S
StreaK
Guest
Could You explain why not?
Small amount of money support for APPS PORTER making ports for OP - Poll
Could You explain why not?
I can't speak for Hoodoo, but I wouldn't, neither. For me, personally, it creates a blackmail-y feeling. I guess for the more general community, it also brings back memories of similar things in the past that didn't work out too well.
Also, specifically for ports, there is an unease at taking what is mostly someone elses work and "holding it hostage" for money. This would be frowned upon quite strongly from an FOSS perspective - Enough so that I imagine that if you started out doing something like this, some other talented coder (I.e. not me - This is not me doing veiled threats) would negate it by doing a parallel port in the "grace time". Since I'm not able to write well enough for me to understand myself today (Have a fever and a big fat head cold. My brain is two sizes too big for my skull), I'll give an example of what I mean:
You: "I have now ported MegaAPP 3000, and those who want it now can donate $4 - I will release it to everyone in four weeks time!"
One week later:
SomeoneElse: "I've now ported MegaAPP 3000. Get it as usual from the Repo"
In short, I imagine it will leave you with a bad reputation and your donators with a feeling of having been ripped off.
Really, in the end, I think there are a few unmovable principles of this hobby:
* It is a hobby, not a work. You will not be making noticable amounts of money out of this. Not even, I think, enough to pay for good standard hosting.
* Donations comes from many users. Many users come from quality of software and ease of getting hold of.
As it is, the standard way to get the pandora software fix is by the Repo. Not putting your ports on the repo is an extra complication for the users. Not putting it on one of the other, less-used places (archive/app store) makes it even more complicated. Fiddling about with several classes of users (paid/not paid) and thinking about whether to donate now or wait till later is more complication. At every step of complicating, you will lose potential users (and thereby potential donors) who just can't be arsed to figure out how to jump the hoops. You'd need a real killer app to pull people past those barriers, and as the reference to Zod above goes to show, even that doesn't help, sometimes.
In the end, you have the problem/question: "I'd like to have a lot of users of my ported apps donate a little to me, so that the apps themselves at least pay for the hosting for them", more or less. And it is very hard to avoid the conclusion that "Well, sonny, put them on the Repo. That way, you will get the most users, the donation infrastructure is built-in, and the hosting is free. Problem solved and disappeared, at the same time".
Now, I have no idea about what the problem is between you and the Repo. There has been some similar incidents earlier, where some devs have publicly stated that they do not wish their work to appear on the app store, for instance, in reponse to something Craig has said or done. It is a good thing to have principles and ideals to stand by
but there is also a cost associated by holding on to a principle in face of the easy solution (this is a general observation). In this case, the decision to not use the obvious way to host and distribute your work will cost you in users (and donations) and in hosting. It is the price to pay for your conviction, and I'd imagine the solution is to think about whether the conviction is worth the cost.End Apology: I've a headache and my breathing apparatus is full of goo. I do not quite feel at home in english today (whether on the reading or writing side, I can't tell). I'm trying, in the above, to be helpful. If it comes across as fingerpointing, or if I stepped on someones toes, blame my cold, not me
Hoodoo
Member
I probably am biased here, but I think where things like that start something important for me ends. It reminds me of Windows with its Home/Business/whatnot versions and I think what they actually do is spoiling software to increase their profits. Same thing here, this would actually mean that the new version releases will be delayed to please the donators and probably some measures will be taken to stop them from redistributing the apps. It might be economically reasonable and all but I just don't want to be a part of it.
I'm not against buying some software, especially indie games for Linux, but I'm against marketing BS and DRM.
Whatever interesting thing about Pandora I do, I do in my free time and willing to share with anybody, so far I only compiled one driver for one wireless chip and only two people except for myself need it, and it only was possible because other people made changes to the kernel for it to work, but still.
// The whole 'this goes to the repo, that doesn't' thing is one more serious reason to switch distro ASAP, even if it would mean compiling for weeks and only playing solitaire. If I wanted some limitations of that kind, I would keep using my Motorola Milestone.
I'm not against buying some software, especially indie games for Linux, but I'm against marketing BS and DRM.
Whatever interesting thing about Pandora I do, I do in my free time and willing to share with anybody, so far I only compiled one driver for one wireless chip and only two people except for myself need it, and it only was possible because other people made changes to the kernel for it to work, but still.
// The whole 'this goes to the repo, that doesn't' thing is one more serious reason to switch distro ASAP, even if it would mean compiling for weeks and only playing solitaire. If I wanted some limitations of that kind, I would keep using my Motorola Milestone.
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Apart from "hostage software", though, I have absolutely nothing against donating to developers who has either created or ported useful software for me. Quite the opposite. So, an unqualified "Yes" at the poll, for software that I can find and use.
kuru
Who the heck is Stephan Kramer?
Why so, if I may ask? The community likes the repo a lot. Don't you like the community?
To add onto that: I have developed quite an aversion towards companies/individuals who, in order to get or see something, make you go to their facebollocks page and klick "smite" or whatever. Eff that big time.
To answer the poll: Yes, if he's not stuck up and/or tries to coerce me into things.
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S
StreaK
Guest
There was a time when i put everthing that i ported straight onto repo, unfortunatelly [for you] these times are over. There was a big talk about it on my other thread [Tiny fugue thread , i think..].
In addition to that i can say, it isnt much efford for You to click FaceBook "like" button, instead of thank a develeper/porter face - to - face
. There was a times when postcardware works in mid 90'es, but this times are over as well. Today users send Thanks by FB, and this is all ok for me.BTW. I have a felling that most of You, think ports are made from thin air, and unfortunatelly some of You might not know how much free time is involved in making a proper port for OP: Compiling libs / Compiling apps / Testing apps / Adjusting apps to fit OP users needs / Packing it / testing it on real OP [some tasks in 3x in loop ]... this is a free time, that could be rather consumed in better ways like "drunk myself to loose my mind, and wake up next morning.."
.I really think most of dev's that left the Openhandhelds scene just lost interest, mainly because of users. Because users determining devs to work, otherwise most ports would go under the dev's rug [only for dev's to play].
Sometimes saying thanks isnt enaugh. Its like you doing 3hour work, and all You get is "thanks", "excellent". Sometimes you'll need a helpfull hand so You asking a someone for help and You'll get only "sorry, i cant", "sorry, what was a question?".. sometime you'll need something [like donation idea] to keep you in shape, because You're feed up with "thanks" and "you're rocks" from one side, and hearing "sorry, i cant help" from other.. since devs/porters are also humans.
The question about DONATION isnt banned here, so i would rather ask You in a poll, than not ask at all..
There could be many things that could be better done with donation. You have no idea how it could help. For example my Inside The Box OpenPandora e-zine could get professional articles [i can pay authors for professional article from donation], since only one person would like to help with Inside The Box e-zine, and its DarkCheetah. Everyone else saying "i would really like to help, but i dont know how.." which is really disappointing when looking how big OP community is..
And the most important question: Would You rather get a port of a game/app/emu for OP after donation or rather not get a port of game/app/emu for OP.
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ZXDunny
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Once upon a time, ZodTTD announced that he had a full-speed, working port of GPSP for the GP2X. Having just lost my GBA-SP, this was wonderful news. Thing is, it was only available to people who donated - so I donated.
It was slow and had enormous incompatibilities with many games I wanted to play - and that felt like I'd been ripped off, basically.
So never again.
As for Pandora ports, so long as it's "polished" as you put it (where "polished" means "had a reasonable amount of work put in besides simply rebuilding the source using an ARM toolchain, using Pandora controls where appropriate and taking Pandora's screen into account, with a decent UI rather than a simple/lazy zenity or GTK interface) and efforts have been made to make it run at stock CPU speed - ie, the guy doing the port has actually made an effort, then I would be willing to donate after I've tested it to see if the above has been fulfilled.
So far, there's not many will get anything from me as the majority of ports for the Pandora are lazy rebuilds of OSS apps/games with no effort made. Why should I donate when I could do the same work myself using one or two commands in a terminal?
D.
It was slow and had enormous incompatibilities with many games I wanted to play - and that felt like I'd been ripped off, basically.
So never again.
As for Pandora ports, so long as it's "polished" as you put it (where "polished" means "had a reasonable amount of work put in besides simply rebuilding the source using an ARM toolchain, using Pandora controls where appropriate and taking Pandora's screen into account, with a decent UI rather than a simple/lazy zenity or GTK interface) and efforts have been made to make it run at stock CPU speed - ie, the guy doing the port has actually made an effort, then I would be willing to donate after I've tested it to see if the above has been fulfilled.
So far, there's not many will get anything from me as the majority of ports for the Pandora are lazy rebuilds of OSS apps/games with no effort made. Why should I donate when I could do the same work myself using one or two commands in a terminal?
D.
mcobit
Advanced Member
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I have the impression you just want thanks and attention.
And so you force people to click on some facebook shit, that not even everyone uses.
Really, think again. Do it for fun and occasional donations! See it as a hobby.
You recompiled a lot of stuff and then wanted others to touch it up and package.
Ok, so why not do one app at a time and polish it, so that it makes a good port. Then release. You have done this with some later apps, so why not continue? Do you have the feeling your work is not appreciated? Don't you get enough money out of this for your liking? Did you ever set up the dnationbutton on the repo?
Well, really, don't be an attention whore. Everyone, who did ports (also people like pickle, sebt3, me and others), that involved huge rewrites of games, like ogles conversions etc. Do it for fun!
So try to make money out of this, good luck! But I am not sure if it will work out as stated by others.
And so you force people to click on some facebook shit, that not even everyone uses.
Really, think again. Do it for fun and occasional donations! See it as a hobby.
You recompiled a lot of stuff and then wanted others to touch it up and package.
Ok, so why not do one app at a time and polish it, so that it makes a good port. Then release. You have done this with some later apps, so why not continue? Do you have the feeling your work is not appreciated? Don't you get enough money out of this for your liking? Did you ever set up the dnationbutton on the repo?
Well, really, don't be an attention whore. Everyone, who did ports (also people like pickle, sebt3, me and others), that involved huge rewrites of games, like ogles conversions etc. Do it for fun!
So try to make money out of this, good luck! But I am not sure if it will work out as stated by others.
I've tried to find that, and failed. Question to ED - Is there any way to make the "Show threads" from the profile show more than just five threads or so? Or at least get a "older posts" button?
With that said, I'm not sure it is unfortunate only for us. This thread goes to show that at least partly, it is so for you, too.
In addition to that i can say, it isnt much efford for You to click FaceBook "like" button, instead of thank a develeper/porter face - to - face
Well, see, that goes straight to the crux of the matter, really. It is a big difference between saying thank you for something that is done, is useful, and is available, and another thing to have to say "thank you" (or "like", as is the modern equivalent) just in order to see and try out what is available.
I do believe you are mistaken here. We do understand this. This "lost free time" will never be recovered, and will never be properly repaid through donations. That is a basic presupposition as a developer in a FOSS environment. So if you really think that your time could be better spent - Spend it that way. Honestly. I know that there is satisfaction in applying oneself to a problem (like porting), working at it, solving it, and afterwards to post it for download, to see the download numbers rise and get incoming thanks and cheers from users. If that is not enough to offset a good binge in the pub, though - Go for the pub. Really.
BTW. I have a felling that most of You, think ports are made from thin air, and unfortunatelly some of You might not know how much free time is involved in making a proper port for OP[...] this is a free time, that could be rather consumed in better ways like "drunk myself to loose my mind, and wake up next morning.."
Donations is a good extra perk, and might possibly surprise you (see Sebt3), but it is an extra. If it becomes more important than that, can it. This is not from an ideological "all software should bee free" high horse, but purely practical - It won't work out.
Brutal honesty: I'd rather not. This is of course somewhat moderated by the desirability of said app/emu, but we have had a few stories like what ZXDunny describes, which makes everybody a bit wary around the subject. That doesn't mean that I won't pitch in a donation after the port/app/emu is done, but that is something different.
Appreciation comes after the fact, not before. Same thing as the facebook thingie.
S
StreaK
Guest
I NEVER said, that my ports will be released ONLY FOR PEOPLE who DONATES. Please dont make missinterpretation here. I only said that donators will get ports quicker than non-donators, which is fair from my side, since all ports will be release for free after a month..
kuru
Who the heck is Stephan Kramer?
Browsed through your posts, couldn't find said discussion.
Well it is quite the hassle if you're not registered on failbook and do not intend to let yourself be coerced to do so. This is sadly becoming a bad habit.In addition to that i can say, it isnt much efford for You to click FaceBook "like" button, instead of thank a develeper/porter face - to - face
Why not open a thread here and ask for interest on a certain app you're planning to port. People could then pool in a bounty. That reaches a set amount, the port goes to the repo. What's wrong with that?
I'm really happy with Pandora's integrated repo downloader and the good and clean repo website itself. Why spread stuff around and make it hard for people?
You could always develop for iProne or Scamdroid if you want to make money off your efforts. Just don't expect reactions like
Fantastic! You really make the wait harder with all your great releases!
(Don't stop though)
Can't try it yet, but I will use it a lot once I have my Pandora!! Thanks!
and first and foremost:
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S
StreaK
Guest
Oh man, what can i say, it's your opinion. I dont think that way. Please read my post from the begining to the end. Especially part how donations could help in Inside The Box zine release..
Anyway
How you can ever think about commercial releases for OP, if most of You have problems with free donation question? Would You like to see a commercial AngryBirds-clone for OP, made on top of some GPL'ed engine with info about GPL removed, like most of these days DEVELOPMENT STUDIOS doing? Will it be fair enaugh to take the money from Your pocket? Guys, stop talking nonsense..
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Well, it is a bit difficult to read it from beginning to end, when you keep editing it
When I started my last reply, that post looked one way; When I finished it, it looked another, and now it looks a third way.
mcobit
Advanced Member
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Yeah, I normally don't read a post multiple times.
Also this is my opinion
You can release software commercially. No problem, but think about the gpl, there is a reason why people license it under this license.
Charge for polished ports, if you like, but maybe others would just release a free version of these apps. You have to convince people to buy your apps or to donate. This is the hard part.
I have nothing about this thread. You asked for opinions and is is mine. And with the angrybirds example: don't think about what others do, do it like you want and how it is legal.
Edit: Please mark the edits in your post with edit or something to make it more obvious.
I read through all your posts again and some of them are edited.
Also: Your argument with your pandorafanzine is really not valid. Why would you finance it with money from porst???
If you want professional articles and need to pay for them, then sell the fanzine itself!
The community is not too big and so you can't expect everybody to help with every idea.
Also this is my opinion
You can release software commercially. No problem, but think about the gpl, there is a reason why people license it under this license.
Charge for polished ports, if you like, but maybe others would just release a free version of these apps. You have to convince people to buy your apps or to donate. This is the hard part.
I have nothing about this thread. You asked for opinions and is is mine. And with the angrybirds example: don't think about what others do, do it like you want and how it is legal.
Edit: Please mark the edits in your post with edit or something to make it more obvious.
I read through all your posts again and some of them are edited.
Also: Your argument with your pandorafanzine is really not valid. Why would you finance it with money from porst???
If you want professional articles and need to pay for them, then sell the fanzine itself!
The community is not too big and so you can't expect everybody to help with every idea.
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gruso
thunderbox
Here's the thread mentioned earlier. http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?/topic/60223-tinyfugue-a-mud-client/
I wouldn't post it if I thought it was just going to fan the flames of an argument; it actually contains some very good discussion so it's worth posting for reference.
I wouldn't post it if I thought it was just going to fan the flames of an argument; it actually contains some very good discussion so it's worth posting for reference.
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S
StreaK
Guest
Firsty, this is only idea, and i wanted Your opinion about this. More people more polarised opinions in a subject. Thats no problem for me. Strange thing is everytime someone says something about money, community dump that man in a kitchen sink..
There was a small plan of mine and 3 folks from poland to release a small commercial game for OP [and well known in Poland] [that i really wanted to introduce in next month], but since there's a not a big demand for comercial releases , i would really think it's just waste of time and power, this time.
There was a small plan of mine and 3 folks from poland to release a small commercial game for OP [and well known in Poland] [that i really wanted to introduce in next month], but since there's a not a big demand for comercial releases , i would really think it's just waste of time and power, this time.
mcobit
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Oh boy, nobody said commercial releases are bad.
You were talking qbout ports of foss software before weren't you.
I would gladly buy a game, that is original and well ported to Pandora.
But for Ports of foss I wouldn't force people to pay.
Edit: Some people even stated, that they would buy commercial software for pandora, if they like it, so no problems at all with making people pay for closed source software.
You were talking qbout ports of foss software before weren't you.
I would gladly buy a game, that is original and well ported to Pandora.
But for Ports of foss I wouldn't force people to pay.
Edit: Some people even stated, that they would buy commercial software for pandora, if they like it, so no problems at all with making people pay for closed source software.
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Hoodoo
Member
Well I don't. Setting up the cross-compiler alone is quite a hassle. Still, I avoid anything that has 'community' and 'premium' version - SugarCRM, Oracle's apps, blog engines, development tools - whatever. Again, I don't even try to seem rational about it, I just avoid them, full stop. I don't feel like using them even if they are made of pure gold.
On the other hand I do buy stuff for entertainment, like music, books and games. If a game studio makes a game for Linux, I would happily buy it. My last purchase was Beep! for Linux, too bad I don't have enough time to play it.
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S
StreaK
Guest
Would You rather have a donation button "Pay donate for Porter's Time spend on porting" instead of "Donate", from GPL POV it should be ok..
-edit:
BTW.
I havent got any problem to pay bigger developers fund to Craig when i was paying for OP, even when i know most of apps for OP OS was ported from GPL'd software
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milkshake
Advanced Member
Well you could still have commercial games for the Pandora.
Eventually I'm sure the ability to sell you apps could be introduced into the repo (probably website only); but until then you could just have a website to sell your commercial apps.
The community wouldn't hate you for that as they would understand the repo or app store at this present time doesn't support the sales of applications/games etc, and if this commercial game you were planning on releasing looked any good I would certainly purchase it.
Eventually I'm sure the ability to sell you apps could be introduced into the repo (probably website only); but until then you could just have a website to sell your commercial apps.
The community wouldn't hate you for that as they would understand the repo or app store at this present time doesn't support the sales of applications/games etc, and if this commercial game you were planning on releasing looked any good I would certainly purchase it.
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