The Big Open Pandora Community Survey, 2014

[levi]

On one hand I'm surprised there are so many people that like me have a problem with stuff being hidden behind a google login - when I posted that originally I thought there weren't so many people who shared my aversion (though I guess it's no surprise that if they're anywhere, they'd be here). On the other hand, I'm happy that enough people were able to submit their answers to your survey - us vocal few aren't big enough in number to stop you using google docs, or to significantly affect your results.


I know what you mean about it though, there's simply nothing quite like google docs out there, and the survey sites are still stuck in the web 1.0 days in the main. Perhaps there's a hole in the market for a more usable survey site that isn't tied into the google network?

 

[Willhelm]

done . ...

although i also dislike your choice to pick google for this. <_<

 

[ekianjo]

I know what you mean about it though, there's simply nothing quite like google docs out there, and the survey sites are still stuck in the web 1.0 days in the main. Perhaps there's a hole in the market for a more usable survey site that isn't tied into the google network?

There's definitely a market opportunity there, I can clearly see it, but seems like noone cares enough to make it. And as you said all other solutions are stuck in Web 1.0 standards and CHARGE money for that !

 

[rygD]

On one hand I'm surprised there are so many people that like me have a problem with stuff being hidden behind a google login - when I posted that originally I thought there weren't so many people who shared my aversion (though I guess it's no surprise that if they're anywhere, they'd be here).

It surprised me too.  Usually I would be on your side, but since Google already knows I have a Pandora, and everything I say here, I wasn't too concerned, plus I felt it was worthwhile, especially since ekianjo went to the trouble of making the survey.  I cannot stand Google, yet I still use some of their stuff.  To show how stupid I am, I hate Microsoft, and refuse to do anything that provides them with money, directly or indirectly, yet I haven't fully turned my back on Google, and they seem far more dangerous.  

I feel like there should be something in there about the greater of two evils, or the road to hell being paved with candy and software that sorta works.

 

[bzar]

Done!


A suggestion for next time given that there's so many google haters here.. Try out Survey Monkey https://www.surveymonkey.com

 
I tried it, it sucked I'm never using this shite again

Not promising anything, but if you laid out a list of features there would be in your minimal ideal survey site it could be a nice hobby/learning project. Go for an MVP description first that would solve the immediate problem of gathering the data. What kind of tools and features would be needed to create and answer to the kind of surveys you'd want to make?

 

[ekianjo]

Done!


A suggestion for next time given that there's so many google haters here.. Try out Survey Monkey https://www.surveymonkey.com

 
I tried it, it sucked I'm never using this shite again

Not promising anything, but if you laid out a list of features there would be in your minimal ideal survey site it could be a nice hobby/learning project. Go for an MVP description first that would solve the immediate problem of gathering the data. What kind of tools and features would be needed to create and answer to the kind of surveys you'd want to make?

Hey B-Zar, thanks for jumping in. 

While I'd certainly appreciate another tool, don't kid yourself a survey site is "easy" or "minimal". It's much more complex than what you'd think at first. The google forms survey is very powerful, can shuffle questions, react on a specific answer to transfer you to a different list of questions + have nice analytics tools and much, much more. They obviously dedicated a lot of time and thinking to making it.

I doubt you'd have enough time to sink to come even close in terms of features to what it can do, and I do need most of those. Just editing the survey itself is a pure pleasure with Google, and an incredible pain with all the other alternatives. 

Maybe one good approach, though, would be to start developing such a tool on github and have many people contribute to it. That may be a good way to reach a viable alternative down the road. 

 

[bzar]

Yeah, I didn't think I'd jump in and make one in a weekend

To be honest I probably wouldn't be a (at least lead) developer in the effort, but having the problem space mapped out would really help anyone undertaking such a task. It's easy to come up with an "intuitive" set of features for a survey site, but they rarely focus on what's important for the people actually making them.

I wasn't suggesting a survey site would be minimal, but in my opinion the MVP model of making such software would be the right choice to make. The development should first focus on a small group of core features that already solve some real world survey needs instead of trying to build it all at once. This makes sure that the result is useful to at least someone all the way through the development which makes it easier to motivate and gather more developers.

Consult the image below (from this great blog post) for reference:

 

[benoitb]

So, can we get a preview of the results ?

 

[ekianjo]

So, can we get a preview of the results ?

In november as ondicated on pandoralive

 

[Grench]

...you could add the survey as form elements on your website couldn't you? That's simple enough

 I have added it to the survey page on Pandoralive :

http://pandoralive.info/?p=4149

I'm assuming that even people without Google Accounts can now answer there. Please try.

Chrome browser just shows a blank stretch at the bottom of your page followed by comments.
Not going to log into Google to take a survey because it would reveal too much information to YOU. I.e. my real name (list of responder's emails) and a golden email address (one I don't give out).

Obviously from my posting history I'm opinionated and passionate about the OPEN Pandora and Pyra devices. It's too bad the survey you're doing is inside a walled garden.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Google account mandatory for voting about an open device ?

Insane idea, I'd say.

 

[moxie]

But for f*cks sake, everybody!!!

This is not, like, EDs method for preordering the Pyra. It is not a mandatory exercise in order to get posting rights on the boards. It is not the single way to influence the design of the nubs. It is Ekianjo, who on his free time has put together a survey, like, for fun? And if you like, you can answer it in order to contribute to a fun set of statistics. And if you don't like, you don't have to. You know? If your political or religious sensibilities are offended by the google logo, then do something else with your lives for those 5 minutes that you'd otherwise have spent on answering questions (that is, provided Google with the answer to the question "What consoles did you own as a kid", which really is the final piece of the puzzle that Google needs to hack your bank account and steal your moniez). 

There's something about geeks and our ability to turn the slightest thing into dramatic statements and A Question Of Liberty and whatnot. Sheez.

 

[Kiga]

Ekianjo, who on his free time has put together a survey, like, for fun? And if you like, you can answer it in order to contribute to a fun set of statistics. And if you don't like, you don't have to.

People who posted that they don't vote because of google contributed to the "fun set of statistics" otherwise we would be totally blank about who didn't vote because of google, there should be a poll here to know who didn't vote because of google so that in the future we could make the choice knowing what is worthy between google confort and more data.

Actually I didn't vote because I don't wanna associate my old google account, which I don't log on no more, to pandora and they ask for your phone number to create an account (and I'm lazy).

Maybe you could make the poll on another site then put the data in google to make all the computation and lovely drawings?

 

[ekianjo]

Maybe you could make the poll on another site then put the data in google to make all the computation and lovely drawings?

No. It's just not worth the trouble, because most ofher survey sites do not even permit the features I use on Google Forms. I have already provided an option not to use Google, by PMing me and sending me your email address. You can answer the form without a Google account if I can forward to it a single email address.

I proposed this but no-one contacted me with their email address, so I'm just guessing everyone who is complaining about Google is just basically too lazy to be bothered and just want to bitch about something in their spare time

 

[ekianjo]

there should be a poll here to know who didn't vote because of google

What for ? I'm even willing to take snapshots of the web page if they don't want to answer, but hey, instead of coming up with solutions, I just see people bitching around with no clear reason why they won't use Google, but don't mind registering their info on any other shopping site on Earth or even the Pandora boards. Because you know, Google is EVIL, has horns and eat innocent kids for breakfast. 

It would all be fine if people would be logical to the end, but I'm afraid the very same people complaining about Google are full of contradictions in regards to their online habits. But hey, since they don't answer the survey, we will never know. 

 

[thatgui]

But for f*cks sake, everybody!!!

This is not, like, EDs method for preordering the Pyra. It is not a mandatory exercise in order to get posting rights on the boards. It is not the single way to influence the design of the nubs. It is Ekianjo, who on his free time has put together a survey, like, for fun? And if you like, you can answer it in order to contribute to a fun set of statistics. And if you don't like, you don't have to. You know? If your political or religious sensibilities are offended by the google logo, then do something else with your lives for those 5 minutes that you'd otherwise have spent on answering questions (that is, provided Google with the answer to the question "What consoles did you own as a kid", which really is the final piece of the puzzle that Google needs to hack your bank account and steal your moniez). 

There's something about geeks and our ability to turn the slightest thing into dramatic statements and A Question Of Liberty and whatnot. Sheez.

While this is certainly true, I still think Linux-SWAT has a point - but more in an "academic mental exercise" way: utilizing tools from a big player in an "underdog environment", where one of the key elements of its existence is to distingush itself from those "big ones", which inherently will bear some sort of resentment against them.
But back to bitching: I did not partake either, because I don't want to cater to google creating relations for free. But ekianjo gave a pretty good explanation why he choose google, so I better be quiet....or not....

What for ?

As I did not partake in the survey (so I don't know the questions asked), this may be just nonsene: Don't you bias your results if you exclude a certain group of people ?

I'm even willing to take snapshots of the web page if they don't want to answer, but hey, instead of coming up with solutions,

What solutions actually would there be ? You made pretty clear early on that everything else except what google offers is "sh*t", alternatives where mentioned. But I understand that at a certain point, you just did not want to start over again, and loose the data that was already gathered.

I just see people bitching around with no clear reason why they won't use Google, but don't mind registering their info on any other shopping site on Earth or even the Pandora boards. Because you know, Google is EVIL, has horns and eat innocent kids for breakfast. 

It would all be fine if people would be logical to the end, but I'm afraid the very same people complaining about Google are full of contradictions in regards to their online habits. But hey, since they don't answer the survey, we will never know.

I did not partake for the very reason you mentioned, but I don't think Google is more or less "evil" than any other company that wants/needs to make money. And I don't give away my personal data as willingly as you suggest, I try to avoid it whereever it is possible.Why do people have to be logical to the end anyway? Why is there this "you have deviated from one of your principles once, now you can complete let go of it" attitude? Were humans, were fallible.

 

[bzar]

As I did not partake in the survey (so I don't know the questions asked), this may be just nonsene: Don't you bias your results if you exclude a certain group of people ?

Not necessarily. It depends entirely on if there exists a correlation between the measured properties and the ones used in the exclusion. As a quick example, you can quite safely exclude everyone who dislikes apples in a survey about what kind of nubs people want for pyra. Those two are so improbable to be related in any way that they are just about as biasing as the random selection of individuals you happen to get answers from.
In this case one could argue that there would be a correlation between computer knowledge and unwillingness to share personal information, but I'd hazard a guess that's not that strong a correlation either. I suspect it's just a more common topic of conversation in these circles and the most vocal about it tend to be the most worried about it, so the sample-by-vocality is inherently biased.

EDIT: You may have thought about this already, as you mentioned you don't know the questions asked. In this case consider this a general commentary on whether any exclusion pattern affects the end result of a survey and musing about the correlation between privacy-mindedness and computer knowledge.

 

[_wb_]

There's one aspect about Pandora/Pyra that you can probably not measure reliably using a Google-based survey: to what extent do people like the Pandora/Pyra because it respects their privacy and doesn't require them to create a Google account. For some people, that is a reason (a big reason or a small reason) to use a Pandora/Pyra, and it's likely that the results of a Google-based survey will be negatively biased towards people with that opinion.

I personally think it's a valid concern, but it didn't stop me from filling out the form.

I don't like it that Google controls so much information, but that doesn't stop me from using lots of Google stuff: search, maps, mail, YouTube, Google Plus, Android on my phone, calendar, hangouts, scholar. Their tools are mostly technically sound (unlike Microsoft's shite), tend to be relatively open (unlike Microsoft's and Apple's shite), they tend to adhere to standards and do sane things to improve the standards (unlike Microsoft) and they do some effort to support free and open source software (unlike Microsoft and Apple). There are obviously some evil aspects about Google, but compared to Microsoft and Apple the dosage of "evil" is pretty moderate as far as I can tell.

 

[thatgui]

As I did not partake in the survey (so I don't know the questions asked), this may be just nonsene: Don't you bias your results if you exclude a certain group of people ?

Not necessarily. It depends entirely on if there exists a correlation between the measured properties and the ones used in the exclusion. As a quick example, you can quite safely exclude everyone who dislikes apples in a survey about what kind of nubs people want for pyra. Those two are so improbable to be related in any way that they are just about as biasing as the random selection of individuals you happen to get answers from.
[snip]....[/snip]

EDIT: You may have thought about this already, as you mentioned you don't know the questions asked. In this case consider this a general commentary on whether any exclusion pattern affects the end result of a survey and musing about the correlation between privacy-mindedness and computer knowledge.

sigh, in need to proofread more, "nonsene" was meant to be "nonsense"

In this case one could argue that there would be a correlation between computer knowledge and unwillingness to share personal information, but I'd hazard a guess that's not that strong a correlation either. I suspect it's just a more common topic of conversation in these circles and the most vocal about it tend to be the most worried about it, so the sample-by-vocality is inherently biased.

But isn't that hard to predict ? Isn't there a chance that there could be in fact somekind of "silent majority" that does not vote because of certain "premises"? This may not even be directly related to the stance "Evilgoogle" that came up in this thread, but more "simplistic" reasons, like lazyness or the internet providing other distractions that may lure people away from the survey before they could complete the effort to actually start the survey - of course its not likely in these circles but possible nevertheless > in short: you never know, better get them all while you still got their attention(?)

 

[ekianjo]

Every survey is, by definition, biased. Because you are only sampling a small amount of what you actually measure. Elections are biased as well. 

The thing is, you need to be aware of the biases of you survey beforehand so that you know how to interpret the results. 

The first part of my report on the survey will be about the biases, because that's what need to come first before discussing results: knowing the limitations of what you measured. The Google haters are not the single bias in this story, the fact that mostly active people answered the survey is another, much larger bias regarding how they rate the Pandora. The ones who are not using the Pandora anymore have probably not seen this survey, and we will not get their feedback. That is putting the Pandora into a very favorable light which may not represent the actually reality.

But I did not call this survey "Open Pandora Community" for nothing. Someone who has stopped using a Pandora is also likely not to participate here anymore, so they may stop being part of that active community as well. Anyway, I will discuss that point in more details.