HackModford
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2007
- Messages
- 813
- Age
- 33
I'm sure you know what the onlive service is. Will there be a linux plugin for firefox for onlive? I think it would be awesome!
Pandora For Online Gaming
- Thread starter W4RP1G
- Start date
kloplop321
Psychotic Trans-dimensional Being
HackModford said:
I'm not into the idea of the service, but they are making PC versions, and they are planning for the iPhone. Your best bet is to email their team and see if they would consider it
Last edited by a moderator:
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
- Joined
- May 24, 2008
- Messages
- 16,731
You know there's a thread discussing this very thing just a few down, right? "Pandora for online gaming"?
Paradox
oh em gee
onlive is never gunna work, it's such a scam.
HackModford
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2007
- Messages
- 813
- Age
- 33
You guys don't get it... it's not simply streaming video... I mean it is... but they completely redid the compression algorithim! I really think they fixed the problem... just watch their video on engadget!
Luminous
Still Fresh
this didn't warrant it's own thread. 
kloplop321
Psychotic Trans-dimensional Being
Compression can only go so far... and if it really is completely redone, then it might require more power than the pandora simply has to offer at it's current resolution.HackModford said:
Last edited by a moderator:
lulzfish
Pandora Defense Squad
And it's not going to magically eliminate network latency.Kloplop321 said:
Last edited by a moderator:
kloplop321
Psychotic Trans-dimensional Being
And we all know how sucky latency can be. Especially on First Person Shooters.lulzfish said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Chip
[Insert Custom Title Here]
Merged identical threads.
While I'm sure Onlive has something, I will wager vital parts of my anatomy that you will never see anything like the performance they're claiming in real life. What they're claiming is simply not possible with current technology. You can get very good looking 720p video compressed at about 2Mbps, but that's the average of a variable bitrate encode. You can't do VBR in real-time, mainly because bitrate spikes would absolutely kill you without a buffer. So you'd have to do CBR, and that puts you up around 5Mbps minimum for decent quality. Nothing can do this without introducing some latency. Even "real time" encoding introduces a few hundred ms of delay, and quality drops through the floor.
Speaking of latency, no amount of magical software can compensate for input / reaction latency. If you press a button on your PC, you cannot see a result of that button press until the signal goes from your PC, to your ISP, to Onlive's server, the server processes it, generates video, that video is compressed, and that video travels back to your ISP and down the pipe to your computer, where it is decompressed and displayed. No part of that round trip can be magiced away unless Onlive can either read your mind or predict the future.
And when you're done with that one, you may want to check out these other totally legitimate videos - Steorn Orbo, Water powered car, Statue of Liberty vanishes.HackModford said:
While I'm sure Onlive has something, I will wager vital parts of my anatomy that you will never see anything like the performance they're claiming in real life. What they're claiming is simply not possible with current technology. You can get very good looking 720p video compressed at about 2Mbps, but that's the average of a variable bitrate encode. You can't do VBR in real-time, mainly because bitrate spikes would absolutely kill you without a buffer. So you'd have to do CBR, and that puts you up around 5Mbps minimum for decent quality. Nothing can do this without introducing some latency. Even "real time" encoding introduces a few hundred ms of delay, and quality drops through the floor.
Speaking of latency, no amount of magical software can compensate for input / reaction latency. If you press a button on your PC, you cannot see a result of that button press until the signal goes from your PC, to your ISP, to Onlive's server, the server processes it, generates video, that video is compressed, and that video travels back to your ISP and down the pipe to your computer, where it is decompressed and displayed. No part of that round trip can be magiced away unless Onlive can either read your mind or predict the future.
Last edited by a moderator:
kloplop321
Psychotic Trans-dimensional Being
I doubt that they would be running multiple instances of the game with all possible reactions and send you back the one you reacted with. It would be too heavy, but the concept is there.Chip said:
I've spoken with many people outside of this forum on this subject. They aren't too enthused about it. Some think it is just a fake--vaporware.
Last edited by a moderator:
HackModford
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2007
- Messages
- 813
- Age
- 33
I'll take you up on that offer.
Hey thanx for merging the redundant thread... I apologize
Hey thanx for merging the redundant thread... I apologize
fischju2000
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2008
- Messages
- 763
Where did all the massive negativity from OnLive and the concept come from? These forums were usually enthusiastic at the prospect - While the latency of their plan to use dedicated servers for games may cause problems (Did you really just compared it to Steorn's Orbo, Chip?) this is a company founded by experts in the field of video compression and computer networking.
http://tv.seas.columbia.edu/videos/545/60/79?file=1&autostart=true - The latest video about the service. People could get used to 80ms latency. - And if the service itself proves not to be an effective solution, the idea is out there, what's to stop a home PC based server software that does the same on local wi-fi, compressing video and sending it to a device with hardware controls, where latency would be much less of an issue.
http://img228.imageshack.us/i/mouselaggn6.swf/ - Move the slider all the way to 80ms and click to see the time it takes. Would casual players really find that an issue?
http://tv.seas.columbia.edu/videos/545/60/79?file=1&autostart=true - The latest video about the service. People could get used to 80ms latency. - And if the service itself proves not to be an effective solution, the idea is out there, what's to stop a home PC based server software that does the same on local wi-fi, compressing video and sending it to a device with hardware controls, where latency would be much less of an issue.
http://img228.imageshack.us/i/mouselaggn6.swf/ - Move the slider all the way to 80ms and click to see the time it takes. Would casual players really find that an issue?
Rathum
Member
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Messages
- 198
fischju2000 said:
Onlive is counting on console players already being accustomed to pretty ridiculous amounts of input lag.
Check this out: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article
It's a real interesting read that shows how companies test for and reduce input latency while developing games.
Last edited by a moderator:
craigix
Mega GP Mania
Hardcore geeks will no doubt hate onlive because they will 'see' all the faults, but the man on the Clapham omnibus won't, he just wants to casually play games from a large library instantly and the issues won't be a big deal to him.
The technology to make it work is just about there, the money involved if they pull it off is too high for them not to do it.
The technology to make it work is just about there, the money involved if they pull it off is too high for them not to do it.
Chip
[Insert Custom Title Here]
In my case, from a basic understanding of the realities of video compression and networking. I may not be an "expert" like the founders of Onlive, but I know what's out there. Nothing available can deliver the sort of high-quality, low-latency compression they're claiming to have. If they really have created a new compression algorithm that is an order of magnitude faster than what is currently available (h.264) without a serious reduction in quality, then they wouldn't be wasting the IP on a gaming service.fischju2000 said:
This article explains it all in more detail, along with some example videos of what real time compression ends up looking like.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think a lot of perceived negativity about Onlive is really just well placed skepticism. I'd love to see technologies like this become viable, but it seems more like a marketing fantasy than anything else. I probably won't use it because I think there's an ethical conflict when you have to pay a subscription fee and make purchases on top of it, but if they are really able to match the hype, it would be great to see similar advances in other networking technologies.
fischju2000
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2008
- Messages
- 763
Chip said:
Check out Steve Perlman's credentials, all of his endeavors seem to lead to OnLive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Perlman
On the large resolution side, for people with cable or FIOS bandwidth, latency, and QoS would be much less of an issue. 'Smoke and mirrors' may apply to how they are doing it in demonstration, a $3000 muti-gpu GPGPU setup and/or dedicated encoder cards for a single stream or something, but that's how everything is done. Showcasing the best possible. OnLive's original claims of 720p video at 60fps are unlikely for most users, but that doesn't preclude the concept from ever being useful on anything in any circumstances. It's not free energy. And the fact remains, the entire article is speculation.
The original point of this thread before merging was if it could work on the Pandora. It's been announced for mobile phones, like the iPhone, and that makes the stats workable. 640x480 or 320x240 30fps video for a mobile device. And you can see by the second page of the article you linked, it's possible and doesn't look bad. So the answer even with conservative estimations and speculation is yes, if they themselves released an ARM port for the Pandora or possibly even the N900 or Pre.
See Ranthum's post above to this article: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article - 30fps console games have a minimum 100ms latency, 66.67 for 60fps, but up to 200 for some games.
Last edited by a moderator:
God Ginrai
Godmaster
Chip said:
I don't know enough about video compression to comment on the probability of them having such an algorithm, but I would like to see one frame from one of their streams. The man in the onlive video linked earlier in this topic mentioned that they compress it in such a way that it only looks good in motion, which begs the question of what it does look like still. Seeing that may lend some clues as to why their magic algorithm could or could not work the way they claim.
-God Ginrai
Last edited by a moderator:
kin
Member
playin Return to Castle Wolfenstein would be awesome (not sure if it has sourcecode available).
The funny voice announcements:
"They have broken into the bank! Protect the gold"
"insufficient firesupport, insufficient firesupport, insufficient firesupport, insufficient firesupport" (clicking the goggles like mad)
need a medic!
The funny voice announcements:
"They have broken into the bank! Protect the gold"
"insufficient firesupport, insufficient firesupport, insufficient firesupport, insufficient firesupport" (clicking the goggles like mad)
need a medic!
