The Keyboard


Grench

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cosurgi said:
Grench said:
Maybe I'll try to find that paper mock-up PDF file and try to Homer Simpson myself one.
Someone on old forum made a really good mockup, but unfortunately I don't know/remember URL.

But I have another simple and stupid paper mockup (and excuse me "mache" in the name, I'm too lazy to rename that file): http://cosurgi.googlepages.com/paper-mache-pandora.pdf It's is using keyborad from Pandora render. Of course for testing you would need to replace the image with another keybord from this thread.
If you're using that to 'feel' the machine, be sure to use something to weight down the base. I used my Zodiac, but anything of the approximate weight and distribution would work. How your hands will hold a super-light item (sheet of paper) and one that has some weight to it can differ somewhat.
 

TJSomething

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I can't figure out how one would press Fn-Lock without sticky keys.
I don't want to have to use sticky keys; it bugs me if I have to use sticky keys.
 

Grench

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TJSomething said:
I can't figure out how one would press Fn-Lock without sticky keys.
I don't want to have to use sticky keys; it bugs me if I have to use sticky keys.
My best bet on how that would work...
Pushing Fn once puts the next keystroke in "Fn" mode. Pushing Fn a second time locks the keyboard into "Fn" mode for multiple keystrokes.

Keeping in mind how diminutive the keyboard really is, I don't see how you would be able to get around on it without sticky functions. I think we could get away with a non-sticky shift button if the designers put 'shift' on the long spot where 'space' was originally envisioned to be. In my layout with space being the lower right normal button, it and 'enter' would be the only buttons that would be overly difficult to hold shift and hit. This has the added advantage of moving 'Fn' over to the left side where 'Shift' was and getting it out of the way from being hit by accident.
 

peca

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Thanx to google (archive):

Homebrew Pandora Mock-up, Build your own Pandora for pennies! (sort of):
I knocked up a quick mock-up of the Pandora to visualise a couple of mods I'm thinking of making when the real thing arrives. On the off-chance that others would find it useful, I thought I'd post the results. I've made a colour version I intend to print on card, but here's a photo of my ink-saving (and rather flimsy) paper prototype.

(IMG:http://www.cosam.org/pandora/mockup.jpg)

It's made from two nets which look like this:

(IMG:http://www.cosam.org/pandora/pandora-net1.png) (IMG:http://www.cosam.org/pandora/pandora-net2.png)

Those so inclined can download the PDF version [43KB] or replace the .pdf extension with .vsd for the original (Visio) drawings [188KB].

Although the size of the device itself and the screen should be correct, I can't vouch for any other dimensions as they're eyeballed from the available renders.

Have fun,

Steve
 

polkunus

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Grench said:
OK, so I'm not a graphic artist.

I gave it some serious thought as I put this together. I didn't change your merged view much.

Having Fn and Fn lock are critical. I can think of lots of games that interactively use numeric keys (pretty much every FPS as gun selection), several that use function keys (Neverwinter Nights), but few that use both the function and numeric at the same time as their 'important' buttons. I.e. important to interactive gameplay and not just save/restore and the like.

So, having the top row switch numeric/function and stay that way until told to do otherwise - highly important.

However, I would like to see a way to split the Fn reaction between the numeric and alpha portions of the board. The reason for this is that games that use mostly function keys still use letters on the keyboard. So, to do this, I propose that the Fn key work as...
Fn momentary = switch everything to Fn shifted or back.
Fn held + Shift = switch only the numerics and O and P to F1 through F12. Fn held + Shift undoes this.

I printed out your keyboard. The Fn key down on the bottom right is going to get hit a lot unintentionally. The space bar, since it is most often used as activate/interact with/jump wouldn't be as annoying in accidental activation compared to a button that changes the interface mapping.

I rearranged 3 keys in the end. Yes, it makes the shift big. The Pandora is a big shift from everything else out there, so why not.

Grench_a.jpg


I'd really like to get the Fn key out of the corner regardless. Thank you for being open to input!

imo that is the worst layout i have seen... how can i make the letter "M" as a capitol? My thumbs are not that big. The shift key should be easily accessable on both thumbs. how is fn lock useful?

edit: wait I just noticed something, it is like this on all the layouts... WTF??? how the hell are we going to capitalize something without the shift key being on both of our thumbs??? The shift key should either be the shoulder buttons or should be on accessable BY BOTH THUMBS! My thumbs can not reach across the whole board! please look at the sidekick III layout. I still do not see how fn lock is useful, it should be replaced by shift. ctrl should be on the left side of the keyboard and alt should be on the right. space is weird... I have to stop, press space and then press a key unlike an actually keyboard. On a keyboard you are ready to press a button right after you hit space because one of your fingers is already hovering above the key. Im just gonna make my own layout
 

greendots

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If we have another poll it should be on concepts not anyone's layout. To be honest I don't think that many people know what they where voting on or took the time to dissect mapping.

I would love input from the devs on anything that happened in this or the last thread. The number of votes, posts and threads show that this is still one of the most important subjects we don't know enough about.

About accidentally hitting the two bottom corner buttons- I don't think it will be a problem. When I tried the approximate placement of the buttons on a DS, they managed to be relatively easy to hit and still far from my palms. While game this will not be a problem because keyboard will probably not have input.

---
"edit: wait I just noticed something it is like this on all the layouts... WTF??? how the hell are we going to capitalize something without the shift key being on both of our thumbs??? The shift key should either be the shoulder buttons or should be on accessable BY BOTH THUMBS! My thumbs can not reach across the whole board! please look at the sidekick III layout. I still do not see how fn lock is useful, it should be replace by shift."

Sticky keys......

btw I don't like that one either (no offense).
 

cosurgi

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polkunus said:
The shift key should either be the shoulder buttons or should be on accessable BY BOTH THUMBS! My thumbs can not reach across the whole board! please look at the sidekick III layout. I still do not see how fn lock is useful, it should be replaced by shift. ctrl should be on the left side of the keyboard and alt should be on the right. space should be the biggest button on the right.
Heh, there are simply not enough keys for that. You are welcome to submit your own design, which does not require adding more keys. Hardware is fixed. We are only debating here about what to print on the keyboard.

And of course, like with all handhelds - you can use sticky keys mode. This solves your problem in 100%.
 

polkunus

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cosurgi said:
polkunus said:
The shift key should either be the shoulder buttons or should be on accessable BY BOTH THUMBS! My thumbs can not reach across the whole board! please look at the sidekick III layout. I still do not see how fn lock is useful, it should be replaced by shift. ctrl should be on the left side of the keyboard and alt should be on the right. space should be the biggest button on the right.
Heh, there are simply not enough keys for that. You are welcome to submit your own design, which does not require adding more keys. Hardware is fixed. We are only debating here about what to print on the keyboard.

And of course, like with all handhelds - you can use sticky keys mode. This solves your problem in 100%.
However, I am not fan of sticky keys, i will make my own layout. I'll post it tomorrow.
 

cosurgi

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bronek said:
It is possible to have clear winner with as many as 6 choices (or even more) using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_runoff_voting
That would be useful, but considering that more than 500 votes are expected, we have to rely on "automatic" vote counting (not by hand), which is provided by forum polls. Unfortunately forum polls do not provide instant runoff voting.

PS: moved this thread into hardware discussions. I believe it belongs here most.
 

joseluisjazz

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I know it's late for considering this kind of changes, but nevertheless I wanted to share my point of view about keys positioning. I have the feeling that it would have been a good idea to have the keys forming a matrix of lines and columns, instead of copying the normal keyboard layout of diagonalized columns. \\\\

Also, I see the natural place for the modifier keys is in the middle (where usually spacebar is), to be able to reach them comfortably with the thumbs. That would have been something very nice to have.

Something like following this philosophy:



It's less straining for the hands, faster to use, and more space efficient I see much wasted space in current layout.

But since it is like it is... It is like it is :)
 

Lennox Rosomer

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joseluisjazz said:
I know it's late for considering this kind of changes, but nevertheless I wanted to share my point of view about keys positioning. I have the feeling that it would have been a good idea to have the keys forming a matrix of lines and columns, instead of copying the normal keyboard layout of diagonalized columns. \\\\

Also, I see the natural place for the modifier keys is in the middle (where usually spacebar is), to be able to reach them comfortably with the thumbs. That would have been something very nice to have.

Something like following this philosophy:

http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/gra ... /tmbig.gif

It's less straining for the hands, faster to use, and more space efficient I see much wasted space in current layout.

But since it is like it is... It is like it is :)
what is that from? just curious. but honesty i don't really see the attraction to such a layout
 

joseluisjazz

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Lennox Rosomer said:
what is that from? just curious. but honesty i don't really see the attraction to such a layout
I hot linked the image, the domain is http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/, you can see there some of their products, apparently designed to be more ergonomic. The attraction is a very subjective thing, the usefullness is somewhat more objective.

Anyway, I can see the majority of keyboards they sell has the diagonal column distribution. The image must be from some software, I dunno.
 

ellanceo

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They seriously aren't considering putting the Delete key all the way in the top right corner are they? That would be SO irritating! <_<
 

polkunus

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joseluisjazz said:
I know it's late for considering this kind of changes, but nevertheless I wanted to share my point of view about keys positioning. I have the feeling that it would have been a good idea to have the keys forming a matrix of lines and columns, instead of copying the normal keyboard layout of diagonalized columns. \\\\

Also, I see the natural place for the modifier keys is in the middle (where usually spacebar is), to be able to reach them comfortably with the thumbs. That would have been something very nice to have.

Something like following this philosophy:

http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/gra ... /tmbig.gif

It's less straining for the hands, faster to use, and more space efficient I see much wasted space in current layout.

But since it is like it is... It is like it is :)

um... that layout looks like it is for people that have a hard time typing or are uncomfortable with the original layout. "special needs" lol
 

verm71

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polkunus said:
um... that layout looks like it is for people that have a hard time typing or are uncomfortable with the original layout. "special needs" lol
It's for folks like me who, despite years and years of practice, still can't type with the homerow... hunt and peck FTW, 95 wpm W00T!
 

kagato

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We're back on this, huh? :)

Actually, this was my last layout:
(number and top row Fn swapped)


I now think not using Shift for anything Shift isn't normally used for is a good idea, so I'm starting to prefer this.
The numkey punctuation symbols aren't the most frequently used, so I guess the extra reach isn't such a problem.
 

kagato

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mkinzler said:
I wonder if it is a good idea having Fn and Fn Lock on the same key
It's pretty normal for thumb keyboards. All the devices I've had worked that way.
Press Fn twice for Fn lock, Shift twice (or Fn Shift) for Caps lock. Press once more to unlock.
 
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