Pandora 2 should be a 5" Linux Tablet with no built in gaming controls, but... - With Hinge & Attach


@ mr loon: building the tablet isn't the problem.

Its the detachable hinge setup that would be hard to build.

@ archlord666 that would mean a complete redesign of the work already put in for the iCP2, what would be the benefits of the touchpad?
 
Here is my specific question to the Naysayers :


If an ergonomic, compact & functional clip in case could be made then what do you lose in having the keyboard / gaming controls in a removable format?
Mainly balance. Top part would contain LCD, board, battery etc.. and be too heavy for my taste. I dont see the possibility for opt to make a tablet device as slim as the modern smartphones.

This is not to say that your concept doesn't have the advantages you listed.


EDIT: archlord666 your sketch moves the gaming controls below the keyboard, which would make the unit impossible to hold and play for any extended period.
not sure about the top part. If you look at the galaxy wifi 5"  (touchscreen, 2 camera, gps and so one) (182 g only ). it seems to be very light. I don't know the weigth of the gamepad but it seems the overall weigth could be not so high.

now i am talking about that device, if it were linux compatible, it would be great to be used with the icp2.

I didn't notice about the cost of the layout on the jouability.  i only focused on the ps layout :p . but i  But, well, you can't evaluate if you don't have the stuff in your hands. isn't it?
 
How much does the pandora's screen, speakers and lid casing weigh in total?

Being pandora customers, we'd want a huge battery in the tablet part

I think you mean 'playability', btw
 
How much does the pandora's screen, speakers and lid casing weigh in total?

Being pandora customers, we'd want a huge battery in the tablet part

I think you mean 'playability', btw
The pandora's weight is 320g.

samsung galaxy wifi 5.0 autonomy is 10 hours in video reading (and 60 hours of music). So we may imagine 5 hours of intensive gaming. if a second battery was inserted into the icp2. It would allow something like 10 hours of gaming... at least. But well everything depends on the games (N64 3D games cost a lot more than Nes games).  
 
I didn't notice about the cost of the layout on the jouability. i only focused on the ps layout :p . but i But, well, you can't evaluate if you don't have the stuff in your hands. isn't it?
Take the pandora in your hands and then hold it at the bottom half. Imagine that the controls are at the bottom and try to move your thumbs around. You cannot move them freely because you need to press them down to keep the device from falling out of your hands. This is what I mean by "balance".
 
Exynos 5 Dual SOC


Multitouch 5” 1280 X 800  Screen


External USB3 Port


Internal USB3 Port to attach a mini flash drive instead of Nand


Mini HDMI out / Display port out shipped with HDMI adapter


Full size SD slot


Wifi


Bluetooth


Hardware volume control + MWeston standard audio


Tilt Sensor / Gyroscope


Front facing Camera
A bunch of people wouldn't want a capacitive multitouch screen. Too much trouble to do VNC stuff without zooming in like a madman, also most software has small buttons and other elements that are harder to hit with a plump finger instead of a pixel-wide pointer. Increasing the resolution while keeping the screen size about the same will only add to those difficulties.

The only acceptable alternative would be to combine capacitive tech and an active digitizer pen ala Wacom or the ones used in HTC Flyer, but imagine the cost!
 
I don't want an add-on.
Imagine this scenario :

You are using the current Pandora with TV Out, would it would be better or worse if the control set could be easily detached from the unit? Also consider that if the current control set for Pandora was a clip in ICP2 then you could also use it to control PC, Smartphone etc.

....

Mainly balance. Top part would contain LCD, board, battery etc.. and be too heavy for my taste. I dont see the possibility for opt to make a tablet device as slim as the modern smartphones.

....
How about if the, hopefully rather large, battery was modular and could be removed from the top section and added to the base of the hinged grip?

Why would it have to be as slim as modern smartphones? This is not supposed to replace a smartphone.

....

A bunch of people wouldn't want a capacitive multitouch screen.

....
Me included, a resistive multitouch screen would be my preferred choice. Not sure how possible that would be.

______________________________

People seem to be getting distracted by the word Tablet, a Tablet does not have to mean coffee shop hipsters, confused Grandmas, style over substance etc. It's simply a PC without buttons or a keyboard. Like I guess most Pandora users I'd not be willing to buy a Pandora 2 unless it had a hardware keyboard & game controls. However if that control set can be used independently of the device then so much the better IMHO.

______________________________

Thought of another minor innovation / usage scenario.

The tablet section should have a standard camera tripod connector.

It could then be attached to something like this which would be then attached to your transport table top / bed / desk. With the detached ICP2 in hand, kick back for some ultra relaxed & comfortable movie viewing / gaming.
 
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First a little aside - this has been brought up and discussed like a billion times already so it's not so much an unknown new idea.. Don't have any links to give off hand but if you dig around you'll probably find a bunch of stuff.

I don't want to clip iCP2 to something because it's too small and gives a sub-optimal distribution of weight and features. I don't want to have two batteries in different locations, that's a less efficient use of space. I don't want to have all the ports and slots on the top, and I don't want to have sound coming out of the back of the screen. I don't want headphones coming out of the screen. I don't want all the weight to be on the part away from my hands. The holder for the iCP2, while novel, still looks like a compromise vs something integrated. A hinge arrangement has to be seriously heavy duty to prevent the top from being too heavy for it. Getting a standalone tablet with a 5" screen that matches the iCP2's dimensions is going to be pretty much impossible.

I'm not saying there aren't pros to the approach too but there are major compromises. It'd be great if they could do something to make touch exclusive input work better but everything's a compromise.

Now, all of this notwithstanding, if you think OPT will be willing or able to do the tablet part for $250 you're dreaming. Samsung has economies of scale and vertical integration advantages that even a major third party company couldn't even think of matching, much less a very low volume outfit with minimal resources. And for a lot of reasons it's intrinsically cheaper than what you'd need for a much smaller form-factor - for instance it uses several DDR3L chips instead of one LPDDR2 module, doesn't use PoP, and has a larger and therefore probably lower layer PCB. Also is missing stuff like motion sensors and GPS, not sure which of those would be considered must have on the next Pandora.
 
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I think the complexities required to build a tough, compact, reliable clip/hinge assembly are beyond the tiny design team, tiny budget and relatively little experience OP has.

If the hinge/clip is not tough, compact and reliable, I'm not interested.

Maybe leave it until the P3 ;)
 
First a little aside - this has been brought up and discussed like a billion times already so it's not so much an unknown new idea.. Don't have any links to give off hand but if you dig around you'll probably find a bunch of stuff.
Do you mean on these boards? Can't say I remember seeing this concept mentioned even a mere million times before. ;)

I don't want to clip iCP2 to something because it's too small and gives a sub-optimal distribution of weight and features.
The ICP2 would clip in to an ergonomic grip making it comfortable to hold for long usage sessions. Something A BIT like this.

I don't want to have two batteries in different locations, that's a less efficient use of space.
A good point but I think the Pros outweigh the obvious Cons, totally understood that others will feel differently.

I don't want to have all the ports and slots on the top, and I don't want to have sound coming out of the back of the screen. I don't want headphones coming out of the screen.
More good points, A connector dock integrated with the bottom section of the grip would be included to reroute headphones & USB (from top to bottom) & Power (from bottom to top)

I don't want all the weight to be on the part away from my hands.
As mentioned, my solution for this would be an ability to remove the battery from the tablet section and then connect it to the bottom section of the grip.

The holder for the iCP2, while novel, still looks like a compromise vs something integrated. A hinge arrangement has to be seriously heavy duty to prevent the top from being too heavy for it. Getting a standalone tablet with a 5" screen that matches the iCP2's dimensions is going to be pretty much impossible.
It does not have to match the dimensions, just be something that when closed up will fit in a large pocket like the Pandora. I'll try and knock up a sketch but my artistic talent is pretty woeful. As for hinge durability, make a metal hinge that can be locked with a thumbscrew.

Now, all of this notwithstanding, if you think OPT will be willing or able to do the tablet part for $250 you're dreaming. Samsung has economies of scale and vertical integration advantages that even a major third party company couldn't even think of matching, much less a very low volume outfit with minimal resources. And for a lot of reasons it's intrinsically cheaper than what you'd need for a much smaller form-factor - for instance it uses several DDR3L chips instead of one LPDDR2 module, doesn't use PoP, and has a larger and therefore probably lower layer PCB. Also is missing stuff like motion sensors and GPS, not sure which of those would be considered must have on the next Pandora.
If the JXDS7300 was made without the gaming controls do you think it would become more expensive or cheaper to make? The Dragonscale concept would be a device that when the battery was removed from the top section it would be perhaps a little thinner than the JXDS7300.

Now I fully appreciate that economies of scale apply strongly to tech development & manufacture, but think about what you can get for $250 now compared to 1 year ago. Can you really see P2 being released before Q2 2014? What would $250 look like as a price then? I've been a computer user for over 35 years and it still amazes me how your bang for your buck keeps on increasing at such a relentless pace.

As for GPS that would make the mini tablet viable as a Satnav, a good selling point IMHO, the motion sensors are to give the full Android experience.

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As said, this is all spam & 'blue sky' concept at the moment, what I'm looking for is a USP for the P2. My fear is that the power of Chinese handhelds & smartphones in general will make the P2 a lot harder sell than the P1 unless it can stand out from the crowd in some way or other.
 
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why do you pandora guys oppose change so violently? Mr_Loon proposes an idea of what he would like in the next pandora then he is called an idiot and his idea shunned in favor of a design that was thought up nearly 4 years ago.
When I saw this thread, I thought it was a parody of your threads.

Calling the OP stupid is out of line, but the idea is stupid.

But Linux devices like that are a dime a dozen here in China and if you go to taobao or alibaba you can get them for yourself. Integrating a iCP2 makes no sense as I could just buy a smartphone that already exists if I want that. And a 5" screen makes things substantially less portable. I won't get to use my Pandora for another 16 days, but I know it will fit in pockets which a 5" screened device won't.

Eww touchpads
Yeah, but have you tried cleaning the keyboard after a visit to certain sites? At least a touch pad wipes clean.
 
If the JXDS7300 was made without the gaming controls do you think it would become more expensive or cheaper to make? The Dragonscale concept would be a device that when the battery was removed from the top section it would be perhaps a little thinner than the JXDS7300.

Now I fully appreciate that economies of scale apply strongly to tech development & manufacture, but think about what you can get for $250 now compared to 1 year ago. Can you really see P2 being released before Q2 2014? What would $250 look like as a price then? I've been a computer user for over 35 years and it still amazes me how your bang for your buck keeps on increasing at such a relentless pace.

As for GPS that would make the mini tablet viable as a Satnav, a good selling point IMHO, the motion sensors are to give the full Android experience.
With no offense Mr. Loon, but you are wrong. Those cheap Chinese psp knock-offs are a totally different story from this. JXD is nothing but a packaging company. All it does is buying boards, cheap cases and batteries then send them to sweatshops to assemble them and then print their logos on top. If you want to have a "good bang for your buck" kind of product, you have to sacrifice a lot of things. Like battery time, like custom support, like product quality. Not even need to mention that you have to produce 3 different models every 5 nanoseconds just to keep your capital running. Even these is not enough, the pandora team has to buy thousands of cheap; unreliable; outdated hardware just to produce something that anyone can afford. Then pandora would be another run-off-the-mill android device.

This really isn't what pandora is stand for. Pandora is meant to be the most powerful and multi-functional device that is designed for people who don't care to spend a bit extra to get what they really wanted. Pandora don't need to have selling points for appealing the indecisive casuals, it doesn't need GPS or fun hd screen or 128-core cpu or 3d display or 6-axis control scheme or 4g or any of these so called fashion-stuff. 

If someone has to spend 5 minutes to choose a 1 pound film from poundland, and they want to play with open source handhelds; the GCW zero is a better choice.

I'm happy that ED certainly knows what us, the REAL pandora fans wants. I don't care if the pandora 2 can't open 10 tabs of websites at once or can't bake potato chips; I'm certain that the majority of us don't care either. Fine gentlemen like Notaz and Exophase have spent countless precious hours to develop great things on pandora. Are they doing it because they are paid well and the pandora can crack open walnuts, or are they doing it because pandora stands for something that ain't mainstream? If Notaz and Exophase chose to sell their apps on googleplay, I'm sure they will get paid really well for their trouble. I'm also sure that the OPT has not paid them a single cents: they are doing these voluntarily. Also, no, they are not racists who would support products that are made in their own countries, even they have to pay 2 times as much and may contract smallpox.

My point is: if pandora 2 is just another cheap android tablet with some buttons taped onto it, no matter whether it is built in Germany or on the Jupiter;  I will not buy it even for $250. I would rather stay with P1. I got better offers almost anywhere in the world. I think a lot people can agree with me on this.
 
But Linux devices like that are a dime a dozen here in China and if you go to taobao or alibaba you can get them for yourself.
Interesting, can you give a link to anything that comes running Linux & Android out of the box & has a hinged case that converts the device into a mini laptop when the keyboard & gaming controls are clipped into the bottom section?
Integrating a iCP2 makes no sense as I could just buy a smartphone that already exists if I want that.
Why would YOU buy a more conventional vision of a P2 if you could just use a smartphone & ICP2?
And a 5" screen makes things substantially less portable. I won't get to use my Pandora for another 16 days, but I know it will fit in pockets which a 5" screened device won't.
You could almost fit a screen with a 5 inch diagonal into the current Pandora case, it would not have to be much bigger. Do you think you could fit this in your Pocket?______________________

With no offense Mr. Loon, but you are wrong. Those cheap Chinese psp knock-offs are a totally different story from this.
My apologies but you've completely misunderstood what I was trying to say. It was merely that surely it would be cheaper to produce & develop a device without hardware controls built in, if it did not have to be as slimline as a Galaxy note for example. The example was chosen more to illustrate the physical size rather than say 'look what we could do for $150 delivered'.
 
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I don't think you are ever going to get total agreeance on any concept. People have different views on what they want.  So it is important to bear that in mind and keep our comments on the up and up. No need to attack anyone for their views.

Personally , and as you guys probable have seen in my posts, I'm always positive about new tech. I have been with the concept of the P2 also, however, things have changed.  Forgetting for a second that a P2 is unlikely to occur.  The pending release of the ICP2 and the announcement of Ubuntu coming to mobile has changed my view on buying a P2.  

As others have said, I'd prefer to get an Android Smartphone next year and have it dual boot Ubuntu and Android  and connect it up to a ICP2.  Yes there are some short comings in this arrangement (top heavy etc).  But not enough to draw me away from doing this.  On the plus side , I only need to upgrade my smartphone every few years rather than having to fork out to upgrade a P2 standalone as well. Money wise, that tips the balance for me.

The ICP2 and Ubuntu/Android smartphone combo didn't exist when the P1 was released. Now that there is this option , some people that would have normally bought a P2 are going to go down this seperate path and get the ICP2 combo.  Meaning?,  less people will buy the P2 and in my opinion, it won't be a viable product. Let's not forget that the P1 history has also erroded the target market for any P2.
 
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My apologies but you've completely misunderstood what I was trying to say. It was merely that surely it would be cheaper to produce & develop a device without hardware controls built in, if it did not have to be as slimline as a Galaxy note for example. The example was chosen more to illustrate the physical size rather than say 'look what we could do for $150 delivered'.
Your assumption is based on if sold separately, and OPT won't add in anything else into the P2; the P2 itself would be cheaper. This is quite a bit assumption here, actually. 

ICP 2 is likely to have a bigger profit margin to fund pandora's pre-order, and they need every bit of money they can have to get the production of P2 running smoothly. By making P2 modular, it may need more capital to just get the prototype running. Of cause there will be multiple tiers of P2, like 1.5ghz, 2ghz, 2.5ghz. I doubt they would use cheaper hardware just to lower the pricetag. At the current rate, OPT will not be able to clear its debts completely before prototyping the P2.

However, the physical size may not be known by merely judging the size of ICP 2. It really depends on how ICP 2 is clamped onto the P2. Craigix has said somewhere that P2 is going to be a clamshell-like design. I think ICP 2 will likely to be much smaller than the base of P2 to fit it in. No Idea how they are going to use all the extra space through but having a bit extra place to hold it would not be bad; they can also put the speakers on the lower part, but this risks of having your hands block them. I think If the screen covers all the upper body of the P2, 5 inch is certainly a possibility. Even I cares more about the quality of the screen than the resolution and size of it. A 4 inch pretty elegant OLED screen would be more preferable for me than a 5 inch traditional blurry TFT screen. 

What confuses me greatly is that people keep talking about the importance of fitting a device into your pocket. You can fit a small hedgehog into your back pocket, but why would you want to. Anything larger than a smart phone (besides the big bulky beast called galaxy note), is just uncomfortable. Moreover, I smashed a few phones screens accidentally because of it. I personally don't care if P2 is much larger than P1, as long as it's nice to hold and easy to type; I wouldn't complain a single bit. 
 
The ICP2 and Ubuntu/Android smartphone combo didn't exist when the P1 was released. Now that there is this option , some people that would have normally bought a P2 are going to go down this seperate path and get the ICP2 combo.  Meaning?,  less people will buy the P2 and in my opinion, it won't be a viable product. Let's not forget that the P1 history has also erroded the target market for any P2.
There is always the option of using the N900 with a controller, but pandora still exists.

P2 will still offer things that smartphones doesn't even if linux is coming to smartphones.

P2 looks unique not like those bland android garbage that rips each other off like a bunch of backwater close-relative produced mutatedfreaks; it has a good community behind it not like smartphone #65539 who gets a new model every 3 month; you don't need to worry too much about it drops dead the minute you finish typing a long Email to your boss. Not to mention there are people like me who prefer to have separate devices doing different tasks on. People use salad forks for a reason. :)

In all seriousness, P2 has to be more specific and unique to keep its niche appeal. I hope p2 is bigger and better than p1 in every way.
 
How would you connect a controller(with full controls) to an n900 in one seemless portable/pocketable package?  .   Nice try, but no there was no viable alternative to the P1.  
 
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