Pandora 2 should be a 5" Linux Tablet with no built in gaming controls, but... - With Hinge & Attach

[3_bit]

I'd like the idea if there were still controls but the display was connected via magnets and fine pins (If Apple hasn't patented everything to do with magsafe)

I imagine it would be even better if we used magnets with physical (presumable metal) latches to hold it in place. If I'm running on Keyboard Module power and drop my OP2, I wouldn't want to lose power. It would be pretty cool as well to see some kind of rubber case that surrounds that tablet and connects to it but houses "cool" sensors like irda, gps, etc. and a massive battery. This would allow the OP2 to fill the niche of mobile data logging, navigation, etc. making it more of a do-everything device. Unless, of course, that means emulating an ARM or x86 processor (depending on whatever we get) at full speed. What would make it more interesting is if such a backpack for the OP2 had extra storage or maybe even another CPU or GPU, possibly x86 so the OP2 could truly handle almost anything.

 

[Mr_Loon]

impressive crafts dude, could yiou do the hinge aswell or is it too much for paper?

The hinge may be a little beyond my modelling skills but maybe the holder could be attempted.________________________

Why does it have speakers covered with metal mesh? What is that black dot on the top left of the machine? Is that a webcam you call it?

Jokes aside, I would love to see some leds on the front edge of the base. Like wifi or bluetooth indicator, or cardreader leds. It will also give the system a bit more "pimpy" look. 

It is indeed a webcam, mic is top right. As for pimping things up then please feel free to edit the papercraft image to include LEDs or your favourite keyboard layout etc. The models / sketches in this post are used to illustrate the viability of the general concept rather than final designs.________________________

I'm not too excited about power button placement. If it's going to be on the outside it will need to be sturdy, the case will need to be reinforced around that area, etc. and I think there will need to be a power lock to disable the button to prevent actual activation/deactivation. If there is an OP2 unofficial design commitee, you should be in charge of concepts. You're just awesome at it.

Many thanks for the kind words, they are much appreciated, but I don't think that design by committee is necesarily the way forward at this stage. I'd favour individuals or small teams putting forward their ideas, concepts & designs and the official team 'cherry picking' from these.

As for the power button placement then consider the button shown on the model merely there to illustrate the requirement of a power button, not its exact placement or configuration. This is still about the concept not the design.

________________________

Have you brought any real thought into the keyboard layout yet ? I noticed that the keys use the full witdth of the device and wondered about the possibility of accidental keypresses during the usage of the gaming controls.

No, consider the keys on the layout to merely illustrate that there is a hardware keyboard, decisions about key size / numbers / labelling / placement / number of rows etc. would come at the design stage.

Using AAA batteries in the base to power the device would be a no go for me. I also don't see the reason for doing so - to keep the whole thing in balance the base already has to be of some weight, why not use a battery with a low height but a big footprint in the "base" ?

The AAA batteries would be used to power the bluetooth in the base unit when the control set is to be used detached from the lid (perhaps in Sofa gaming mode), the main, 6000 mAh battery module would be connected to the base and would power the lid (screen & PCB) in mini laptop mode.I have a bluetooth mouse & 2 X AAA batteries last for ages, they are also readily available, cheap & a good compromise between size & power.

________________________

I'd like the idea if there were still controls but the display was connected via magnets and fine pins (If Apple hasn't patented everything to do with magsafe)

I imagine it would be even better if we used magnets with physical (presumable metal) latches to hold it in place.

Great minds think alike (or fools seldom differ ) This is more or less what I've got in mind for the next revision of the hinge & holder design
i.e. the screen can be easily clipped on or off or set to Landscape or Portrait mode, but can also be locked firmly in place if required.

________________________

This might become a ten pager thread.

I think you're right

 

[3_bit]

Now that I think about it, a few buttons on the tablet might be useful. Perhaps a volume adjustment switch similar to the one seen in iOS devices? I have yet to see an ARM gaming tablet/media device that is pocketable (and not a phone). This could be another niche the Pandora could fill as well. Also, not to get to OT, but what program are you using for your concepts?

 

[overgauss]

.... 

 
I'm just too lazy and too undermotivated to get into your post in detail, but:


If your read the thread carefully you will notice two factors in the ops design:


- keep the hinge


- keep the size ( +- a few centimeters)


You just gave (as usual) examples that can be used to prove a general point, while we have a specific set of parameters that have to be followed to add something usefull to the discussion, and pinning an "everything is possible if you try hard enough" on it doesn't do anything good either, or make your point more valid.


The examples for devices that implement a comparable "docking" feature were all way bigger than the Pandora, or didn't even have a hinge like design (what does copy/pasting a lot pictures too prove the point that attaching a controller in any way add to the discussion that is at hand here ?)


It is the same with your "baggage" post: the culprit is the size, one of the strong factors of the Pandora is it size, so why should anyone that is attracted by its size put her in a bag as big as the ones you posted - if the bag is already that big and they plan on / are already carrying it around, they probably decide to buy a netbook (cheaper, better keyboard, better compatibility)


I could add further that the OP won't have the time, resources, money to come up with something (you gave as examples) where big companies invest a lot of time. But I know I'm a "hater". Why btw. ? Because I addressed two concerns ?


Please don't use that silly "hater" phrase. It usually gives the impression that the one who uses that phrase does not have any real/strong point to make or can't come up with any real argument to strenghten his point. And I don't think that you need such a lame excuse.

If you read my post(s) carefully you would have seen me clarify more than once that you can design this thing to adhere to whatever specifications or constraints you desire.  That means you can keep the hinge and actually have the device smaller than the original pandora.

I gave examples of modular units interacting with devices not originally designed to be modular, in the case of cell phones for example, and those that were designed to be modular, in the case of docking tablets like the Asus Transformer and the several other tablets I showcased.  The point is that if you can do a mod to a device not originally intended to have an attached controller, then it should be fairly obvious that you can design a modular pandora if it is designed to be so from the ground up.

Again the only reason why I posted bags was because YOU asked for examples.  I later clarified that you can have a pandora with attachable keyboard that fits in your pocket if you desire.  Imagine a Galaxy SIII designed to dock with a keyboard.  It would still be small enough to fit in one's pocket and the same can be said for a modular pandora. I mentioned how my Surface works ok.  It has a hinge and magnets, supporting both the op's and my arguments.

The OPT brought us the ICP2 as well as the original Pandora but a modular design, that we "all" previously agreed would be wonderful, now magically is outside the scope of their expertise by your estimation.

There are several solutions to the problem that come to mind.  I already mentioned correlated magnets and the hinge/docking mechanism of tablets (through pictures no less).  However still more solutions exist!  I literally came up with one in six seconds.  I'll not post it, but believe it or not it's not a hard problem to solve.

I mention "haters" because at the time, everyone seemed to want to poo-poo the OP's suggestion without giving the problem any real thought.  That seems pretty hater-like to me.

Edit:

Do you want another warning point for calling me "WC"? (or is that supposed to be a typo?)

Or for the ad hominem attacks towards Grench?

Or for your attention-whoring signature?

 

[thatgui]

...

It's the same all over again, give examples that fit the parameter of the context , otherwise they are useless.

Sure the OPT2 brought us the ICP2 and original Pandora - so what? The ICP2 has no hinge design and the hinge of the Pandora is crap - I love my Pandora, but the hinge ist miserable, and (as said before) the examples you gave are made from big companies which hire cost intensive designers with years of experience and have the money to iterate through several different designs and furthermore iron out their design of choice. What does the OPT Team have ? DaveC (no offense) who did a good job within the boundaries of his possibilities and the requirements (cheap, fast, relativly sturdy), but the mechanisms that the OP has in mind will be on a totally different level and with a far lower budget.

Where did I dismiss the OP ideas without giving it a real thought ?

 

[overgauss]

I'm saying that this is a really easy problem to solve when one believes that the problem is solvable.  Super easy.

 

[Binky]

My argument that a hinge without tablet-clamp is easier to build than a hinge with a tablet clamp still stands.
The idea seems to be to run cables through the hinge from a set of pogopins, and although doable, this is much harder to get right than a single cable.

If ease and quality of case construction is a priority, the P2 should be a simple clamshell.

 

[Grench]

My argument ... the P2 should be a simple clamshell.

Agreed.

 

[drock]

My argument ... the P2 should be a simple clamshell.

Agreed.

+1

 

[overgauss]

But you don't have to use pogo pins or any physical connection whatsoever for that matter.  If you had to use a connection a simple usb cable would do, and that way you could use the controller as a backup battery and usb hub. 

The main body would have a user replaceable battery and all external i/o ports, usb connectors etc (I would have two microusb connectors on the hinge side to interact with a keyboard add-on that acts as an extra battery, usb hub, has a stylus silo, SD slots, and a battery style compartment used to store extra cables, sd/microsd cards etc.  Maybe more on this later).

The way I see the design, the hinge would actually be simpler since you don't have to worry about connecting the two units with wires other than through usb if you so choose.

 

[Binky]

I'm worried that mini-laptop with detachable screen is turning into phablet with optional keyboard.


Physical controls and desktop software in a tiny package are what make the pandora great.


The phablet with iCP strapped on setup will make the laptop mode less power efficient, larger, more fragile and generally worse. There is no way to avoid this.


Why weaken unique strengths to replace them with an inferior implementation of functionality already occupying a saturated market?


Detachable clip hinge systems or swapable batteries will make the whole system bulkier and will introduce new weak points. Using radio or USB accross the hinge will cause huge battery life problems. Any plug/socket system (pogo pins etc) will be less reliable than a cable.


When I was new here I suggested a concept where you could fold the lid back (like a normal clamshell) then slide the lid forward until it covered up the keyboard. If we're going with something impractical I'd much rather have on of those

 

[overgauss]

This is just bias talking.  Is an Asus transformer or most any of the transformable tablettops any more bulky than a traditional laptop?  Nah.  Everything you said is just basically bias talking.

I'll show you.  Less power efficient?  How, where, why?  Whole system bulkier?  How, where, why?  Swapable batteries will make the system bulkier and introduce new weak points?  How, where, why?  Bluetooth will cause huge battery life problems?  How, where, why?  Ever use a PS3 controller?  Blue tooth mouse?

So far the suggestion allows for increased battery life and the ability for the screen to be rotated flat on top of the keyboard without breaking any patents.  A long sought after feature for the pandora.  Is that not a unique strength?  Or do you think a clamshell design is unique?

No one is taking the controls/keypad functionality away from you.  Merely adding to it.

 

[Binky]

I'll show you. Less power efficient? How, where, why? Whole system bulkier? How, where, why? Swapable batteries will make the system bulkier and introduce new weak points? How, where, why? Bluetooth will cause huge battery life problems? How, where, why? Ever use a PS3 controller? Blue tooth mouse?

I'll start with a few obvious points:


casing has a non-zero thickness


A mechanical system takes up more space than an absence of mechanical system

More debatable points:


Running radios requires more energy than using a short wire. --> using bluetooth to connect to tablet part reduces battery life


Removable battery packs require extra layers of casing --> relocatable batteries makes device bulkier


Complicated (especially moving parts) case design is more prone to failure than static/simpler case design. (this applies to screen attachment and battery attachment)


witness: pandora 1 hinge, battery compartment clips are/were both fragile (effects amplified due to poor manufacture, low budget)


witness: wlan and bluetooth off estimated run time left (according to tint2 applet, low cpu load) - 13:54


wlan off, bluetooth on and in use: 11:57 --> 16% percent longer battery life using electrical connections

• Power efficiency: radios eat power, BT chips for talking to docked iCP2, radiating EM waves in unnecessary directions.
• Bulk: more casing material, battery module, to make battery detachable without leaving unprotected pandora guts.
• swappable batteries: (see above) more moving/intricate parts, battery clip, tablet clip, moving parts are sensitive to damage
• bluetooth battery problems - see power efficiency
• No, so what? Radios need more energy than wires.

Some pandora strengths are: low size:functionality ratio. Long battery life. -- I have just shown how these will be worsened by the detachable tablet system.


If you value the tablet mode, then the size:functionality ratio may actually decrease


If you make the battery bigger, then you increase bulk but remove battery life concerns


---

Points I am making:

• A detachable tablet system is harder to manufacture than a conventional clamshell
• I don't want a detachable tablet
• A detachable tablet system is (in some ways!) worse than an equivalent device without the modularity

Some points I am not making:

• A detachable tablet is useless
• A detachable tablet is impossible to make
• A phablet|iCP2 system will always be worse than the P1

---
How the issues I've pointed out could be addressed:


Use a bigger battery to counterbalance the use of radios


Use a thinner case to avoid problems with a thick battery casing


use a stronger case to balance out the weakeses of thin material


Spend a lot of time designing a reliable clip on - clip off system (both mechanically and electrically reliable)


Carefully cram everything in tightly to avoid bulk problems.


---

Also note:


The 'electrical connectors are fragile' and the 'radio wastes energy' arguments are not both be valid at once.


When I took the battery life readings I was running one BT transceiver, not two. Have efficiencies doubled since 2008?


I'm biased. I try to justify my opinions. Debating >= Arguing.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Here are the 3 modules in glorious papercraft for the revised concept (large files print on A4 Paper) :

Lid

Spoiler

Base

Spoiler

Battery

Spoiler

______________________________ 

...

Also, not to get to OT, but what program are you using for your concepts?

Photoshop CS3______________________________ 

@ Binky : what you say is largely true, but from a personal opinion the advantages of a modular system :

Multiple usage modes (see below)

Customer can buy / upgrade in sections

Improved RMA experience for customer due to modular nature

Additional retail opportunities for the customer due to modular nature

Screen can be attached in both Landscape & Portrait mode

Cable routing between base & screen is easier

Screen could be used as a second monitor (as per Drammurts Suggestion)

Multiple usage modes :

Mini Laptop

Tablet

Tablet & Hardware Controls (either attached or detached)

Couch Gaming

Desktop Replacement

In Car / Public Transport (screen attached to tripod mount)

Relaxed Mode (screen attached to tripod mount)

Outweigh the disadvantages :

1) Lid is thicker + heavier (by the thickness, 4mm? + weight 125g? of the PCB)

2) The system is thicker overall by the width of the battery casing (the PCB has got to go somewhere, if it is in the lid then the base can be thinner)

3) Power drain / cpu load from USB being always on?

4) Separate battery required for control set

On point 3, please also remember that the control set could also use GPIO via the pogo pins if having Bluetooth / USB always on proved to be a major problem when aiming for a 10 hour battery life with a 6000 mAh battery.

Please also remember that in the papercraft models a 5" 4:3 screen is used, if a screen that was P1 sized / aspect ratio was used then the overall dimensions would of course be a little smaller.

On a general point please don't mistake a personal inability to think of a good way to connect the battery / lid / base unit with the overall possibility of that goal being achieved. For instance I could not design a functional PCB for P2 if my life depended upon it, but I do not dispute that there are plenty of people who could.

Keep the debate coming, your contributions have been really useful to help finalise the concept.

__________________________________

.....

What does the OPT Team have ? DaveC (no offense) who did a good job within the boundaries of his possibilities and the requirements (cheap, fast, relativly sturdy), but the mechanisms that the OP has in mind will be on a totally different level and with a far lower budget.

.....

DaveC is not the only designer available to OP GmbH, it would be good to use DaveC again but any competent product design engineer would be an acceptable choice. My suggestion to OP GmbH would be to follow Craig's lead and buy a 3D printer to use for prototyping. This would hopefully help pin down problem areas related to things like ergonomics & hinge design.

 

[Binky]

Cable routing between base & screen is easier

How so?

On a general point please don't mistake a personal inability to think of a good way to connect the battery / lid / base unit with the overall possibility of that goal being achieved. For instance I could not design a functional PCB for P2 if my life depended upon it, but I do not dispute that there are plenty of people who could.

My point was that the detachable screen thingy will always cause design problems, however its done.

Its very likely that good design can minimise these problems, and that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for a good number of potential customers.

 

[thatgui]

.....

What does the OPT Team have ? DaveC (no offense) who did a good job within the boundaries of his possibilities and the requirements (cheap, fast, relativly sturdy), but the mechanisms that the OP has in mind will be on a totally different level and with a far lower budget.

.....

DaveC is not the only designer available to OP GmbH, it would be good to use DaveC again but any competent product design engineer would be an acceptable choice. My suggestion to OP GmbH would be to follow Craig's lead and buy a 3D printer to use for prototyping. This would hopefully help pin down problem areas related to things like ergonomics & hinge design.

DaveC is the only one I know of. But that isn't really relevant, as there is a reason good Hardware designers are a rare and well paid species. Having a 3D Printer and a lot of good Ideas does not automatically mean that a good design will pop up for sure. I'm also worried about the 3D printer hype that is currently all around: 3D printers are a nice development, and will change some aspects of "the industry" in the future, but they are faaaar away (except you are willing to put a lot of money in it) from beeing able to replace prototyping with the actual material you gonna use in the final product.P1s case designs were done with pre 3D printer technology namely through rotary cutting, but even with this (far more exact) technology there was still the need for rework afterward.

In what extend did Craig make use of his 3D printer for the ICP2 ?

 

[zagabar]

If the pandora 2 would turn out to be a tablet, then I'd never get one. If people want tablets, there is heaps to choose from. Like other people, I chose the pandora to get away from that mess of smartphones and tablets. The concept of the pandora is what many in the community likes and imo pandora 2 should build upon that. If you want a dream tablet project, I think you're better off convincing another community to pull it off. Or... as people stated before, just get a smartphone and use external controls for it.

 

[Mr_Loon]

If the pandora 2 would turn out to be a tablet, then I'd never get one. If people want tablets, there is heaps to choose from. Like other people, I chose the pandora to get away from that mess of smartphones and tablets. The concept of the pandora is what many in the community likes and imo pandora 2 should build upon that. If you want a dream tablet project, I think you're better off convincing another community to pull it off. Or... as people stated before, just get a smartphone and use external controls for it.

Don't be fooled into joining the armchair iconoclasts by the somewhat provocative thread title, what we are really debating here is if the PCB should be in the lid or the base. My personal perspective is that there are far more advantages than disadvantages if the PCB is in the lid & the lid can also be detached from the base unit.

Can you add to the list of disadvantages if the PCB is built into the lid? Do you really think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages?

There may be heaps of tablets to chose from but I can't think of any with a 5" screen that can also be used as a pocketable mini laptop with the inclusion of a base unit.

 

[zagabar]

I am not going to join any arguing since it is pointless. Anyone can sound like a salesman, promoting awesome features for this and that reason. This is mostly an opinion based matter and I doubt arguing here and there will change much for many. I read your arguments before I replied. I still don't want that for the sole reason that I don't need it. To me it would serve no point.

 

[Mr_Loon]

I am not going to join any arguing since it is pointless.

There have been many highly useful arguments put forward in this thread, that have really helped me refine the concept.

Anyone can sound like a salesman, promoting awesome features for this and that reason.

There is a school of thought that suggests a highly effective way of marketing a product is to present it being used in a way which may be perceived as enjoyable by a potential customer. This concept has that base pretty much covered.

This is mostly an opinion based matter and I doubt arguing here and there will change much for many. I read your arguments before I replied. I still don't want that for the sole reason that I don't need it. To me it would serve no point.

A specific question : What would you lose if the PCB was in the lid and you never took your Pandora out of mini laptop mode? (i.e. you left the screen attached to the holder with the battery attached to the base.)


Can you appreciate that excluding a feature because an individual thought 'To me it would serve no point' might not be the best way to go in terms of designing a product? What if someone saw no point in 2 SD Cards, Full size USB, Hardware Keyboard, HDMI out, Touch screen? etc.


I could accept your argument that having the PCB in the lid would be a bad idea if you could show me how it would have a major impact on development costs, overall size of the unit, difficulty of manufacture, ergonomics, seamless use of keyboard /gaming controls etc. but I'm yet to hear a convincing argument of that nature. I do not claim that such an argument cannot exist, but I'm yet to hear it.


Please don't think that your contributions to this debate are not valued just because we see things differently, as stated before all feedback is highly appreciated