Sick And Tired Of These?

[Esn]

Very good chad, but I fail to see how this is a problem. As I said in my earlier post, there's enough room for everyone. The main thing is for the community to have a welcoming and appreciative attitude toward developers, no matter what they're working on. Even in the GP32 days, there were plenty of UMPC-like applications being made, mainly by the hobbyists at this "gaming forum". Nobody was ever hostile to this before, and I have not the slightest idea why we should start now. The best way to look at it would be to see every new program that we get as a gift, because somebody decided to use their free time to make something.

 

[CandidStan]

I wouldn't take anything grndslm says seriously, since he posted a thread, wanting to discuss the design of the Pandora 2 when the first model hasn't even been released.

 

[Kyo]

Yeah. Most of the gaming people will use it as UMPC as well.

 

[Prophet]

Nobody was ever hostile to this before, and I have not the slightest idea why we should start now.

There is/was never any hostility toward any sort of development on Pandora.

As I wrote earlier, this thread has operated on some misconceptions.

I haven't seen anyone show any hostility to any developer, nor to anyone for simply wanting to use Pandora as a non-gaming UMPC. Nobody has said "thou shalt play games on Pandora." The hostility was only directed at certain individuals who wanted to change Pandora's design more toward the mainstream, and did so in an ignorant and arrogant manner.

Also, chad wrote:

QUOTE
Not hanging out on a forum devoted to and named after 2 aging niche gaming consoles, that's for sure.

That's the major problem - if this discussion were taking place on EeePCUsers.com or internettablettalk.com or UMPCPortal.com - the devs would be talking about the different useful applications they will be writing - not what obscure 1970s video game console they will be emulating.


You see chad, there is an arrogance in those types of statements (and those made by maybe one or two other people in the past), and it matters. Because it suggests that you're only tolerating the gamers and emulation fans here, as if we're some sort of ignorant dolts you have to put up with until the "real world" comes along and gives Pandora "useful applications."

Please lose the arrogance. Then even you and I can get along.

 

[chad78]

Ok - I said "major problem" - but it's not a major problem. I was just countering the suggestion that since few / no devs are talking about their killer app, just their killer emu - that it somehow proves it's a gaming device, and not a UMPC. It's a major problem in the sense of these discussions. That's the problem I have with the polls. Like someone pointed out in a recent poll. "Well, the people on the Pandora forums suggest getting a Pandora." or something like that.

The people on a gaming forum vote that the Pandora is a gaming device. Go figure. People invested in (by buying / coding for / reviewing / selling / etc.) retro-centered gaming handhelds really want the Pandora to be good at retro-centered gaming. :-O !!

For the record - and I think that by explaining one side, I often come across as despising the other - for the record - I want games on the Pandora. I will play games on the Pandora. I will play many, many retro systems on the Pandora. Just like I do on my PSP, DS, GBA, and - back when it wasn't boxed up - my Xbox.

My problem is - if all you think of it as is a gaming system. If all it's promoted as is a gaming system. Then the other stuff will suffer.

As has been pointed out - there are huge lists of what emus are being ported - what GP2X games are being revamped - what systems will be seen on a handheld for the first time. That's great. But where are the browser updates? Where are the lists of what media types will play and which won't? Where are the office apps? Where is the chat client? Where is the freaking Operating System?!?!?

How can people claim to be working on the Pandora version of their emulator when there's no hint of an operating system? Yeah, I know - it's Linux. So's my TiVo - that doesn't mean you can port NESter to it.

As AireTamStorm pointed out - if all the focus is on gaming - that's all you'll get. Listen, guys, the gaming stuff is pretty much a given. Whatever OS the Pandora has - all the systems available on the GP2X will be ported in no time, and the newer systems will be worked out as well. There are plenty of Devs on these forums to get that taken care of. But what about the other stuff?

Some have suggested that as long as you can point me to the games - that's all the GUI I need! Hogwash! Why bother having all the power that the Pandora has if you are just going to point to the games with it? BlueTooth, WiFi, High-Res Touchscreen... All just to play Oregon Trail? (Which, seriously, I am excited about. I just played it online with my Eee PC.) The operating system has to be robust enough to have real practical powerful applications to run on it. And it would be nice if those programs were existing programs like AbiWord, Firefox, Songbird, Miro, VLC.... So no one would be stuck with the mundane tasks of writing Yet Another Text Editor - or Yet Another media player - or Yet Another Fill In The Blank....

I'm just really worried with the focus so much on games - the rest of it will die of neglect - and the Pandora will end up being just the GP2X2 with keyboard.

 

[Esn]

Someone who's owned both a UMPC and a GP32/2X needs to chime in here. Because frankly, I suspect that Chad is not understanding me and I'm not understanding him, and this might be because Chad's never owned a GP32/2X and I've never owned a UMPC. Does UMPC development work differently somehow? Is it all closed-source and created by paid professionals rather than skilled hobbyists?

Because when I followed the GP32 scene, I could never predict exactly what was going to happen; we got all sorts of useful programs, sometimes without any prior announcement, because that's how some people work. And I just learned to expect that and take it in stride. There was no central organization as such.

And we certainly didn't get only games, because the focus is largely set not by the users, but by the developers themselves (who are also users). If the machine could do something, there was a good chance that someone would attempt to write a program for that. Just maybe not right away. And the best way to quicken up the process was not to badger existing developers, but to have a good atmosphere in the community and thereby attract more developers.

 

[chad78]

Also, chad wrote:

QUOTE
Not hanging out on a forum devoted to and named after 2 aging niche gaming consoles, that's for sure.

That's the major problem - if this discussion were taking place on EeePCUsers.com or internettablettalk.com or UMPCPortal.com - the devs would be talking about the different useful applications they will be writing - not what obscure 1970s video game console they will be emulating.

You see chad, there is an arrogance in those types of statements (and those made by maybe one or two other people in the past), and it matters. Because it suggests that you're only tolerating the gamers and emulation fans here, as if we're some sort of ignorant dolts you have to put up with until the "real world" comes along and gives Pandora "useful applications."

Please lose the arrogance. Then even you and I can get along.See, that's what I'm talking about. I get hyped up about the side that's being maligned/ignored that I loose sensitivity to the other side's point.

I did not mean to sound arrogant.

From what I've read on these forums - people do see the GP2X / GP32 as aging niche gaming consoles. The word "niche" has been used by many people, (including, I believe, you Prophet), in a non-negative way (positive, maybe?) to describe this "scene" / market. And the fact is, they are both older systems. Heck, the DS is an aging system. But I do see how that could seem negative.

My point was, UMPC coders don't hang out here - any more than they hang out on BBQ forums or quilting forums or Soccer forums or Hot Rod forums. There might be a few UMPC devs on those forums - just like there are a few here - but it's by coincidence of their other interests - not because they are UMPC developers.

I love my Nintendo DS Lite. It's freaking cool. It has some very fun games on it. And I even have the Opera browser on it (as well as a homebrew browser as a part of DSOrganize). But the DS is not a useful device. It's a toy. It's a time killer. It's pure entertainment. Entertainment has value. It has merit. I like entertainment. But entertainment ≠ useful. Same thing for my PSP. My Eee PC - that's useful. It can also play games. One of the first programs I installed on it was MegaMario. But what gives my Eee PC value is not MegaMario, or Oregon Trail. It's the applications it can run. Office, Firefox, VLC.

That's the distinction I was making between games and useful applications. Not that games are useless - but that they are not useful in the since of other than entertainment. (And, believe me, I know the studies about hand-eye coordination, marksmanship, reaction times, higher kill rate in times of war - all of that. I'm a gamer, too. There's just a difference between work and play.)

No, I'm not "tolerating" the gamers until the "real world" gets ahold of the Pandora. The "real world" I was talking about was the real world. When it gets off the forums - out of being just words - when it gets into my hands, and your hands. Materializes, forms... Again, I don't want to suggest its vaporware - but at this moment, it doesn't actually exist. Developer models do - but the consumer-ready Mk1 models don't exist yet. That's what I meant by "Real world".

When the non-gaming community - or at least the not-on-this-forum-at-the-moment community can actually get their hands on it physically - they will come to the forums. they will offer code. They will write apps.

At least I hope they do - I hope the Operating System can handle it.

 

[TaG]

.... once the Pandora is off the forum and in the real world... Let me put it this way "If you build it, they will come." .... Once it is, then the coding will begin.

I think that once Pandora is out there there will be many developers, some from the GP32/GP2X community, some from the Linux community, some that come from UMPC that will want to get UMPC type apps running - apps that probably can't be worked on yet because they don't have Pandora in their hands.

And honestly, maybe part of the problem is none of the existing UMPC devices are really satisfying that community's needs. .... But Pandora fills a niche of its own, by design and intent. Hopefully that can be understood and respected.

I really don't think there is a UMPC that delivers the size/power/price combo of Pandora - I looked to see if there was anything else that better met the UMPC side of my requirements and there isn't. Also, I want a device that plays good games and does the other stuff (as do you and Chad), which as you say is what makes Pandora unique

The main thing is for the community to have a welcoming and appreciative attitude toward developers, no matter what they're working on. .... Nobody was ever hostile to this before, and I have not the slightest idea why we should start now. The best way to look at it would be to see every new program that we get as a gift, because somebody decided to use their free time to make something.

With you 100%. Respect to all developers may they bestow many glorious gifts on us - and I do hereby thank each and every one of them in advance.

I went away for a week and came back and thought gee what is all the bad feeling. It's not nice and I hope the mood improves. It did occur to me that maybe issues like the nubs etc dampened peoples moods (didn't check timeline so could be totally off there...). We all want Pandora so much and want it to do so much that maybe that makes us a little heated too.

 

[chad78]

Does UMPC development work differently somehow? Is it all closed-source and created by paid professionals rather than skilled hobbyists?
Depends on the UMPC. Some are closed source - some are not. The ones I've had - N800, Eee PC - have been both. The OS was made by paid professionals and the software was both closed and open source. The main difference between any device I've ever owned and the Pandora, (other than its form factor - I'm talking about philosophy here), there's no big corporation behind it. There's no million-dollar development department that is making the initial software to make sure all the boring stuff is covered.

Except when I was a little kid playing with QBasic - I've never written a program in my life. But I imagine there's a lot more fun in writing a video game than in writing a email client. And, I think that the mandune task of polishing the GUI is less rewarding than checking another system off the "to be emulated" list. I'm concerned that the boring, non-flashy, usually paid-to-do stuff - won't get done. I like open source stuff - I use it. I was a very active member of the OpenOffice.org users/dev/planning scene for years. (Google for Chad W Smith and openoffice.org if you don't believe me.) I just know that OOo wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't [a] start with a paid program (StarOffice back in the day was completely closed source) and have a company actively promoting, developing, and paying for it (Sun Microsystems). The boring work gets done by paid developers. I don't expect people to just make the software I need out of the kindness of their own hearts. Especially if they aren't being encouraged to do so.

[EDIT] I don't *expect* them to do so - but when they do (and it happens - often) - I am grateful. /edit

 

[Esn]

I don't expect people to just make the software I need[...]

Neither do I... I expect them to make the software they need (or want, or find interesting). They're users too, after all.

Few people used the official OS on the GP32, because it wasn't very good; all of the usual "OSs" and GUIs were hobbyist-made (I used woogal's YAFL GUI). That's why I'm saying, we're having a bit of a disconnect here because our experiences are different. And the best music players were also hobbyist-made. Now I don't know why somebody would make applications if it is truly "less fun", all I know is that that's what happened.

 

[gaterooze]

Chad, you've got the wrong idea about this community. Just take a look at some of the misc. apps made for the GP2X.

Even Qtopia and this.

We've always embraced UMPC-ish stuff (well, most of us), even though the GP2X was originally horribly unsuited to it.

 

[magicman5421]

I would like to add my voice for the "use for gaming and umpc". For me this will all but replace my Nintendo DS. I had a dell axim x51v a few years ago and I loved it. I was heartbroken when it was stolen. For me, pandora will be all that my axim had to offer and more.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

I agree with the thread starter, people really need to shut up about all of this UMPC vs. gaming stuff. The Pandora was founded as a gaming console. It's a huge aspect that draws many people to it. Great. But by the same token, Craig and co. have given this thing capable enough hardware to become not only an awesome handheld console, but a kickass UMPC, too. For that, we should all be grateful.

I'm going to be quite frank when I say that the above is all we really know about the Pandora. We know it's hardware specs and design, the rest is up to us. I think many people who complain about the supposed "lack" of UMPC abilities on the Pandora just haven't embraced the power of (or simply have never experienced,) open-source software development. People will make awesome games. People will make awesome emulators. People will make awesome PDA and UMPC apps. They just haven't yet.

My point is, don't bitch about stuff that doesn't exist. It's got the potential to exist, and it will someday soon. Well, provided the damn thing comes out soon!

 

[AireTamStorm]

That's the major problem - if this discussion were taking place on EeePCUsers.com or internettablettalk.com or UMPCPortal.com - the devs would be talking about the different useful applications they will be writing - not what obscure 1970s video game console they will be emulating.
Gaming is a primary concern for 90% of the people involved here. Why do you think the Pandora has gaming controls?

A )
Ok - I said "major problem" - but it's not a major problem. I was just countering the suggestion that since few / no devs are talking about their killer app, just their killer emu - that it somehow proves it's a gaming device, and not a UMPC.
B )
As has been pointed out - there are huge lists of what emus are being ported - what GP2X games are being revamped - what systems will be seen on a handheld for the first time. That's great. But where are the browser updates? Where are the lists of what media types will play and which won't? Where are the office apps? Where is the chat client? Where is the freaking Operating System?!?!?
C )
How can people claim to be working on the Pandora version of their emulator when there's no hint of an operating system? Yeah, I know - it's Linux. So's my TiVo - that doesn't mean you can port NESter to it.
D )
As AireTamStorm pointed out - if all the focus is on gaming - that's all you'll get. Listen, guys, the gaming stuff is pretty much a given. Whatever OS the Pandora has - all the systems available on the GP2X will be ported in no time, and the newer systems will be worked out as well. There are plenty of Devs on these forums to get that taken care of. But what about the other stuff?

A, the emulators ARE killer apps. Plain and simple, the Pandora is the first generation where we will actually be getting full speed SNES (and PS1) out of the box.
B, All media that plays on Linux will play. If the OS gets a package management system like I'm hoping, nobody will have to worry about any of that.
C, You answered your own question. Who says you can't port NESter to TiVo?
D, Do not put words in my mouth. I said that I'd rather the Pandora itself act like a UMPC rather than a console, because it would be a plus to the UMPC crowd and not a minus to the gaming crowd. At very minimum, I expect a browser, word processor, chat, music and video out of the box. If I don't get that in one form or another, I start working on another firmware.

From what I've read on these forums - people do see the GP2X / GP32 as aging niche gaming consoles.
When the non-gaming community - or at least the not-on-this-forum-at-the-moment community can actually get their hands on it physically - they will come to the forums. they will offer code. They will write apps.
At least I hope they do - I hope the Operating System can handle it.

My GP2X isn't an aging niche console- its just a niche console. My biggest disappointment was the media players, inputs, and lack of WiFi. With a Pandora I know I could actually spend hours building my own OS for it and actually come up with something "useful". You have to realize that people are working on the OS for this device, and that OS is going to have base applications. You can't say that noone here is working on applications, or that everyone is working on gaming. PSX is the most hyped app on this system, and the only "real" application being hyped for the Pandora is Firefox 3, which is done less so by such a magnitude that it has nearly fallen off the radar. Finally, There isn't anything that Linux cannot potentially do on embedded platforms that it can on a fully blown desktop or server. You will likely see some amazing things out of Linux on the Pandora. For me, its the biggest feature.

I like open source stuff - I use it. I was a very active member of the OpenOffice.org users/dev/planning scene for years. (Google for Chad W Smith and openoffice.org if you don't believe me.) I just know that OOo wouldn't be where it is today if it didn't [a] start with a paid program (StarOffice back in the day was completely closed source) and have a company actively promoting, developing, and paying for it (Sun Microsystems). The boring work gets done by paid developers. I don't expect people to just make the software I need out of the kindness of their own hearts. Especially if they aren't being encouraged to do so.

[EDIT] I don't *expect* them to do so - but when they do (and it happens - often) - I am grateful. /edit

While part of OOo's success came from a commercial product (much like Firefox to a degree) there are programs that have started from scratch as open source and have done even crazier things. Take the Linux Kernel, for example.

Chad, all said and done, I cannot wait to write my own stuff for the Pandora. I'll probably start by porting StepMania to it (TV out, USB in? It can be done!!!) and later doing my own planned game. In parallel to that, I will be coding my own small applications in order to hone my skills. But while I imagine myself whipping it out and using it as a network swiss army knife, I can see myself gaming away on it when I get home.

Ultimately the most important thing that all of you are forgetting is that the Pandora will go to work with you and be useful, then come home with you and be fun. This, I believe, is the very goal of the entire project.

Stop bickering.

 

[Megamixman]

Stop bickering.

Considering some people are probably/likely replacing their spouses with a Pandora, i think bickering is completely allowed. Just do it with your Pandora and not the Pandora Forums.

 

[CandidStan]

I agree with the thread starter, people really need to shut up about all of this UMPC vs. gaming stuff. The Pandora was founded as a gaming console. It's a huge aspect that draws many people to it. Great. But by the same token, Craig and co. have given this thing capable enough hardware to become not only an awesome handheld console, but a kickass UMPC, too. For that, we should all be grateful.

I'm going to be quite frank when I say that the above is all we really know about the Pandora. We know it's hardware specs and design, the rest is up to us. I think many people who complain about the supposed "lack" of UMPC abilities on the Pandora just haven't embraced the power of (or simply have never experienced,) open-source software development. People will make awesome games. People will make awesome emulators. People will make awesome PDA and UMPC apps. They just haven't yet.

My point is, don't bitch about stuff that doesn't exist. It's got the potential to exist, and it will someday soon. Well, provided the damn thing comes out soon!



You my friend have just agreed with the benheck FDSMAN.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

*Drops Jaw* You're kidding me. :lol:

Anyways, they banned you before my rise to moderation power, so we're cool, right?

 

[CandidStan]

*Drops Jaw* You're kidding me. :lol:

Anyways, they banned you before my rise to moderation power, so we're cool, right?

Yeah I think so, Its been 4 or 5 years since then, so I've grown up a bit. As you can see I type in whole sentences and use correct punctuation. (for the most part)

 

[Sphinxter]

Man I see stuff like that and start to think there might be a shot at world peace.

 

[chad78]

Chad, you've got the wrong idea about this community. Just take a look at some of the misc. apps made for the GP2X.
*jaw drops*

Sits in the corner and shuts up now.