Pandora "keyboard Edition"

[danboid]

I know there have been many posts along the lines of "Please remove the keyboard from the Pandora" so I'm trying re-dress the balance a bit with this thread

In opposition to those saying "Why do we need a keyboard?" there are also those such as myself who would much rather scrap the joypad entirely to make way for a bigger and better integrated keyboard which offers all the keys a Linux user requires (ie dedicated keys for TAB, CTRL, ALT, punctuation etc.) which would also make life easier for those who need non-English characters and accents. I should imagine interest in such a configuration has been heightened by the recent videos of Ubuntu/GNOME running very nicely indeed on a similar OMAP device to the Pandora?

Before you all flame me to death, note that I am NOT suggesting any modifications to the current Pandora design because I am well aware that is all but finalised now. Instead, what I'm suggesting/asking is IF

* The normal Pandora is a success (what kind of sales would be required to call it a 'success' I'm not sure)

AND

* Enough people are more interested in using the Pandora as a pocket Linux workstation rather than an emulation or gaming device

Then I would very much hope that team Pandora would seriously consider releasing a Pandora "Keyboard edition" which is exactly the same, hardware wise, as the normal Pandora but with a keyboard more akin to that of the Zaurus. Keyboard edition owners would of course have the possibility of just plugging in a USB2 joypad to take advantage of all the games and emus enjoyed by normal Pandora owners.

Whaddya tink Craig/ Mweston et al?

PS Before anyone comes out with "Yeah but who would want to use a keyboard that small to do any serious work?"- ME! I want a truly portable device to do Linux stuff on, with no external keyboard or silly key-combos required. On top of that I know exactly how usable keyboards of that size are through having owned 2 Zauruses and almost all the Psion models.

 

[rasczak]

For those, could be interesting something like that:
http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/...e_pc_clone.html

 

[parag0n]

the gaming controls ARE part of the keyboard when using it for text entry!

L-button as ctrl, R-button as alt etc.

Since the pads for the keyboard etc are part of the motherboard, it'd need a whole new hardware revision, and be a PITA for the devs to make an even more niche product!

 

[danboid]

For those, could be interesting something like that:
http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/...e_pc_clone.html



Not at all. The eeePC and that rip off you linked to will NOT fit in your pocket and hence are not comparable to or good as a replacement for a Pandora or Zaurus.

the gaming controls ARE part of the keyboard when using it for text entry!

L-button as ctrl, R-button as alt etc.

Since the pads for the keyboard etc are part of the motherboard, it'd need a whole new hardware revision, and be a PITA for the devs to make an even more niche product!

Yes, the gaming controls could be used for text entry, but that will be set in software and that software has yet to be wrote. Additionaly, 6 or so fire buttons maketh not a Zaurus-like (or better) keyboard.

"Pads and keyboard are part of the motherboard". Eh? No they're not! You must be looking at some different pics of the motherboard to the ones that I've seen on the official blog.

The case would need a slight redesign, of course, but I would imagine that the difficulties these changes would cause to devs would be negligible or non-existant.

 

[chad78]

a PITA for the devs to make an even more niche product!
Actually - by removing the game controls and making the keyboard bigger/more full-featured, it would make the Pandora *less* of a niche product. What makes this a niche product is that it has gaming controls. By removing those and improving the keyboard, it's now a Eee PC clone that fits in your pocket - or a N8X0 clone with a better physical keyboard and more power. Are those niche? maybe, but not as much as a gaming MID.

 

[parag0n]

ahem.

-edit- you posted while i was posting!

A less niche product, but with a far smaller slice of a far bigger market.

In the end, the pandora is a gaming device, the devs are not going to remove the gaming controls from it, because it'd alienate their entire core community... The people who are actually doing the work on the software

 

[danboid]

ahem.



Most likely that is just a pic of the keyboard guts overlayed on top of the mobo. It would be very peculiar if the keyboard was an integral part of the mobo. Mr Weston?

 

[parag0n]

thats the top of the motherboard, most of the pandora photos you see are of the bottom (CPU side)!

(the LEDs aren't on the board, thats the only source image i could find as gbax.com seems to be down)

 

[danboid]

In the end, the pandora is a gaming device, the devs are not going to remove the gaming controls from it, because it'd alienate their entire core community... The people who are actually doing the work on the software

No the Pandora IS NOT just a gaming device. God knows how many times we've been over this. The Pandora is BOTH a gaming device AND a pocket Linux computer, but they have the potential to make greater inroads into the nascent 'pocket computer' (not really for games but still possible) segment by improving the keyboard and dumping the joypad.No one gets 'alienated', more people get interested and the net result is a larger Pandora user and developer base. Everyone wins!

 

[Tinnus]

It's the main board. There's no "keyboard guts", only the main Pandora board and the keys/buttons map directly to that.

Having another board just for the keyboard would have a FAT impact on thickness.

 

[parag0n]

Thats why i said gaming device, not games console

 

[Chip]

ahem.



Most likely that is just a pic of the keyboard guts overlayed on top of the mobo. It would be very peculiar if the keyboard was an integral part of the mobo. Mr Weston?


Nope, that's the other side of the main board. The pics you see with all the components are actually of the bottom of the board. It's been shopped to include backlighting LEDs that don't exist on the real board, but those are the keypad contacts on the actual board. The original pics have moved off the dev blog.

There will be a soft rubber membrane with contact pads that sits on top of this, and plastic keys on top of the membrane.

 

[icurafu]

it would make it a normal MID with crappy software. With heaps of software released each week, where only rarely would something work.

It would be a crippled Pandora. Leave the MID market for those who focus on it. Don't become another pepperpad that fails due to cr@p software.

 

[danboid]

It's the main board. There's no "keyboard guts", only the main Pandora board and the keys/buttons map directly to that.

Having another board just for the keyboard would have a FAT impact on thickness.

So could someone please explain to me what this is then:

I thought this was the Pandora mobo. Has that been scapped and replaced with a design with a hard-wired keyboard so that if our joypad or keyboard breaks we have to replace the entire guts of the Pandora?

As I say, there may not be enough interest in a pocket linux computer to create a separate "Keyboard Edition" but you guys are acting like it would be an impossibility when surely its a minor redesign?

 

[fishybawb]

So could someone please explain to me what this is then:

That's called "the other side of the mainboard"

The older Psion (series 3?) worked the same way; a rubber membrane on top of the key contacts on the mainboard.

 

[danboid]

it would make it a normal MID with crappy software. With heaps of software released each week, where only rarely would something work.

It would be a crippled Pandora. Leave the MID market for those who focus on it. Don't become another pepperpad that fails due to cr@p software.

Normal MID? If it would be so normal, then were can I get something exactly like what I'm describing? Maybe, with a lot of hacking, you could wrangle a Beagle Board into a Zaurus casing but no-ones pulled that off that I know of yet. Besides, the Pandora is much smaller and so can't be clasified as a MID. The Zaurus/Pandora aren't MIDS, the eeePC is.

Crappy software? By that you're saying that the Pandora itself will have crappy software and that Linux/FLOSS in general is also crap. Thats your opinion but I'd disagree as would IBM, Sun, Novell, Intel, TI....

 

[TaG]

it would make it a normal MID with crappy software. With heaps of software released each week, where only rarely would something work.

It would be a crippled Pandora. Leave the MID market for those who focus on it. Don't become another pepperpad that fails due to cr@p software.

Normal MID? If it would be so normal, then were can I get something exactly like what I'm describing? Maybe, with a lot of hacking, you could wrangle a Beagle Board into a Zaurus casing but no-ones pulled that off that I know of yet. Besides, the Pandora is much smaller and so can't be clasified as a MID. The Zaurus/Pandora aren't MIDS, the eeePC is.

Crappy software? By that you're saying that the Pandora itself will have crappy software and that Linux/FLOSS in general is also crap. Thats your opinion but I'd disagree as would IBM, Sun, Novell, Intel, TI....
You seem to be using your own interpretation for what others say. He did not say Linux was crap, but not all the good linux software is going to work well on the Pandora, with a 4.3" screen as well. Two 'versions' of the Pandora would dilute effort and make it harder to quarantee software works on both.

Look, if you want to develop it feel free and go ahead. If you want a Pandora or beagleboard, or whatever, then buy one.

 

[Null]

+ This design will always be a DIY job unless you can gather together a vast amount of people that want it to be manufactured.

 

[danboid]

If I understand icurafu correctly, he is arguing against a keyboard edition because he is presuming that a slightly different Pandora model would cause developers lots more work and headaches trying to support two models and hence software quality would be diluted. I've already addressed this point as it is my conviction that minimal effort would be required on behalf of developers because the hardware would be EXACTLY THE SAME save for it having an integrated joypad or not. Pandora-specific apps wouldn't use the extra keyboard keys but people would be able to use those extra keys under standard X11/Linux apps no probs.

You've got to remember that 99.9% of software people will be running on the Pandora has been coded for (x86) Linux and PCs do not have a integrated joypad. So, if you bought the keyboard edition the chances are you will be mainly running GNOME, XFCE or another desktop that was wrote with PC users with a 102/105 keyboard in mind. Whatever custom GUI/firmware the Pandora may use could be designed to work using a suitable USB joypad instead of using the in-built one should a keyboard edition user stray from a normal X11 environment.

You cannot compare the Pandora to the Pepperpad or eeePC as these are different form factors. Pepperpad, I agree, was a load of bull.

I know exactly whats going to happen when the Pandora gets released and reviewed. Even if the build quality is excellent and the firmware/OS is fantastic, full-featured and bug-free, reviewers are guaranteed to complain about the keyboard not having enough keys. Yes, people wanting a pocket device to play MAME or other emulators is definitely a niche market. However, a device that could run Firefox and Openoffice well in adition to playing all your movies and music- that is a potentially HUGE market and the Pandora (keyboard edition) could be the first device to do this well.

 

[plopperz]

Do you have any clue what you're talking about?
It surely isn't a "minor redesign".
You would have to redesign the board!

It's stupid to want to pay more (which you would) for a different model with less features and lower compatibility.