Pyra as full mobile phone replacement?

[scippie]

So I'm still very interested in getting the Pyra, and now I saw somewhere that you will be able to use it as a phone too!
But something I didn't read anywhere in the forum is: will it be able to receive calls?

I mean: it will be in the pocket a lot of the time, probably in some kind of standby mode (as I am used of doing it with the Pandora). Will it be able to wake up on a phone call and make some noise (and even vibrate) when someone calls me?

On an old thread, I read that it will not be good enough to do calls using the internal mic/speakers. Why is that? The pandora has great sound quality and the mic is just fine. Is it just in need of good filtering techniques or is the hardware not good enough for it? It would be so great if you could put it on a desk (low noise environment of course) and make calls with it hands/headset free...

 

[Binky]

All the hardware to do telephony is there. The audio lines to the 3G modem are connected, there's a microphone, speaker, and bluetooth hardware if you want to use a headset. There's a vibration motor, and full software control over the speaker volume.

Software is another matter. For the first year or so (at a guess) the software for using your pyra as a phone will probably very clunky. There was some suggestion of porting tools from maemo, I think? Getting it to work at a proof-of-concept level shouldn't be too hard.

Using the Pyra as a handset is unlikely to be comfortable or practical, though. Hence the talk of bluetooth headsets.

A quick search of the boards here should reveal a few other threads discussing the same possibility.

Merry Christmas (or winter solstice festival of your choice) !

 

[scippie]

I understand all of that and actually kind of already knew, but the question is more specific (and maybe not clear enough): can it receive calls. I might even be interested in writing code myself for this if the software is cluncky, that's not the point.

But:
- Will the battery be able to sustain for a whole day or more with the device in the pocket to receive calls.
- Will the battery be able to do this and also give enough power to play some games, write some texts, surf some web, ...
- Does the modem signal the device when a call is received, and
- does it do this also when the device is in standby or in any other low power mode that is able to activate a higher power mode to show that there's an incoming call.
- Will it be able to do all those things within a usable timespan. I mean: if the caller is already listening to beeps for 10 seconds before you are able to answer it on your Pyra, you will miss a lot of calls.

In other words: ED can tell us all with big enthousiasm that the hardware is there for everything we want to do, but if the combination is flawed on some level, you can't use it for that purpose.

The reason for my asking is: I have had the same Android phone for 5 years now. Can't find a better replacement. I think the Pyra is too expensive for what I am probably going to do with it (not saying it's too expensive) because I tend to buy things that I don't use enough to justify the cost. So if this thing can - in time or with some effort from myself - become the new piece of hardware in my pocket for being reachable, THAT would be the perfect reason for me to pay for it.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

The modem will likely send a signal, but when the Pyra first comes out there may be no software to interpret that signal and make a sound or vibrate. However one of the prototype buyers might code something.

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

If you opened this thread after my answer here let me clarify it is only an "idea" I had: PCB without keyboard/nubs, mainboard with daughterboard and battery. Then hack the mic and phones to addapt it to a "phone friendly" shape and find a tactile screen of the same size (or bigger) of the boards. It surely going to be a "fat" thing but I have been searching for a full linux phone for long time ago and it seems to be a cool "solution".

 

[tigerroast]

I know this topic will keep popping up, but I love when it does. The Pyra as my go-to communications device would be so powerful for me. I bet it would be for you as well.

- Will the battery be able to sustain for a whole day or more with the device in the pocket to receive calls.

Based on the preliminary info about its power usage (bigger battery than Pandora, uses less power for the same tasks, bigger processor uses more power overall), the general consensus is that it'll get around the same 10-12hrs the Pandora can. The skeptical/conservative estimate is ~8hrs.

So, not quite all day, but there could be some power-saving improvements down-the-line.

- Will the battery be able to do this and also give enough power to play some games, write some texts, surf some web, ...

It has been shown before that multitasking on OMAP5 isn't an issue, so we're cool there.

- Does the modem signal the device when a call is received, and
- does it do this also when the device is in standby or in any other low power mode that is able to activate a higher power mode to show that there's an incoming call.
- Will it be able to do all those things within a usable timespan. I mean: if the caller is already listening to beeps for 10 seconds before you are able to answer it on your Pyra, you will miss a lot of calls.

That's all up to software, as mentioned earlier.

In other words: ED can tell us all with big enthousiasm that the hardware is there for everything we want to do, but if the combination is flawed on some level, you can't use it for that purpose.

Well, just as many others here will tell you the same, the Pyra can't be used much for this purpose, at least out the gate. That is, unless one of the prototype OS devs spends 1800 years in the lab making a telephony system that would make Google blush.

On an old thread, I read that it will not be good enough to do calls using the internal mic/speakers. Why is that?

I'd bet my bottom dollar that using the Pyra on speakerphone would prompt anyone on the other side of the call to reach through the Pyra and punch me as hard as they can. There's no secondary mic for noise cancellation, and even in a low noise environment, the other caller's voice might get fed back to them through the speakers without proper filtering.

Personally, I'm comfortable with the idea of wearing wireless earphones for extended periods of time. With a portable device this big, I really think you should be comfortable with that idea as well.

 

[levi]

Based on the preliminary info about its power usage (bigger battery than Pandora, uses less power for the same tasks, bigger processor uses more power overall), the general consensus is that it'll get around the same 10-12hrs the Pandora can. The skeptical/conservative estimate is ~8hrs.

So, not quite all day, but there could be some power-saving improvements down-the-line.

My Pandora lasts over 48 hours not suspended, but idle. Now the my Pyra will probably get more use than my old Pandora, and the whole cell chip will need to be active, unlike my Pandora with wifi, bt, usb 5v, and underclocked to 600MHz much of the time.

But yeah, using the original run-time of the Pandora, 10-12 hrs all in might be a good initial ballpark estimate for Pyra battery life IMO.

 

[scippie]

It has been shown before that multitasking on OMAP5 isn't an issue, so we're cool there.

I wasn't talking about mulitasking: I mean, my Pandora can be kept powered up (no standby) for 40 hours or so, so if the Pyra can do this with its cell unit enabled, we're probably good. What I'm talking about is that say if the Pyra can only remain running with cell unit for 4 hours (just an example), then you won't be able to do much other fun on the device as its battery will be drained after 2 hours.

That's all up to software, as mentioned earlier.

Well, I don't agree. That's not ONLY up to the software. If for example the signal isn't able to wake up the device, then it will be useless as a low power standby phone. And if waking up the device itself takes 2 seconds, then the caller is already waiting for 5 seconds before you even know someone is calling. Those things are hardware limitations and no software can solve it. Software can only make it worse when badly coded.

There's no secondary mic for noise cancellation, and even in a low noise environment, the other caller's voice might get fed back to them through the speakers without proper filtering.

That's where software can do a lot. My Surface Pro 4 has no secondary mic and does the noise cancellation on Skype greatly. Yes, from time to time it fails, but it's usually very good. Same goes for my only-one-mic laptop. Same goes for my Sony Xperia Z phone when put on speaker. A secondary mic. would probably improve this, but it's not necessary.

 

[hns]

there is a wire going from the 4g modem to the omap5 which can wake it up from suspend to ram mode or idle on incoming calls or SMS.

We do not know how low we can get power consumption in idle or suspend but the modem draws around 3-10 mA while staying connected to the network and being able to respond to incoming calls.

Regarding software, there are multiple options:
* Replicant
* QtMoko
* Debian + FSO
just to name some. They all need polishing to be adjusted to the Pyra hardware hooks (e.g. display resolution, hardware addresses of accelerometer/position detector).

 

[scippie]

there is a wire going from the 4g modem to the omap5 which can wake it up from suspend to ram mode or idle on incoming calls or SMS.

We do not know how low we can get power consumption in idle or suspend but the modem draws around 3-10 mA while staying connected to the network and being able to respond to incoming calls.

Those are more the answers I was looking for. Too bad so much is not yet known, which is understandable of course.

I guess the message is: wait until tested by eager people or take the risk and try it out.

 

[Murakami]

Well, I guess it wouldn't hurt to keep your old phone around before dropping it in favor of the Pyra. Curious to see how the Pyra performs in that regard though.

I personally would keep mine anyway and not use the Pyra in that way.

 

[RubisDrake]

I also agree that the Pyra seems very impractical to use as a mobile device. It's hard to hold in your hand, then hold it up to your ear, and have that combination make you look like a normally functioning human being.

So in the meantime, the mobile device is mostly useful for GPS, or doing SMS, but it's hard to use a dialer. You could use a VoIP or SIP dialer with this thing very easily, as there's already free software for that, and you'd just have a daemon running to receive those calls. VoIP and SIP can also handle voice mail, and visual voice mail a little bit easier.

But as the way the hardware is designed, it's pretty bulky--it's a clamshell design--you can't fit it in your pocket, so you need a fanny pack when you're out walking. The touchscreen is resistive now, according to the specs, so it's going to be harder to press unless it's designed perfectly well, and there's not a lot of bands, so no roaming, no dual SIMs. You can't use it very well internationally if that's a concern.

If you want to use a mobile device that you can hack and play with, and even request customized hardware from, let me redirect you to Golden Delicious, makers of the GTA04 motherboard: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/

That's like the only option you have. Don't buy their default motherboard though, they use proprietary firmware for their Bluetooth and Wi-Fi, and it doesn't have a camera installed by default. You'd probably want to ask for a different BT/Wi-Fi chip, and ask them to install a camera for you.

 

[scippie]

Great and interesting post, but not at all an answer to my OP. I'm not at all looking for a new mobile phone. I'm just looking for more than one excuse to buy THIS device and I was hoping it would do as a crappy but usable phone.

"you can't fit it in your pocket"? What happened to one of the selling points: "and yes it will fit your pocket"?

 

[RubisDrake]

Don't be delusional. You can't make up excuses for things that aren't there yet. What you see in the specs is what you get in terms of hardware when you buy. And, of course, you get a decent community in the back working on the software as well!

You could try to fit it in your pocket, but it's 32 mm, which is about 1.25 inches. Go ahead and measure that. You may be able to fit it in your pocket, but try sitting down with it. This is coming from someone who uses a Samsung Galaxy Note 4 daily. I had to actually get a new case for my phone because it was a little hard to sit down with an Otterbox Defender on it, and very hard to pull my phone back out of my pocket.

 

[levi]

It's a bit of a semantic quandry IMO. Based on my Pandora, I can fit it in my jeans pocket, but not out on a summer's day when I also need to carry keys+wallet etc. And it does stick out of the top slightly. But in winter it fits fine in my coat pockets.

But I didn't see anyone saying it'd fit in any pocket as a selling point without heavy qualification, so I tend to think anyone that expected it to be that small. If anyone claims to have been mislead, I think they must have heavily misread something.

 

[tigerroast]

What I'm talking about is that say if the Pyra can only remain running with cell unit for 4 hours (just an example), then you won't be able to do much other fun on the device as its battery will be drained after 2 hours.

Ahh, okay, my apologies. My worthless guess is that the modem doesn't hit the battery very hard, but that's something that has to be discovered when prototype testing is underway.

ED stress-tested the CPU-board before, but I have no idea if he stress-tested a mobile Pyra or not.

Well, I don't agree. That's not ONLY up to the software. If for example the signal isn't able to wake up the device, then it will be useless as a low power standby phone. And if waking up the device itself takes 2 seconds, then the caller is already waiting for 5 seconds before you even know someone is calling. Those things are hardware limitations and no software can solve it. Software can only make it worse when badly coded.

That is true, but as mentioned earlier by the one and only, hardware's really not the issue. I was trying to convey that point, but you really have no reason to consider some random(s) very credible in this regard.

That's where software can do a lot. My Surface Pro 4 has no secondary mic and does the noise cancellation on Skype greatly. Yes, from time to time it fails, but it's usually very good. Same goes for my only-one-mic laptop. Same goes for my Sony Xperia Z phone when put on speaker. A secondary mic. would probably improve this, but it's not necessary.

Well, if worst comes to worst, then some ear/headphones will do...actually, that's a bad attitude. I hope noise cancellation can be done in a clean manner on the Pyra for those who want to use speaker-mode calling.

I also agree that the Pyra seems very impractical to use as a mobile device. It's hard to hold in your hand, then hold it up to your ear, and have that combination make you look like a normally functioning human being.

What original thinker would hold the Pyra to their head though? Earphones w/mic+controller make hands-free calling effortless. Honestly, if smartphone companies do away with the ear speaker like they're doing away with the 3.5mm jack, then I would lose not an ounce of sleep.

So in the meantime, the mobile device is mostly useful for GPS, or doing SMS, but it's hard to use a dialer.

Unless voice-dialing on Pyra gets squared away early, or Pebble can be easily used on the Pyra. Two avenues to ease-of-use that aren't out of the realm of impossibility.

But as the way the hardware is designed, it's pretty bulky--it's a clamshell design--you can't fit it in your pocket, so you need a fanny pack when you're out walking.

Unless you already carry a bag everywhere. Anyone who lives where it's always cold wears bulkier clothes anyway, so there's even more carry options if a Pyra can't fit into close-fitting pants pockets, particularly an inner pocket of a jacket or coat.

The touchscreen is resistive now, according to the specs, so it's going to be harder to press unless it's designed perfectly well,

We'll see. According to ED, it's comparable to the Pandora, so I suppose we have a preliminary baseline.

...and there's not a lot of bands, so no roaming, no dual SIMs. You can't use it very well internationally if that's a concern.

Only a concern if you have a US Pyra. The EU module plays nicely abroad, in comparison.

If you want to use a mobile device that you can hack and play with, and even request customized hardware from, let me redirect you to Golden Delicious, makers of the GTA04 motherboard: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/

That's like the only option you have. Don't buy their default motherboard though, they use proprietary firmware for their Bluetooth and Wi-Fi, and it doesn't have a camera installed by default. You'd probably want to ask for a different BT/Wi-Fi chip, and ask them to install a camera for you.

Ouch. Didn't even give the Pyra a chance to come out of the gate and mature.

 

[Penguin-Guru]

My plan for software is Linphone. To be fair, it's a bad plan but liblinphone seems to be the best option by far. I have been fighting the urge to put down money toward a fork of Linphone or an alternative LibLinphone front-end, which could easily be designed to accommodate smaller displays. If anyone here plans to work on this, send me a P.M. first. I actually plan to use SIP for the most part but I have notes on telephony software somewhere and I believe it connects best with LibLinphone. I'll share my notes when I come across them again but I'm sure people here know more than I do anyway. Looking to seeing what the early receivers come up with.

Do confirm local carrier radio frequency spectrums and the method to register new phones with your current telco provider, if applicable.
[doublepost=1482828188,1482827889][/doublepost]Bluetooth earpiece shouldn't be a problem but we're going to want a button to answer and terminate calls so the Pyra can stay in our pockets for the most part. Ideally the button could also be used to initiate voice command for dialing, as was default for Jawbone products. I am not aware of any existing linux programs designed to serve this purpose but voice command services probably exist for some wired headsets... Hopefully...

 

[second exodous]

I really think the only way this will work is a smart watch/Bluetooth earpiece combination.

The Pyra is kinda bulky to pull out for EVERY phone call/SMS, especially just to see who it is, so a smart watch can show you what is coming through and maybe a quick reply can be done on the smart watch and when it needs more the Pyra can be pulled out. The headset, or earpiece or whatever pretty much needs to be used for voice calls.

I'd be happy with this combo, I really would like a full OS in my pocket rather than Android or iOS. With a smart watch using the Pyra as a phone would be ideal.

 

[0x14f]

I really think the only way this will work is a smart watch/Bluetooth earpiece combination.

The Pyra is kinda bulky to pull out for EVERY phone call/SMS, especially just to see who it is, so a smart watch can show you what is coming through and maybe a quick reply can be done on the smart watch and when it needs more the Pyra can be pulled out. The headset, or earpiece or whatever pretty much needs to be used for voice calls.

I'd be happy with this combo, I really would like a full OS in my pocket rather than Android or iOS. With a smart watch using the Pyra as a phone would be ideal.

It's probably the most realistic usecase for calls for me also. Obvious downsides are:
-you need to charge all this stuff every day so your wall plug will look like a cthulhu and you will look like a mad professor plugging all the wires before you go to sleep
-you need to assess how stable and power efficient bluetooth connection is before you throw out your main phone

Another interesting thing to consider when speaking about pyra phones is security. Debian publicity people describe their security as "we try, guys" https://www.debian.org/security/ but you need to maintain that (manually?). There also could be attacks executed through poorly written netwoking components in apps the community uses as well as hardware vulnerabilities, e.g. in wifi (not sure if it's possible to hijack bluetooth, but can't see a reason why not).

I consider pyra phone a very interesting hobby project with tons of fun things to explore and research, but I wouldn't use it as a real 100% replacement until there is at least somewhat decent assessment of security (so you won't become a moving proxy DDoS machine on wheels) and stability (you want to be able to call 911 asap when it's needed).

 

[lukey]

Another interesting thing to consider when speaking about pyra phones is security. Debian publicity people describe their security as "we try, guys" https://www.debian.org/security/ but you need to maintain that (manually?). <snip>

I consider pyra phone a very interesting hobby project with tons of fun things to explore and research, but I wouldn't use it as a real 100% replacement until there is at least somewhat decent assessment of security (so you won't become a moving proxy DDoS machine on wheels) and stability (you want to be able to call 911 asap when it's needed).

Think again.