything: SoC, display, and RAM will be the main consumers, and wifi if you're using it. It also includes waste due to inefficiency of power regulators. So the SoC part of that will only be a fraction of that. While in monstercameron's case he's not even account for the FCH that uses about 0.5W any time it's on in a Z-60 system (probably uses substantially more for his)
And this 0.5W for video claim is fishy because AMD themselves claim 1.57W for Z-60 during 720p playback (http://www.tweaktown...load/index.html). And I'm pretty confident they used the best numbers they could. So if monstercameron really measured this it's probably running a much weaker video.
TDP is a design parameter that's supposed to tell you how much heat the thing can generate under a reasonable high load scenario that the thing won't exceed (or at least won't exceed for long). Hence why it's "Thermal Design Power." In other words, it's the specification of how much heat the system needs to be prepared to tolerate. Not how little power you can use while doing things that you subjectively think the user most wants to do.
So if Hondo has a TDP of 4.5W your design must be prepared to handle 4.5W coming out from that chip.
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I got 3.3W power draw from my pandora with screen, USB, Wifi and BT all on full.
If the results described by monstercameron are in a real device, then they are comparable, surely.
If a system under high load can turn 9W of electricity into 9W of heat, yet a demanding 3D game (on the same system) only uses a third of that, then isn't something fishy afoot?
If the results described by monstercameron are in a real device, then they are comparable, surely.
If a system under high load can turn 9W of electricity into 9W of heat, yet a demanding 3D game (on the same system) only uses a third of that, then isn't something fishy afoot?
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Binky, if your Pandora uses 3.3W and lasts not even 5 hours on a full charge then most of what you're consuming isn't coming from the SoC. How are you supposed to call something representative for Pandora while using "USB" when USB can provide 2.5W to an external device just by itself (and that's after boosting the battery's 3.7V to 5V)? Are you running a lamp off of it like WizardStan was? And who is running the screen at full brightness with wifi and BT constantly stressed?
10 hours is the real number that people actually get while putting the CPU under a real load. Less if they bang on wifi (Pandora uses an old module that consumes a lot, wifi power consumption has gotten a lot better since then)
You have to get this idea out of your head that "demanding game" necessarily means you're maxing power consumption on the chip, especially when we don't even know just what this demanding game was. If you're looking at a landscape with no enemies on the screen while running at 11FPS (you know, like in his Rage video) you might not be using very much CPU time at all. Even the GPU isn't necessarily being fully taxed, if the game has a low TEX:ALU ratio and therefore struggling to put those 80 shader ALUs to work. Or is constantly stalling for external memory bandwidth.
These numbers are really annoying, yet everyone does it. I got this battery life while browsing the web! Okay, doing what? Browsing the web can mean pretty much anything. I got this battery life while watching a video! With what encoding?? I got this battery life while playing some game! What game? And what was the CPU load for all of this? Windows puts it in a nice little graph, take a screenshot!
Tell us MORE.
10 hours is the real number that people actually get while putting the CPU under a real load. Less if they bang on wifi (Pandora uses an old module that consumes a lot, wifi power consumption has gotten a lot better since then)
You have to get this idea out of your head that "demanding game" necessarily means you're maxing power consumption on the chip, especially when we don't even know just what this demanding game was. If you're looking at a landscape with no enemies on the screen while running at 11FPS (you know, like in his Rage video) you might not be using very much CPU time at all. Even the GPU isn't necessarily being fully taxed, if the game has a low TEX:ALU ratio and therefore struggling to put those 80 shader ALUs to work. Or is constantly stalling for external memory bandwidth.
These numbers are really annoying, yet everyone does it. I got this battery life while browsing the web! Okay, doing what? Browsing the web can mean pretty much anything. I got this battery life while watching a video! With what encoding?? I got this battery life while playing some game! What game? And what was the CPU load for all of this? Windows puts it in a nice little graph, take a screenshot!
Tell us MORE.
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monstercameron
Well-Known Member
i am sorry to mislead but the video is still uploading...it wasnt very scientific but those numbers were apu only not the whole system...the display on my netbook eats up ~20W and the other things on the board(assumption) eats up ~5W...videoo up soon
https://www.youtube.com/embed/QtXKser_Aok?feature=oembed
https://www.youtube.com/embed/QtXKser_Aok?feature=oembed
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Thanks for the video, that helps a lot. Although I'd still like to see CPU usage plots (and block speed) if you can provide that.
FCH is probably counted in "base", not CPU. Sunspider is strictly single threaded, so if you hit up to 3W while it's running you can expect at least 4-5W with both cores pegged (depending on what junk is running and how much uncore is taking).
Finally, going from C-50 to Z-60 definitely doesn't mean that your average power consumption goes down by half. Think about it.. it's the exact same CPU and GPU design on the exact same manufacturing process (TSMC 40G), any optimizations they made would be minimal. The gains in TDP came from limiting the worst case scenarios, probably from a) using a more limited memory controller that doesn't handle DDR3, B) cutting the number of PCIe links down, and c) if necessary, more aggressive throttling to maintain the limits in unusual cases. I definitely don't think your processor would normally hit 9W, although the netbook manufacturer probably still had to design for it. 9W definitely does not include the FCH, AMD provides a separate TDP for that (afaik it's around 2W for what's used in Ontario)
As I suspected, your video is more DVD quality than "HD".. would like to know more about what codec was used. For that quality bitrate and > 2GB file size is pretty big, which makes me think that it's not using a very aggressive encoding. People routinely run 720p and 1080p content on mobile devices now and I expect they'll want to on Pandora 2, so maybe you could do a demo of that - if you need material there's stuff you can get here: http://www.h264info.com/clips.html
3W for a game on high settings, while wandering around an empty environment. and some scripted cutscenes. Do you have frame rate numbers? CPU utilization? It's really hard for me to get an idea from youtube videos (I often see stuff that looks a lot smoother than it feels while playing it, because of camera blur and the fact that I don't personally have to directly interact with it)
All told, is a 2004 game really what you'd call demanding? Do you feel that this surpasses high end games on the best ARM tablet hardware? How about some power consumption tests with the most demanding emulators?
FCH is probably counted in "base", not CPU. Sunspider is strictly single threaded, so if you hit up to 3W while it's running you can expect at least 4-5W with both cores pegged (depending on what junk is running and how much uncore is taking).
Finally, going from C-50 to Z-60 definitely doesn't mean that your average power consumption goes down by half. Think about it.. it's the exact same CPU and GPU design on the exact same manufacturing process (TSMC 40G), any optimizations they made would be minimal. The gains in TDP came from limiting the worst case scenarios, probably from a) using a more limited memory controller that doesn't handle DDR3, B) cutting the number of PCIe links down, and c) if necessary, more aggressive throttling to maintain the limits in unusual cases. I definitely don't think your processor would normally hit 9W, although the netbook manufacturer probably still had to design for it. 9W definitely does not include the FCH, AMD provides a separate TDP for that (afaik it's around 2W for what's used in Ontario)
As I suspected, your video is more DVD quality than "HD".. would like to know more about what codec was used. For that quality bitrate and > 2GB file size is pretty big, which makes me think that it's not using a very aggressive encoding. People routinely run 720p and 1080p content on mobile devices now and I expect they'll want to on Pandora 2, so maybe you could do a demo of that - if you need material there's stuff you can get here: http://www.h264info.com/clips.html
3W for a game on high settings, while wandering around an empty environment. and some scripted cutscenes. Do you have frame rate numbers? CPU utilization? It's really hard for me to get an idea from youtube videos (I often see stuff that looks a lot smoother than it feels while playing it, because of camera blur and the fact that I don't personally have to directly interact with it)
All told, is a 2004 game really what you'd call demanding? Do you feel that this surpasses high end games on the best ARM tablet hardware? How about some power consumption tests with the most demanding emulators?
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monstercameron
Well-Known Member
it does support ddr3 1066 and ddr3L1066
from vlc mpeg 4 part 10 avc1, reso 1280x544, framerate 23.97, audio mpeg aac mp4a, content bitrate 4249 kb/s
will do updated video more scientific...running battery life test in ubuntu 12.10 now (mixed usage
i did try rage at the end...with 2 live ai enemies and cloth physics
will use amd utilization utility to break down cpu and gpu usage
you must be joking...farcry maxed out beats every mobile game out there!
)
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Okay, I have to look at what the specific differences were.. I talked about this with someone on S|A once, it was based on some old slides long before the Z-60 announcement.
Yeah that was a gaffe on my part, I forgot how ridiculous Far Cry was for its time. It's just really hard to discern image quality and settings from your video.
Being so GPU demanding 2004 further stresses my belief that it likes to push GPU a lot more than CPU.. GPU is easy to scale for utilization vs features, CPU isn't. If it used a ton of CPU by today's standards then in 2004 they'd really be eschewing their target market.
monstercameron
Well-Known Member
new video up soon...there were some oddities, after recalibration the base is using more power -possible due to setting windows from power saver to performance- and the cpu update speed felt slower...
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
I'm looking more into how Joulemeter works. I assumed that it was directly reading the values off of internal sensors that measure current off of voltage rails, but that's not the case.
From the manual (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/downloads/fe9e10c5-5c5b-450c-a674-daf55565f794/usermanual.pdf):
The calibration is done either by reading battery charge over time or values from a watt meter. Then it tries to measure the impact that certain activities has on this. The categories CPU, disk, monitor, and base correspond to actual tasks performed during calibration. You can see on page 9 the different measurements used by the power model. You might be able to read them back somehow.
Since the tool would have no way of measuring GPU load, and from what I can tell doesn't try to exercise the GPU anyway, I don't see how it could possibly be measuring the true power load of the APU while the GPU is heavily exercised. This leaves me with the impression that 3W is about the value you'd get JUST from heavily utilizing a single CPU core (consistent with the Sunspider numbers).
From the manual (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/downloads/fe9e10c5-5c5b-450c-a674-daf55565f794/usermanual.pdf):
The calibration is done either by reading battery charge over time or values from a watt meter. Then it tries to measure the impact that certain activities has on this. The categories CPU, disk, monitor, and base correspond to actual tasks performed during calibration. You can see on page 9 the different measurements used by the power model. You might be able to read them back somehow.
Since the tool would have no way of measuring GPU load, and from what I can tell doesn't try to exercise the GPU anyway, I don't see how it could possibly be measuring the true power load of the APU while the GPU is heavily exercised. This leaves me with the impression that 3W is about the value you'd get JUST from heavily utilizing a single CPU core (consistent with the Sunspider numbers).
This thread needs more popcorn.
But seriously thanks Exophase for putting in a silly amount of education into your posts. They may be wasted on Mr Cameroon but others such as myself surely enjoy learning from them.
And more seriously do you know what the crazy Germans here put on popcorn? Sugar! Sugar I tell you. The mind reels.
But seriously thanks Exophase for putting in a silly amount of education into your posts. They may be wasted on Mr Cameroon but others such as myself surely enjoy learning from them.
And more seriously do you know what the crazy Germans here put on popcorn? Sugar! Sugar I tell you. The mind reels.
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