Pandora's Design

[Tobriand]

Well, if you're after the average Joe's opinion, go ask them!

Send someone out with a mockup on x-mas eve to a mall, and ask randoms if, if something that looked like Pandora were on sale next Christmas, and could play Psx, N64, and everything earlier games, whilst at the same time letting you use office functions and browse the web, would they buy it?

If the balance of responses is "no, it looks ugly", then it might be worth trying to prettify a bit. If it's "yes, despite that it looks ugly", then you can be relatively sure it won't seem ugly forever, just different until it's a more common sight.

And if it's "yes, it's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, oh my God Pandora I want to father your unborn children" then it's probably worth keeping it as it is

 

[gp2x.info]

I think it's ok, it may not win a beauty contest, but who cares?
A few simple changes can make it look better.

For instance: decrease font size on the keyboard, the VERY BIG symbols
make it look cheap.

Also the used materials/plastics will make the difference. If they're good,
and the controls are comfortable, this will be awesome...

 

[migo]

Add me to the hate it side.

The keyboard is shit, whoever designed it obviously doesn't have a clue about keyboards and was just throwing it in to have it. It also gets in the way of good placement of the analog sticks/buds/whatever they are. The keyboard is also pointless as all the systems that use keyboards are old school and don't need advanced hardware to emulate. If you're going to focus on N64 and PS1 emulation (which the PSP already does...) then you'll want to have good control layout. Neither make use of a keyboard, so it's a largely useless feature to have. If they could figure out a way for the keyboard to not suck in design and also not be in the way of good controls, then it would be ok to include.

On the other hand, I like the clamshell design, being able to tilt the screen and hold the controls to liking is an advantage.

Dualshock control layout would be easy to do. N64 support would be a bit harder but could also be done.

6 face buttons instead of 4, and 4 shoulder buttons (laid out like [ ][ ]_______[ ][ ] on the back), a good D-Pad and 2 clickable analog sticks positioned where the keyboard is would be much better.

Using the touch screen on the top is going to be awkard. The screen should be the same thickness as the other half so that it's more comfortable to hold.

 

[hal9000]

if the keyboard was a bit smaller, or the case was a bit larger then it wouldn't be a problem. Watch some of the youtube videos and you'll see that you can't really use the dpad and buttons without having part of your palm rest on top of the keys. I don't fancy straining my hands to try to keep off and use the device at some funny angle.

You don't need to watch the videos, you can try with your GP2X. DPad and button positions are similar.

With average adult male sized hands, it is clear that it is not am problem. If you put your thumbs in position, there is no way to put a significant pressure on, let's say, the speakers.

With very small hands, I don't know. But I don't think it would really make a difference.

Of course the keyboard should not be too sensitive. It should have the sensitivity of joypad buttons, not of a PC keyboard.

 

[Yuglooc]

Add me to the hate it side.

The keyboard is shit, whoever designed it obviously doesn't have a clue about keyboards and was just throwing it in to have it. It also gets in the way of good placement of the analog sticks/buds/whatever they are. The keyboard is also pointless as all the systems that use keyboards are old school and don't need advanced hardware to emulate. If you're going to focus on N64 and PS1 emulation (which the PSP already does...) then you'll want to have good control layout. Neither make use of a keyboard, so it's a largely useless feature to have. If they could figure out a way for the keyboard to not suck in design and also not be in the way of good controls, then it would be ok to include.

On the other hand, I like the clamshell design, being able to tilt the screen and hold the controls to liking is an advantage.

Dualshock control layout would be easy to do. N64 support would be a bit harder but could also be done.

6 face buttons instead of 4, and 4 shoulder buttons (laid out like [ ][ ]_______[ ][ ] on the back), a good D-Pad and 2 clickable analog sticks positioned where the keyboard is would be much better.

Using the touch screen on the top is going to be awkard. The screen should be the same thickness as the other half so that it's more comfortable to hold.

It's an allaround machine with gaming compability. Noone said they are focusing on PSX/N64. Just that it should be CAPABLE to handle it. How can you say the keyboard is useless when you can have it for email, document creation, linux game controls, browsing the internet, AND play oldschool games. The rest of the post (except for the little line of clamshell praise) is rant due to the fact that the gaming controls are badly placed of lacking buttons. HOW CAN YOU KNOW THAT THEY ARE BADLY PLACED IF YOU HAVE NOT HOLD ONE IN YOUR HAND. I made a mockup to see if it would be comfortable, and it was, so there. and about it lacking buttons, frankly what games use 6 face button, it's like fighting games and obscure genesis games. About the dual shoulder buttons, MWeston has spoken out about the fact that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

Migo, you have started to come across as a whiny nerd who can't be bothered to read what is possible to change and what is not before posting. First Dvorak, now this. Sigh

 

[MWeston]

Add me to the hate it side.

The keyboard is shit, whoever designed it obviously doesn't have a clue about keyboards and was just throwing it in to have it. It also gets in the way of good placement of the analog sticks/buds/whatever they are. The keyboard is also pointless as all the systems that use keyboards are old school and don't need advanced hardware to emulate. If you're going to focus on N64 and PS1 emulation (which the PSP already does...) then you'll want to have good control layout. Neither make use of a keyboard, so it's a largely useless feature to have. If they could figure out a way for the keyboard to not suck in design and also not be in the way of good controls, then it would be ok to include.

Using the touch screen on the top is going to be awkard. The screen should be the same thickness as the other half so that it's more comfortable to hold.

Okay, I need to protest this. I'm not going to get into everything as there are plenty of topics that do, but I'd like to analyze your analog nub comment.

Here's what I'd like you to do. If you can, take a piece of paper (or even try the cardboard cutout thing) and draw the analog nubs to scale and position. Draw a rectangle of 140x83mm. See how it feels. Then draw them moved down into the keypad area. Try straight down, maybe shove them in the corners or even worse, stick them in the middle. Now, try to reach the shoulder buttons on an 83mm long device and see where the optimal distance is. I think you will find that they are positioned well because they are close as they can be to the standard position where all systems put the dpad and ABXY buttons for nominal comfort with most users. Moving from the standard game control position to the nubs is minimal and within any adult's reach. In fact I think that this setup is much more comfortable than those DS games that make you use the screen to move around. I walk away from those in a real hurry!


** The nubs are positioned 33mm from the back edge to the center. They are each 46mm in from side edge to center. The nub wheel has a 15mm diameter.


P.S. the lid section should not be as thick as the base, nor should it be as heavy as possible because this would become uncomfortable very quickly due to poor weight distribution. From what I hear that iRiver game system that is being re-introduced has this problem which is too bad for them

 

[hal9000]

The keyboard is also pointless as all the systems that use keyboards are old school and don't need advanced hardware to emulate.

Amiga is not full-speed on any current handheld. It is considered by many as the most interesting platform to emulate. Furthermore, it is clear that many people are interested in its OMPC capabilities. Personnaly, I think that 300 euros would be a bit expensive for a N64 emulator.

 

[migo]

It's an allaround machine with gaming compability. Noone said they are focusing on PSX/N64. Just that it should be CAPABLE to handle it.

No point in having hardware capable of handling it if the controls can't allow you to make good use of it.

QUOTE
How can you say the keyboard is useless when you can have it for email, document creation, linux game controls, browsing the internet, AND play oldschool games.


You can't. The keyboard on the Pandora specifically is useless. The keys are completely flat with no spacing between them. They should be rounded like on a blackberry or treo. The staggered design also gets in the way, the keys should be lined up properly, like on a treo or blackberry. You're not going to be able to type on it because you'll be pressing keys you don't intend to, while you're typing. If it's the size of the DS, it's only going to be useful with your thumbs, unless you're a kid, in which case it's going to be quite useless for document creation. Playing games with the keys isn't fun either, even on thumboards with good designs, it doesn't work.

QUOTE
The rest of the post (except for the little line of clamshell praise) is rant due to the fact that the gaming controls are badly placed of lacking buttons. HOW CAN YOU KNOW THAT THEY ARE BADLY PLACED IF YOU HAVE NOT HOLD ONE IN YOUR HAND.


The Dual Shock, Sixaxis, Xbox S-Controller, Xbox 360 controller, GameCube controller and Wii Classic controller ALL have the analog sticks angled down, instead of right beside the controlls. This is because of how the thumb moves in a windshield wiper motion.

QUOTE
I made a mockup to see if it would be comfortable, and it was, so there.


You can't play games for an extended period of time on a mockup to see if it doesn't cramp your hands up. I'll trust the combined wisdom of Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo over some hobbyists who decided to get into producing a game machine.

QUOTE

and about it lacking buttons, frankly what games use 6 face button, it's like fighting games and obscure genesis games. About the dual shoulder buttons, MWeston has spoken out about the fact that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.


The N64 has 6 face buttons. Having capability of emulating it without giving it the controls to make use of it is pointless.

QUOTE

Migo, you have started to come across as a whiny nerd who can't be bothered to read what is possible to change and what is not before posting. First Dvorak, now this. Sigh



Doesn't matter whether it's "possible" or not, the design as is sucks. The keyboard has so much wrong with it it's completely pointless, and gets in the way of good placement of the analog sticks. Whatever the reasons for 2 shoulder buttons are, the devs should find a way to make 4 of them work.

 

[b._.o._.b]

It amazes me that there are still (a minority) people asking to ditch the keyboard. The ability to have it all, and a keyboard and touch screen and d-pad are its best features.
If you don't want that buy a psp or be happy with the gp2x.
A sliding keyboard would have been nice (and I think most would have preferred that), but I can't think of any other major improvement.

Good job on the team, and I'm sure it will sell like hot cakes. The specs are amazing and it will get a bigger audience than the gp2x for sure.
I only hope no other company will come with something similar before the Pandora is launched.

 

[A_SN]

-Those of you saying "I'm not buying now!" are idiots. Go away. Seriously, wtf? You were all drooling over the specs and now it's the "bling" that puts you off? So what if it doesn't look like it was shat from the holy anus of the Crystal Goddess. You want an apple PC or an iPhone, go get one. Lemme know when Apple decides to let you use it.

You're the idiot. We're not going to buy something for 300 euros if it looks awful and if the touchscreen is crippled by design.

Well, if you're after the average Joe's opinion, go ask them!

Send someone out with a mockup on x-mas eve to a mall, and ask randoms if, if something that looked like Pandora were on sale next Christmas, and could play Psx, N64, and everything earlier games, whilst at the same time letting you use office functions and browse the web, would they buy it?

If the balance of responses is "no, it looks ugly", then it might be worth trying to prettify a bit. If it's "yes, despite that it looks ugly", then you can be relatively sure it won't seem ugly forever, just different until it's a more common sight.

And if it's "yes, it's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, oh my God Pandora I want to father your unborn children" then it's probably worth keeping it as it is

What, you mean actually studying the market before launching a product? This doesn't make any sense, are you out of your mind!?

 

[migo]

Here's what I'd like you to do. If you can, take a piece of paper (or even try the cardboard cutout thing) and draw the analog nubs to scale and position. Draw a rectangle of 140x83mm. See how it feels. Then draw them moved down into the keypad area. Try straight down, maybe shove them in the corners or even worse, stick them in the middle. Now, try to reach the shoulder buttons on an 83mm long device and see where the optimal distance is. I think you will find that they are positioned well because they are close as they can be to the standard position where all systems put the dpad and ABXY buttons for nominal comfort with most users. Moving from the standard game control position to the nubs is minimal and within any adult's reach. In fact I think that this setup is much more comfortable than those DS games that make you use the screen to move around. I walk away from those in a real hurry!

Look at the videos that have already been posted, to reach the analog nub you have to stretch your thumb out, it's no longer in a relaxed position. It'll cramp up quite quickly if you're actually playing that way. Also, you're extending your thumb fully to reach the nub at a center positoin, which is going to make it hard to move.


QUOTE

P.S. the lid section should not be as thick as the base, nor should it be as heavy as possible because this would become uncomfortable very quickly due to poor weight distribution. From what I hear that iRiver game system that is being re-introduced has this problem which is too bad for them



Thickness won't directly affect the weight, and if the screen is thinner then the heavier weight from the bottom part will make it unwieldy, and also put strain on the hinges, having it thinner will also make it harder to hold.

 

[___]

@migo: Yeah now you want us to cut the keyboard... what about your precious dvorak? Not happy anymore?

 

[Yuglooc]

It's an allaround machine with gaming compability. Noone said they are focusing on PSX/N64. Just that it should be CAPABLE to handle it.

No point in having hardware capable of handling it if the controls can't allow you to make good use of it.

QUOTE
How can you say the keyboard is useless when you can have it for email, document creation, linux game controls, browsing the internet, AND play oldschool games.


You can't. The keyboard on the Pandora specifically is useless. The keys are completely flat with no spacing between them. They should be rounded like on a blackberry or treo. The staggered design also gets in the way, the keys should be lined up properly, like on a treo or blackberry. You're not going to be able to type on it because you'll be pressing keys you don't intend to, while you're typing. If it's the size of the DS, it's only going to be useful with your thumbs, unless you're a kid, in which case it's going to be quite useless for document creation. Playing games with the keys isn't fun either, even on thumboards with good designs, it doesn't work.

How bout not using just your thumbs ;D

 

[b._.o._.b]

I'll trust the combined wisdom of Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo over some hobbyists who decided to get into producing a game machine.

Sorry but with this remark you've lost all credibility IMO. I think you belong in a more mainstream club. You really don't understand what happens here.

 

[Lobo]

Let's see: first off the sad fact is that there are a large number of people who will NOT buy it because it's not shiny/rounded/black/spaceage looking. Even I was taken aback when I saw the renders and had to remind myself of the specs, but like I said, there will be quite a few people who will be completely put off. Beauty is only skin deep and all, but you'd rather be shagging a model!

Second, I would really like a second set of shoulder buttons too (yes I'm thinking PSX emulation). Even playing Abes Odyssee on the GP2X is a pain in the arse because it lacks the extra shoulder buttons. It's too late now to moan about this apparently, but the designers really should have added them since I think it was fairly obvious that the most likely futures emus (PSX, N64, even FPS games) would have really benefited (and in the case of PSX they're damn near mandatory).


My €0.02.

 

[javaJake]

I think it was fairly obvious that the most likely futures emus (PSX, N64, even FPS games) would have really benefited (and in the case of PSX they're damn near mandatory).

The designers discussed it and came to the conclusion it isn't as "near mandatory" as people think, and it should be perfectly fine remapping to some other easily-used key.

You're the idiot. We're not going to buy something for 300 euros if it looks awful and if the touchscreen is crippled by design.

It's been said before, it's been replied to (IOW, it's been discussed before) and on top of that you're flaming again. Please stop making these kinds of posts.

Thank you.

 

[chris_r]

I'm sure the panda has already got enough buttons with the keyboard. I'm sure you'll find a comfortable replacement for all those buttons on the keyboard.
As for n64 emulation, why do you need another set of triggers? N64 only had one pair of triggers

And fps? Well I cant see what you want a second set of triggers for?
Move - left analog
Aim - Right analog
Fire - Right Trigger
Change Weapons - keyboard
Map - Keyboard
Or have I missed some extra features of FPS that I've never heard of? The panda could even take a page from metroid prime on the ds and use the touchscreen for FPS.

MWeston already stated that adding an extra set of triggers would most probably take up internal space where the battery should be. So I'd much rather prefer longer battery life than another redundant set of buttons.

 

[Lobo]

The designers discussed it and came to the conclusion it isn't as "near mandatory" as people think, and it should be perfectly fine remapping to some other easily-used key.

Well that's a shame because of the top of my head I think of at least 10 popular games where it is critical (amongst others most any FPShooter you care to think of, not to mention Abe). Well, it's too late now so I'll just let it go I guess.

 

[Karel Jansens]

You're the idiot. We're not going to buy something for 300 euros if it looks awful and if the touchscreen is crippled by design.

What exactly is crippled in the design of the touchscreen? (this is an actual question, not flamebait)

 

[chris_r]

I just noticed a small lip on the screen in this pic
http://openpandora.ca/images/pandblack04.jpg

Is that to hold the stylus or is it purely aesthetic?