The Keyboard


Endurion

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Seeing the keyboard with no more room for other symbols I do hope someone will code a good calender/notbook with an easy way to write non english symbols.
Perhaps by pressing the gamingbutton x you could rotate between letters like a mobilephone does. So one could easily write letters like åäö also. (yes I´m swedish :p )

I mean, for example.... while pressing controler x you could press the A button several times to shift between "a-å-ä-æ" and so on...
Think many people would like to easily write down stuff in their own language...

For english speaking people.... imagine a keyboard without y w and i for example... and try to write something....

"vhat do vou thlnk...? qulte hard to vrlte a good looklng sentence."
quite annoying right?

Anyway this was just a thought, first I thought that it would be nice to add the letters as FN letters, but as I saw that it was already quite crowded I thought of this solution instead.
So what do you guys think? Does anyone have any better idea?

Edit: If you think it is a good idea..... should there be a symbol showing the key to be a "rotation of letters button" on or near it?
 

gbouilland

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What about having Shift and Fn keys on both sides of the keyboard !

Prerequisite : be able to differentiate between 2-keystrokes combinations depending on whether they are pressed simultaneously or sequentially, e.g. :
- Hold Modifier key and press Key (used in Ctrl-C for example) thereafter noted as Modifier key-Key
- Press Modifier key and release then press Key (= sticky mode) thereafter noted as Modifier key+Key

Solution : merge Shift an Fn keys into one Shift/Fn key on both sides of the keyboard which behaves one way or the other accordingly to the mode used, sticky or not, i.e. :
- use Shift/Fn-Key for Shift Key (non-sticky mode)
- use Shift/Fn+Key for Fn Key (sticky mode)

- press both Shift/Fn simultaneously for Caps Lock
- press both Shift/Fn in succession for Fn Lock
- press either Shift/Fn key to exit Caps/Fn Lock
- press twice the same Shift/Fn key to exit Caps/Fn Lock

Options should be available to decide :
- whether sticky mode corresponds to Fn or Shift mode
- if Fn Lock is possible or not
- what occurs if you press twice the same Shift/Fn key (the above being a suggestion at the most)

Layout : Shift/Fn keys should be at either end of bottom or second row of the keyboard
- bottom row : more accessible, less change overall
- second row : usual Shift layout, moves Enter key to the bottom right corner

Further thoughts :
- The obvious advantage is that you can easily access the whole keyboard in both Shift and Fn modes without crossing your thumbs
- The main inconvenient being to get used to this way of typing, which doesn't strike me as such a big problem
- In all cases, Caps and Fn lock indicators would help a lot (either software or hardware, SD cards indicators come to my mind)

Consider it then let me know what you think about it and whether or not the prerequisite is even possible :)

Edit: Of course, this is compatible with previous discussions, notably Cosurgi and Kagato layouts
 

greendots

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Endurion, the compose and altGr buttons will allow you to do that. They will be on the keyboard, we just aren't certain where :)

---

Excellent Kagato! Would it be possible to have a single currency button? The user can choose which they will likely use the most and the rest wouldn't be very hard, even if it has to be written out: ###Euro, ###USD, ###AU, ###yen etc.
 

captainpotato

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I've been lurking for a while, and whilst it may well be too late, I've got a suggestion or two about the layout. Using Kagato's layout (as cosurgi reproduced here: viewtopic.php?p=829#p829)

1. Given how small the keyboard is, having the backspace key readily accessible seems to me to be a priority - I'd map it to the right shoulder button. Move the <alt> function to where <delete> currently is. I had been debating about whether to move <fn> to where <delete> currently is, and <alt> to where <fn> is, but I've decided against that.

2. Left shoulder button - the <shift> key could be mapped to it. Of the non-standard keys, the <shift> function seems to me to be the most commonly used one. Put the <ctrl> key to where the <shift> currently is. It puts it in a spot that isn't unnatural for a <ctrl> key then.

Regardless, Kagato's layout is generally the most intuitive, IMO. I realise that moving the <alt> and <ctrl> functions may make it more difficult for non-English languages, but overall, I'd imagine that my proposal would be more useful than slightly easier access to non-English characters.
 

greendots

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Here is another, similar to kagato's most recent and preferred layout.

pandora_kb_greendot9-1.png


This one has Fn keys a little closer to normal position then kagato's.
There are extra media buttons at the expense of a single alternate currency. From left to right they are: play/pause, skip track, launch browser, launch email. At this point we have all keys on a standard qwerty-us keyboard so I think its acceptable to have these keys.

I was thinking about adding the accented 'n' for Spanish and German 'ss' letter but it would make capital and lowercase typing awkward and inconsistent.
 

polkunus

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Endurion said:
Seeing the keyboard with no more room for other symbols I do hope someone will code a good calender/notbook with an easy way to write non english symbols.
Perhaps by pressing the gamingbutton x you could rotate between letters like a mobilephone does. So one could easily write letters like åäö also. (yes I´m swedish :p )

I mean, for example.... while pressing controler x you could press the A button several times to shift between "a-å-ä-æ" and so on...
Think many people would like to easily write down stuff in their own language...

For english speaking people.... imagine a keyboard without y w and i for example... and try to write something....

"vhat do vou thlnk...? qulte hard to vrlte a good looklng sentence."
quite annoying right?

Anyway this was just a thought, first I thought that it would be nice to add the letters as FN letters, but as I saw that it was already quite crowded I thought of this solution instead.
So what do you guys think? Does anyone have any better idea?

Edit: If you think it is a good idea..... should there be a symbol showing the key to be a "rotation of letters button" on or near it?

okay... since I'm half Japanese; can i get katakana, hiragana, kanji on my keyboard as well?
 

Etinin

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polkunus said:
Endurion said:
Seeing the keyboard with no more room for other symbols I do hope someone will code a good calender/notbook with an easy way to write non english symbols.
Perhaps by pressing the gamingbutton x you could rotate between letters like a mobilephone does. So one could easily write letters like åäö also. (yes I´m swedish :p )

I mean, for example.... while pressing controler x you could press the A button several times to shift between "a-å-ä-æ" and so on...
Think many people would like to easily write down stuff in their own language...

For english speaking people.... imagine a keyboard without y w and i for example... and try to write something....

"vhat do vou thlnk...? qulte hard to vrlte a good looklng sentence."
quite annoying right?

Anyway this was just a thought, first I thought that it would be nice to add the letters as FN letters, but as I saw that it was already quite crowded I thought of this solution instead.
So what do you guys think? Does anyone have any better idea?

Edit: If you think it is a good idea..... should there be a symbol showing the key to be a "rotation of letters button" on or near it?

okay... since I'm half Japanese; can i get katakana, hiragana, kanji on my keyboard as well?
You can get whatever you want in the OS, but it won't be printed on the keyboard. Perhaps you could get some stickers that would fit on the Pandora keyboard.
 

cosurgi

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bronek said:
Kagato said:
We're back on this, huh? :)

Actually, this was my last layout:
(number and top row Fn swapped)
http://studiokagato.com/downloads/pandora/pandora_keyboard_v3_plain.png
I like almost everything about it, but lack of Ctrl and Alt keys is a showstopper to me. Unless there is some way around it (like "orange keys" proposed by Cosurgi)?
In all Kagato's layouts Alt and Ctrl are on shoulder buttons L & R. The labels "Alt" and "Ctrl" are not printed on them, because shoulder buttons are behind (on the back of the case behind and below of the lid). That was the major point of that last voting:
  • "Alt" & "Ctrl" on shoulder buttons as some thumb-typers find more comfortable, AND ".", "," are base keys.
  • "Alt" & "Ctrl" are base keys which is more similar to common keyboards AND ".", "," are Fn keys.
 

cosurgi

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polkunus said:
okay... since I'm half Japanese; can i get katakana, hiragana, kanji on my keyboard as well?
That's the prupose of "Fn lock" key. When you Fn lock, you switch into alternative keyboard mapping: kanji, katakama, cyryllic - depending on whatever stickers you have put on the keys.
 

peca

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Hi Kagato! I guess that !@#$%^&*()-= chars are better on QWERTYUIOP keys, as in previous versions. Actually, It's good idea, haven't standard nonshifted keys as shifted on Pandora. But I vote for drop out others currency symbols (EUR, GPB and YEN).
 

greendots

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It would be difficult to make any thing professional looking. At least we have power for the leds build on to the pcb for the possibility though. Some day it may be a kit.
 

j.pickens

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A USB powered light strip of some design could work, externally mounted, thin to allow you to shut the case.
Of course, the screen will illuminate the keyboard, somewhat.
 

kagato

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bronek said:
I like almost everything about it, but lack of Ctrl and Alt keys is a showstopper to me. Unless there is some way around it (like "orange keys" proposed by Cosurgi)?
Ctrl and Alt are mapped to L & R shoulder buttons.
They were labelled on the original diagram but not on the last revision... I guess I have to make another image <_<

cosurgi said:
polkunus said:
okay... since I'm half Japanese; can i get katakana, hiragana, kanji on my keyboard as well?
That's the prupose of "Fn lock" key. When you Fn lock, you switch into alternative keyboard mapping: kanji, katakama, cyryllic - depending on whatever stickers you have put on the keys.
Actually that's the purpose of the AltGr key; Fn Lock just lets you type multiple symbols without pressing Fn each time.
Switching to an alternate charset (rather than typing single characters) could be done three ways:
- Fn -> AltGr(hold) -> [typing...] -- fairly easy with shoulder mapping
- Fn -> AltGr AltGr (lock) -> [typing...] -> Fn -> AltGr (unlock)
- Set AltGr to be a keyboard toggle in settings; Fn -> AltGr -> [typing...] -> Fn -> AltGr

peca said:
Hi Kagato! I guess that !@#$%^&*()-= chars are better on QWERTYUIOP keys, as in previous versions.
Yeah, I still prefer that placement for the punctuation for ease of typing. But to make good use of the number keys requires doing nonstandard things with Shift, and in hindsight that could cause some problems for ported software. In this layout, all symbols are either a Fn, or the same Shift as a standard keyboard. Not as good ergonomically, but better for software.
(Oh. I see that was supposed to be strikeout text. Never mind then :))
But I vote for drop out others currency symbols (EUR, GPB and YEN).
They're not essential, and could be accessed by AltGr; but that leaves three empty spots for Fn keys. Only a few blanks would look odd, and waste useful space. By including them it helps indicate the device caters to international users, and even if you don't speak another language you might sometimes need to refer to foreign currency :)
But seriously, if you can think of three functions more useful to more people than currency, I'm open to suggestions.
 

polkunus

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MDave said:
I've become somewhat spoilt by my illuminated keyboard :p how hard would it be to mod the pandora keyboard with leds?


you should ask ryan0 about this
 

felixxx

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Hi all, I'm new here and this is my first post :)

Anyways, right to the point: Every single one of the above proposed solutions is, obviously, a hell of a compromise, which won't satisfy everyone. So, could we, perhaps in the next generation, have something like removable modular keyboard? This would also open new possibilities for third party manufacturers and applications.

I could definitely use one without any gaming controls at all.
 

Bronek

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felixxx said:
So, could we, perhaps in the next generation, have something like removable modular keyboard? .

Hey, I wanted to propose this as well :D Regular USB socket in strategic position + mechnical sockets around to keep the thing in place. When on the way I would use a tiny weeny folded (or even not) keyboard bundled with the device, and whilst at home something more substantial. This implies that the device would have some builtin buttons, possible ... gaming ones, like original GP32.

Mind you, I have no idea whether or not this is a good idea, as I never had game console (not even "big" one) and gaming is not the reason why I ordered Pandora.
 
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