Granitehead
Advanced Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2009
- Messages
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That's too much latin for my taste.
(though I guess I understand the general sense of it)
(though I guess I understand the general sense of it)
The Logo Poll
- Thread starter EvilDragon
- Start date
- Status
levi
Still fresh, damnit!
I think a logo needs to work in b&w as well as working in colour. If it's in relief (or embossed, like Pandora) on the lid it won't have colours there. So voting on ones that work without colour seems valuable to me.
I don't particularly care for the above design over number 1 or the other way round. ED's version is a bit more cute, the original is more flame-like. These four are the four that ED picked though, and his opinion should carry a lot of weight, but if you still want the original version vote for number 1 then argue that it should be taller, and see if you can convince people.
I don't particularly care for the above design over number 1 or the other way round. ED's version is a bit more cute, the original is more flame-like. These four are the four that ED picked though, and his opinion should carry a lot of weight, but if you still want the original version vote for number 1 then argue that it should be taller, and see if you can convince people.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Why cant it carry a lot of weight after the community gets their say in matters?
Its not the "original" version, because the original version is a totally different design, its an original take on a similar concept. compare
to
from http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15712-logo-discussion/page-4#entry317504 I think he might have meant to say #3, but you never know. One of my designs was inspired by ascii plaintext art by _wb_ Its just when your brain clicks, there might be a lot of things spinning around, and then one thing aligns the cogwheels enough to see clearly.
Inspiration is from one thing to another, sure.. Just as nr 2 is inspired by the debian and dreamcast logos.
Sswams flame/URL] is a variant of the other, but i don't want the other, so i wont vote for a car which i think has 3 wheels knowing others dont, knowing this might mr.bean the whole process into a ditch.
I dont know what
I think option 1 was done a terrible injustice, because it doesnt look like a P and A, much less without colours, which is why the creator (gadgetoid) put it in context, or with the designated font next to it.
Simplifying like that is a known trick in logo design, but you cant pull it off from one display to the other/URL]. And also it doesnt work at random, you need a plan. Which is where i think communication present in the former, failed in terms of the latter. The middle one is the one that could be on a lid. Having latin letters that dont look the same up and down is a design flaw on a lid.
And that is why implementation and information is important.
I think sswams logo variant would look good centered, and it can survive a flip, with one led (?) on just the middle part. But is the middle part a ridge, does the led pulsate in a fiery way? It better be possible to turn it off, because we dont want that discussion again, and its silly to turn away people for blazing up a logo.
Ive done casebuilds for over 10 years, just putting light somewhere is a good idea for a while, and then it becomes embarrassing*¹, and thats how you learn to do it, and do it right. There are light designers whos entire job is to figure things like that out.
(*¹ see: 1. loud fans or 2. wobbly windows, (if you dont believe me, try it))
We don't have that, what we do have, is enough knowledge to try. What designers do, in companies, is have design panels. Which is essentially what the logo discussion thread was, where ideas are sourced and worked with, and then you display them to a test audience that resembles your target demographic. That is _exactly_ what we have done, and can do, for free. One without the other is pissing against the wind at windstill. (i totally made that saying up)
This vote is just a decider between the two, (2 and 4) because an exclusive disclosed vote is a vote on one of the two candidates that matter, or a waste of ones vote.
Its not the "original" version, because the original version is a totally different design, its an original take on a similar concept. compare
Inspiration is from one thing to another, sure.. Just as nr 2 is inspired by the debian and dreamcast logos.
Sswams flame/URL] is a variant of the other, but i don't want the other, so i wont vote for a car which i think has 3 wheels knowing others dont, knowing this might mr.bean the whole process into a ditch.
I dont know what
really means.
I think option 1 was done a terrible injustice, because it doesnt look like a P and A, much less without colours, which is why the creator (gadgetoid) put it in context, or with the designated font next to it.
Simplifying like that is a known trick in logo design, but you cant pull it off from one display to the other/URL]. And also it doesnt work at random, you need a plan. Which is where i think communication present in the former, failed in terms of the latter. The middle one is the one that could be on a lid. Having latin letters that dont look the same up and down is a design flaw on a lid.
And that is why implementation and information is important.
I think sswams logo variant would look good centered, and it can survive a flip, with one led (?) on just the middle part. But is the middle part a ridge, does the led pulsate in a fiery way? It better be possible to turn it off, because we dont want that discussion again, and its silly to turn away people for blazing up a logo.
Ive done casebuilds for over 10 years, just putting light somewhere is a good idea for a while, and then it becomes embarrassing*¹, and thats how you learn to do it, and do it right. There are light designers whos entire job is to figure things like that out.
(*¹ see: 1. loud fans or 2. wobbly windows, (if you dont believe me, try it))
We don't have that, what we do have, is enough knowledge to try. What designers do, in companies, is have design panels. Which is essentially what the logo discussion thread was, where ideas are sourced and worked with, and then you display them to a test audience that resembles your target demographic. That is _exactly_ what we have done, and can do, for free. One without the other is pissing against the wind at windstill. (i totally made that saying up)
This vote is just a decider between the two, (2 and 4) because an exclusive disclosed vote is a vote on one of the two candidates that matter, or a waste of ones vote.
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levi
Still fresh, damnit!
I'm not saying the community shouldn't be able to express their opinion and for that to have some weight, but I still give ED the right to veto any design as he's the one that's going to have to design the lid with it in and assemble thousands of lids and keymats with that design on.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
I agree, because its his money on the line in the end. (And Askarus is going to put his fair share of lids together i imagine.)
I should think everyone agrees ED has final say, just as much as fair voting cant hurt with respect to how everyone agrees. Its valuable information. Learning is interesting.
Out of these 4, or really, just 2 and 4, people are undecided, or have differing opinions. We know that now, what more could we possibly know?
Get _all_ the information on the table, and then decide. See for example how introducing light isnt just a matter of flicking on a switch, its _part of the design_ if you pretend it isnt, it will look like it isnt.
Some effort has been spent by me to find out how the designs fare with lighting:, but without info its like licking your finger and turning it to the wind to decide the trajectory of the bow you are going to shoot in half an hour.
Edit: To explain partly, if you start with centering a design on the middle of the lid, and then placing 1 light-diode in the middle, what happens then?
From prior opinion exchange i know black was the case option preferred by most.
So its most definately not going to be translucent black, which is just tinted acryl, plexi, lexan or similar
We assume its going to be translucent logo black lightblocking case.
What you get then is an off-center light source with many of the designs.
Light doesnt even out by a radius, it follows said path of translucent material, which breaks if the continuity does.
Uncentering the diode therefore needs to be done on all the designs in this poll, as they dont have any logospace in center, (maybe with the exception of 3 because its so close together). You can see yourselves how it plays out.
Light will taper off at a rate of distance traveled. How you want to play this, is up for discussion, but increasing power usage on the led is a bad option.
If the material is fully translucent, you will see the LED, possibly parts of the cables leading up to it. That is not good.
Speaking of cables, if they cant be borrowed from the screen cable, you need extra cabeling through the hinge, and cabeling through the hinge is bad. (speaker cables for example was a manual and tedious error prone operation, they are now in the base unit)
An option is to use the backlighting of the panel directly, very easy, cant be turned off (unless you want the screen off) easy to get uneven lighting on the front panel though, so beware.
A nice way of doing lighting is frosting/rubbing up the underside of the clear, and then having the outside shiney. Consider though that the outside is then prone to scratching.
Light travels very well in the rubbing, as opposed to just shining through. It becomes a semi transflective lit logo, which is what i assume is the desired effect.
Functionally, the only time you really see the led, and it does something, is when you turn off the decice, and close the lid before it halts to shutdown, then you can (since there is no fan-noise) rest assured that the device is off when the logo is.
There are leds for that already, seen from the outside, so this point is scratched.
An option is to put all the leds in the lid, but then you need different colours, and its russian yule-event right away. The status LEDs in closed position could potentially steal some of the focus, as colour draws more attention than light, so tahts something to consider too.
We assume it is only an aestetic and branding geschafft.
To fit a led behind the screen one might have to extrude material to slot it in. The danger here is applying (especially uneven) pressure to the backside of the screen as it is fully assembled, then you get (uneven) light-bleeding, which is bad.
TL;DR people seem to want professional looking things. Lighting the logo is risky in that manner, because it isnt so close to home, and if done, it needs to be right more than anything.
TL;DR2: I could go _on and on_ with speculations on case material, tactile feel of logo, branding unity, etc, but it would be best if i knew enough not to ask or wonder.
Edit2: There was some vague guidelines, which is ok enough to begin with, and some information one could pick up about the material of the case having something to do with carbon, carbon is black naturally, so we designed logos that work in negative space.
Seems convenient now that there is led information thrown in.
I am of the opinion that a logo should not be, just any, it should be one that ties in with the design and name of a device. So intrinsic to the device, design language and name that it couldnt be anything but. To know the rounding of the corners it needs to match with the corners on the device itself. Thats why you need an idea of what the hole case to look like, before you put the whole idea into a symbiosis. I only know partly what the case will look like, thats not good enough.
OUYAs whole stichick seems to be their ABXY cluster, i dont know how that came to be, but we must aim to do even better.
And we did, some logos went with a dragon theme, thats difficult, but at least then you know, also in what naming conventions to vote for. Dragonbox has something to do with pyra, fire, so im amazed at how well it all turned out.
The logo vote and the naming however isnt separate issues. Just as one cant decide a number of buttons and then make a good button layout based on it. Its a catch 22, cant have one without the other.
For everything that works, there are 100 things that dont, in turn drawing exponentially many more variations into the mix. If there isnt a fair vote then that is a shame in vasted effort, and also a denial of how things work.
That is what design is, making something make sense out of the unknown. Accounting for everything.
I should think everyone agrees ED has final say, just as much as fair voting cant hurt with respect to how everyone agrees. Its valuable information. Learning is interesting.
Out of these 4, or really, just 2 and 4, people are undecided, or have differing opinions. We know that now, what more could we possibly know?
Get _all_ the information on the table, and then decide. See for example how introducing light isnt just a matter of flicking on a switch, its _part of the design_ if you pretend it isnt, it will look like it isnt.
Some effort has been spent by me to find out how the designs fare with lighting:, but without info its like licking your finger and turning it to the wind to decide the trajectory of the bow you are going to shoot in half an hour.
Edit: To explain partly, if you start with centering a design on the middle of the lid, and then placing 1 light-diode in the middle, what happens then?
From prior opinion exchange i know black was the case option preferred by most.
So its most definately not going to be translucent black, which is just tinted acryl, plexi, lexan or similar
We assume its going to be translucent logo black lightblocking case.
What you get then is an off-center light source with many of the designs.
Light doesnt even out by a radius, it follows said path of translucent material, which breaks if the continuity does.
Uncentering the diode therefore needs to be done on all the designs in this poll, as they dont have any logospace in center, (maybe with the exception of 3 because its so close together). You can see yourselves how it plays out.
Light will taper off at a rate of distance traveled. How you want to play this, is up for discussion, but increasing power usage on the led is a bad option.
If the material is fully translucent, you will see the LED, possibly parts of the cables leading up to it. That is not good.
Speaking of cables, if they cant be borrowed from the screen cable, you need extra cabeling through the hinge, and cabeling through the hinge is bad. (speaker cables for example was a manual and tedious error prone operation, they are now in the base unit)
An option is to use the backlighting of the panel directly, very easy, cant be turned off (unless you want the screen off) easy to get uneven lighting on the front panel though, so beware.
A nice way of doing lighting is frosting/rubbing up the underside of the clear, and then having the outside shiney. Consider though that the outside is then prone to scratching.
Light travels very well in the rubbing, as opposed to just shining through. It becomes a semi transflective lit logo, which is what i assume is the desired effect.
Functionally, the only time you really see the led, and it does something, is when you turn off the decice, and close the lid before it halts to shutdown, then you can (since there is no fan-noise) rest assured that the device is off when the logo is.
There are leds for that already, seen from the outside, so this point is scratched.
An option is to put all the leds in the lid, but then you need different colours, and its russian yule-event right away. The status LEDs in closed position could potentially steal some of the focus, as colour draws more attention than light, so tahts something to consider too.
We assume it is only an aestetic and branding geschafft.
To fit a led behind the screen one might have to extrude material to slot it in. The danger here is applying (especially uneven) pressure to the backside of the screen as it is fully assembled, then you get (uneven) light-bleeding, which is bad.
TL;DR people seem to want professional looking things. Lighting the logo is risky in that manner, because it isnt so close to home, and if done, it needs to be right more than anything.
TL;DR2: I could go _on and on_ with speculations on case material, tactile feel of logo, branding unity, etc, but it would be best if i knew enough not to ask or wonder.
Edit2: There was some vague guidelines, which is ok enough to begin with, and some information one could pick up about the material of the case having something to do with carbon, carbon is black naturally, so we designed logos that work in negative space.
Seems convenient now that there is led information thrown in.
I am of the opinion that a logo should not be, just any, it should be one that ties in with the design and name of a device. So intrinsic to the device, design language and name that it couldnt be anything but. To know the rounding of the corners it needs to match with the corners on the device itself. Thats why you need an idea of what the hole case to look like, before you put the whole idea into a symbiosis. I only know partly what the case will look like, thats not good enough.
OUYAs whole stichick seems to be their ABXY cluster, i dont know how that came to be, but we must aim to do even better.
And we did, some logos went with a dragon theme, thats difficult, but at least then you know, also in what naming conventions to vote for. Dragonbox has something to do with pyra, fire, so im amazed at how well it all turned out.
The logo vote and the naming however isnt separate issues. Just as one cant decide a number of buttons and then make a good button layout based on it. Its a catch 22, cant have one without the other.
For everything that works, there are 100 things that dont, in turn drawing exponentially many more variations into the mix. If there isnt a fair vote then that is a shame in vasted effort, and also a denial of how things work.
That is what design is, making something make sense out of the unknown. Accounting for everything.
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Indeed, this logo alone are more agressive than n°4. But because it is more "horizontale", it contrast less with the lid shape. So it would look less like a foreign element.So, weird. IMO this seem even closer to the complaints you where saying.IMO a good version of that logo could be done.
Good work, very well balanced, way less agressive.
Then I can't really see a flame in that. Like the logo was taken and then smooshed together.
As well as plain looking on top of that.
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jorlinn
Member
This was really hard. The cleanliness of 1 appealing, but the font does not fit somehow. I chose 4 instead. If this sign is to be illuminated, please don't use an RGB led if this will cause delays ;-)
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Indeed, this logo alone are more agressive than n°4. But because it is more "horizontale", it contrast less with the lid shape. So it would look less like a foreign element.So, weird. IMO this seem even closer to the complaints you where saying.Then I can't really see a flame in that. Like the logo was taken and then smooshed together.IMO a good version of that logo could be done.
Good work, very well balanced, way less agressive.
As well as plain looking on top of that.
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The lowercase pyra fit well.
I thought about a surfboard brand. But it is well made IMO.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Yes its very well made, just like any number of other others that are a variation over the same theme. I'm sure it was an original idea, but unfortunately that doesn't matter.
We aren't first to the table in this, we can't order what other people have got, and we cant take what they have got off their plate.
Edit: I think of it like this, if it can be a good idea then others can have it too, a great idea is needed at this point, and we need to turn the tables.
We have not got the funds, we havent got the education, but we have what it takes to not go to the table where we are not invited.
I have the will and the power in me to try and make a new table, our own, were we serve ourselves the best we can produce.
We aren't first to the table in this, we can't order what other people have got, and we cant take what they have got off their plate.
Edit: I think of it like this, if it can be a good idea then others can have it too, a great idea is needed at this point, and we need to turn the tables.
We have not got the funds, we havent got the education, but we have what it takes to not go to the table where we are not invited.
I have the will and the power in me to try and make a new table, our own, were we serve ourselves the best we can produce.
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That surfboard logo isn't by me. Sure we can find a new good idea but I have not really tried to find one because I'm not able to achieve it. Also ED chose these 4 logos and unless you find something fantastic you will not change it.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
I found something fantastic, and i learnt something fantastic, its here http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15712-logo-discussion/page-2#entry317252 lazerbeams, binky, _wb_ fzero, iprice, KodeIn, sswam, spinghed, Gadgetoid,
and after that the logo from Hans http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15712-logo-discussion/page-6#entry318071
and as of recently nr 11 from erico http://boards.openpandora.org/uploads/post-3822-0-84761600-1394746018.jpg from http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15874-logos-from-erico/#entry323491
after that Asatiir http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14915-finding-a-proper-name-and-logo/page-77#entry325557/URL]
And many others in between before or after.
I cant express how much i love the passion these people have for what they do, and its a travesty it isn't represented in this vote. I will never forget what you taught me, and i am honored to be in your community.
and after that the logo from Hans http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15712-logo-discussion/page-6#entry318071
and as of recently nr 11 from erico http://boards.openpandora.org/uploads/post-3822-0-84761600-1394746018.jpg from http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15874-logos-from-erico/#entry323491
after that Asatiir http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14915-finding-a-proper-name-and-logo/page-77#entry325557/URL]
And many others in between before or after.
I cant express how much i love the passion these people have for what they do, and its a travesty it isn't represented in this vote. I will never forget what you taught me, and i am honored to be in your community.
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Indeed
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levi
Still fresh, damnit!
I still love that boxy one F-Zero did and will almost certainly be using it as a backdrop on my Pyra for some time, but ED says he went through those threads and that specific design's been posted at least twice (and I saw the development of it, so it filled that thread for quite a while). Are you saying ED hasn't seen it? He's already given reasons why he selected the four designs he's selected, and I can immediately see why that rules out F-Zero's design, and a lot of the other designs you're carping over.
TLDR; we need to move on; shut the hell up!
@jorlinn ED stated on the first page that the labels were just thrown on at the last minute. Vote for the design, not the text - the text is just there to give you an idea what it'll look like, and will likely be changed.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Bootsplash or screensaver is its intended use. Thats how i see it, its a one way design and it makes use of colours. You cant blame the idea for not fitting everywhere, thats not what the idea is, nor is there anything that does everything equally well.
Printing one idea everywhere is not optimal. Its boring, its overdone, and its a low artform. Its the me too, that nobody really wants to listen to.
For a lid design the
Then again i think having to change them into negative space sort of takes away something.
I think they are competitive designs to what is on the board, but im no expert, id like to hear EDs opinion just as much as i would like to see the community opinion on the matter.
If it was down to me i would have a much harder time sorting the options if it wasn't for the led idea. And some designs don't call for it. The light tapering could be phenomenal on the first, resembling rather how i always though the colouring should have been done, but who knows.
For good decisions to be made, one cannot always agree, just as much as one person cant possibly know all of everything. ED didnt make these designs, so why cut the discourse short of everyone learning something?
I've learnt something from you today, maybe you can learn something from me?
There is a difference between selling marketing space and making an art of something.
Show me the company you think does logos well and you may be surprised to know they have more than one visual concept.
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levi
Still fresh, damnit!
Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about other suggestions for the main logo, the one the poll's for choosing. I guess we could use a different logo for the boot screen, and indeed I'd love to see F-Zero's design all done up as an animated GIF, although at the same time I think something that tied together the hardware and the software that used the same logo as on the lid might be a better default.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
I'm talking about whats on the lid, thats what im concerned with, thats what ive tried to do a lot of, and failed a lot of.
I like to try as hard as i can to do what i can, its the result that counts, not my popularity. If the result is many people weren't acknowledged by the powers to be, my
role is to bring that to the attention of ED by being fair to the end goal:
Getting the best possible design on the lid, the magic.
I think that happens with a fair and unbiased vote, not alone, but certainly not without it.
One can design all day, but without information, the levels of finish that provides is unattainable.
Maybe there is a great master plan that i don't know about, but why shouldn't I?
Im left thinking this is all incompatible with community, and design work at its core.
Maybe its just me, maybe everyone else sees it, maybe im the only one who cares this much.
Repetition of something like nr 2 from this poll is not far fetched to what it is, an authoritarian brutal design.
Does that mean you have to put it everywhere? What if it makes more sense to put this on the lid?
Squint and zoom for better effect.
Its the propaganda method of display vs the gallery.
What i tried to do above is with with all limits given, the most. I like the focal attention on the circles, also how it looks like two people holding together, the simplest possible imagery of community.
Its more fluid as the moebius ties together better in itself and with the rest, and the outward pointing elements, which aren't as sharp and aggressive.
I dont know that it couldnt hold its own as whatever the intention for "main logo" was, so why not?
Im at a loss with understanding why that option isn't explored? Maybe the one who made it was told?
Which method of presentation do people prefer?
I like to try as hard as i can to do what i can, its the result that counts, not my popularity. If the result is many people weren't acknowledged by the powers to be, my
role is to bring that to the attention of ED by being fair to the end goal:
Getting the best possible design on the lid, the magic.
I think that happens with a fair and unbiased vote, not alone, but certainly not without it.
One can design all day, but without information, the levels of finish that provides is unattainable.
Maybe there is a great master plan that i don't know about, but why shouldn't I?
Im left thinking this is all incompatible with community, and design work at its core.
Maybe its just me, maybe everyone else sees it, maybe im the only one who cares this much.
Repetition of something like nr 2 from this poll is not far fetched to what it is, an authoritarian brutal design.
Does that mean you have to put it everywhere? What if it makes more sense to put this on the lid?
Squint and zoom for better effect.Its the propaganda method of display vs the gallery.
What i tried to do above is with with all limits given, the most. I like the focal attention on the circles, also how it looks like two people holding together, the simplest possible imagery of community.
Its more fluid as the moebius ties together better in itself and with the rest, and the outward pointing elements, which aren't as sharp and aggressive.
I dont know that it couldnt hold its own as whatever the intention for "main logo" was, so why not?
Im at a loss with understanding why that option isn't explored? Maybe the one who made it was told?
Which method of presentation do people prefer?
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