Pandora 2 probability debate

[craigix]

Craig You forgot your cool and funny videos on youtube!  

I'm going to do more of those! Generally I'm planning some major Pandora promotion along with the use of the gbax domain again, not as an import store but as something more local to the UK.

I'm hoping all this will allow me to get back to doing what I enjoy, making things. (and obviously having forum arguments. Ah, the old days).

 

[Balakovo]

Craig You forgot your cool and funny videos on youtube!  

I'm going to do more of those!

Can't wait for it!

 

[ShleeDragon]

What If ED orchestrates a P2 without Craig's involvement?

Yeah, this remains possible  Does anyone need Craig for a P2 ?

Yeah, I only paid for the design, the creation, the prototyping, the moulds, the production. (I remortgaged my house to pay for all this, a debt, which I was reminded about yesterday, is currently £176,000)

I only negotiated the use of the OMAP3 when it was super NDA, inc visiting TI in Texas with Mweston, having numerous lunches in the UK to get the databooks, sharing with them and allowing them to use our tech for promotion... 

I only designed the Pandora look, how it should work, the layout etc. started this whole thing rolling.

Build up publicity and sales, reviews and features all over the net and in print.

I only instigated the creation of this forum (against many peoples wishes).

Yeah, I guess I did nothing. 

Then you can bring in all the work done by Mweston, DaveC, Fatih..

I guess you may not have even heard of them.

It must be a strange world you see.

Oh and PS Me, Mweston and DaveC are 'only' working on the iCP2 - the basis of a P2, which is being done as 1 project to save a fortune - and it just entered production.

FOUNDER SLAM!

So the P2 is in pre-production already?! Is ED involved in these plans?

 

[Exophase]

Not as much of a slam if you consider that the statements that Craig isn't essential for a new device and that he did nothing for the old one are not in fact equivalent.

That thing he said just entered production is obviously iCP2, not Pandora 2. You know, Pandora 2, that thing that a few weeks ago Craig said would never happen - I'm pretty sure such a thing wouldn't suddenly be in advanced stage of development!

 

[ShleeDragon]

pre-production = before production.

He said they made the icp2 design first to let them create the P2 design quickly and easily.... makes sense to me. Best case is craig has the case design ready. The hardware is another question.

 

[Exophase]

Pre-production = anything then, right?

 

[xiongxioi]

Not as much of a slam if you consider that the statements that Craig isn't essential for a new device and that he did nothing for the old one are not in fact equivalent.

Dear, Exo

That is quite truthful, but a bit harsh. I'm not judge that, but word it better would not hurt. It pains me to read your comment while I know for a fact that you have no personal grudge against Craigix.

Craigix has sacrificed a lot for pandora, even though he may not been the only one who can make P2. ICP 2 to my understanding is a great step towards making P2 even though it sounds irreverent.

Once its on the market and sold by big numbers; I think it would be really beneficial for all of us. 

I hope we can all act more mature and try to get our ideas cross without starting pointless debates that would inevitably raise to personal level. 

These being said, I really really sincerely do admire you as a knowledgeable and cool-headed gentleman. I think you are enjoying hanging out here just as much if not more than the next guy, so is Craigix.

Me personally don't think pandora 2 would be, or should be that big of a project. So, we should not get so worked up by it and should manage our own expectations.

I think you may agree with me on this case, the next generation ARM soc will not suddenly give pandora magical power to emulate ps 2 or play half life 2 era games on it.

Just by having a hd screen (again, thanks for your professional information on pentile display), a better keyboard, enough power to browse fancy websites, decent wifi, and a good amplifier, 10 hours battery life. That is a deal to me.

This should be easier to achieve than designing the original pandora on 2008. (or I hope so, correct me if I'm wrong and educate me)

 

[Binky]

DaveC and MWeston own the designs for the iCP2 (according to ED).

ED lives close to Global components, has a profitable online shop (with profits redirected to Craig), has a very good reputation from the community and excellent communication skills.

Not to mention having pulled the entire pandora project back on its feet with a proven-to-be-viable business plan after Craig had apparently given up.

Although he didn't play much of a part in the P1, I don't see why our fiendish reptilian monster couldn't organise a P2

 

[Exophase]

Honestly, xiongxioi, I don't really know how to word it better. It should be made clear, yeah, that asking if Craig is needed for Pandora 2 isn't saying that he didn't do anything for Pandora 1. I don't want this to look like a personal attack against Craig either, but sometimes it's impossible to say something without making it at least a little personal. And it's an important question. Especially because ~1.5 months ago Craig said there will be no Pandora 2:

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/12176-has-anybody-received-a-refund-from-openpandora-ltd-craigs-in-2013/page-3#entry229458

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/12176-has-anybody-received-a-refund-from-openpandora-ltd-craigs-in-2013/page-3#entry229471

This is critical - he didn't say he isn't doing one but said there wouldn't be one. He may have meant the former, or he may have meant that a successor device can't happen without him.

Now he's talking about Pandora 2 again as if these statements were never made but we shouldn't ignore them. I'm curious what actually changed between then and now. I for one am uneasy about supporting a Pandora 2 from him if he may suddenly announce it's dead again. Although frankly I'm uneasy for a whole lot of other reasons too.

So yes, meaningful question. Barring perhaps the right to call something Pandora 2, do we need Craig to make such a thing happen? And a related question: if Craig does make a push towards Pandora 2 happening should we leave it to him and discourage someone else from trying the same thing? If someone else (oh I don't know, ED) does push a different successor forward how will the community react? And if you want to get philosophical, what would be the real Pandora 2 - the device that has the name but comes with Android pre-installed (Linux always being an open option but not loaded on the device at purchase), two microSD slots, and a $700 price tag? Or the one with a different name but perhaps more in line with what this community wants?

These are questions we should be asking and thinking about IMO, even if they seem overly dramatic I think being ready for it now is going to be better than being blind sided by it.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

I want the person leading the P2 IF it ever happens to have strong, consistent, and unfiltered communication with the community.

 

[vcoleiro1]

P2 Probablitly I'll give it 50/50 

 

[xiongxioi]

So yes, meaningful question. Barring perhaps the right to call something Pandora 2, do we need Craig to make such a thing happen? And a related question: if Craig does make a push towards Pandora 2 happening should we leave it to him and discourage someone else from trying the same thing? If someone else (oh I don't know, ED) does push a different successor forward how will the community react? And if you want to get philosophical, what would be the real Pandora 2 - the device that has the name but comes with Android pre-installed (Linux always being an open option but not loaded on the device at purchase), two microSD slots, and a $700 price tag? Or the one with a different name but perhaps more in line with what this community wants?

I never thought about it to that depth. You are definitely right, Craigix hasn't show any willingness to listen to the community or acting with any openness about the insider stories. 

He may be a  Socially awkward person, but that doesn't mean that is an excuse to acting ignorant about the community which has been supporting them tirelessly.

He has done a lot for us, but he was not doing it the right way. I think Craigix need to be more open about things, tell us about the ICP 2's production stage, tell us about what people he has met that may be of interest, tell us the difficulty he is facing and so on. Hiding things until they are too late to be saved doesn't make it better, people will call him out on it no matter what. Even I sincerely hope ED and Craigix can work togather like before all the trash happened, but we may have to give up on Craigix if he does not want to be part of us.

I'm truly sorry for my lack of insight and wrongly crude accusation towards you, Exo. That was not what I meant.

 

[bukkit]

I guess that so long as this is mostly a "survey" and just a gauge on how best to approach things, then this "option" isn't hurting anyone - yet.

If it was only a survey it wouldn't have to be coupled with personal and order data. An anonimized token would be sufficient and much preferable. It's probably laziness or lack of insight, the failure to communicate plans, like so often, but since the survey happens to be tied to order information and personal data, I'd not like my statement to be interpretable as forfeiting a right.

Alright. So, essentially, it all hinges on the answers to those questions:

- Does "I wait for a P2" mean: I get a P2 for the price I paid for the P1? Or: I pay the difference when I get a P2?

- What do I get if there is no P2?

Those questions should be answered, then.

 If the option becomes a reality I'm sure that they will be.   At the moment though, this survey question is just an expression of interest in the option.

When the P2 will not happen I'll be sure what happens. At the moment though, my question on that survey option is just an expression of interest in the readiness and willingness of the involved party to produce some kind of value for my money.
So I'll just iterate. Don't flame me if I also do in the original thread since this has been derailed on a side track.

- Am I expected to pay the difference between the P1 price I paid and the P2 price?

- Any plans on what happens, in terms of compensation, if there is no P2?

 

[bukkit]

To CraigX, and, partly, ED, question: In case I choose Option "wait for P2":

• Will I be expected to pay the difference between the P1 price I paid and the P2 price?
• Any plans if something happens, in terms of compensation, if there is no P2? (I already know the "what" would be unclear)

Mind: I'm interested in plans, short thoughts and intentions, not guarantees or oaths involving firstborns.
To lovely and generally helpful forum people: This was one simple question, but it became quite tedious, so I'll collect some statements. In case you should be interested in more background, reasoning and details, most of it can be found in the derailed thread.

• The option (wait for P2) is in the list. People might choose it. Things should be a bit clearer, then.
• Stop trying to talk me out of that option. I find it attractive and reasonable.
• It's not hurting future plans. It can't. If it could, they could change their minds.
• I'm aware of the fact that the future is unknown.
• I'm willing to pay for the difference between P1 and P2.
• It's a good option from a business standpoint.
• No, it doesn't have to cost CraigX more money. It'll probably cost much less.
• They are reasonable and rather simple questions.
• Noone except CraigX (and partly ED) can answer these, as it is about what they plan.

 

[WizardStan]

Alas, the survey is unclear in certain points.

The questions you keep asking are irrelevant. There is no plan beyond what is there yet. If you wouldn't mind waiting for a future P2 then answer that. If you would mind waiting then don't answer that. Easy peasy. If enough people answer that they wouldn't mind waiting then they'll come up with a plan according to how many answered it. If not enough people answered then the idea will be scrapped entirely, or something.

 

[ekianjo]

What If ED orchestrates a P2 without Craig's involvement?

Yeah, this remains possible  Does anyone need Craig for a P2 ?

Yeah, I guess I did nothing.  (etc...)

Great to know you did so many things a LONG TIME AGO. So why did you stop doing anything for the Pandora 1 over the past year, then, if you were so invested in it in the first place? So many times you came saying you would promote it, do more stuff, and all your posts were followed by no action at all and just silence. 

If you want to win people's trust you have to do what you say & claim. That's been the main problem with your posts in the past year or so. A lot of talk but not much after. 

That's why I (and other members too) are not too hot about having you leading the Pandora 2 effort, honestly. And the ICP2 project only shows that it's not been going smooth either, with poor or no communication for so many months. You had a chance to prove yourself and you let people down, again.

Please put yourself into your clients' shoes. And what image your actions are giving to the Pandora project. 

 

[ekianjo]

DaveC and MWeston own the designs for the iCP2 (according to ED).

ED lives close to Global components, has a profitable online shop (with profits redirected to Craig), has a very good reputation from the community and excellent communication skills.

Not to mention having pulled the entire pandora project back on its feet with a proven-to-be-viable business plan after Craig had apparently given up.

Although he didn't play much of a part in the P1, I don't see why our fiendish reptilian monster couldn't organise a P2

Yeah, there would be no Pandora now in 2013 if ED had not been around. That's pretty clear for everyone, I guess. ED may not have been the right person in the first place to start a Pandora project on its own in the very beginning (he always says he is a very cautious guy and would probably not take such risks) but now that he has the momentum going, investors, community support and proper communication skills, there's nothing preventing him from starting a project on his own (with other Pandora members). Plus, ED is a fervent Linux user and will support having Linux right from the start for a potential Pandora successor, and not all the Android BS that nobody really wants. 

Hence my question in the previous page. It's perfectly legitimate. 

 

[bukkit]

The questions you keep asking are irrelevant. There is no plan beyond what is there yet.

Well. I beg to differ. Many people seem to think that opting for waiting for P2 is equivalent to "I get nothing if the P2 doesn't happen."I personally don't think so. At least it looked to me like both CraigX and ED tried to get the whole issue sorted out. But I might be wrong, and anyway, it's speculation at best. While I acknowledge (and several times acknowledged) and now acknowledge again that there is no precise plan on what is supposed to happen, and actually never even asked for a precise plan, I'm asking for intentions. And I think an intention on that issue should be clear by now...

 

[WizardStan]

Well. I beg to differ. Many people seem to think that opting for waiting for P2 is equivalent to "I get nothing if the P2 doesn't happen."

Irrelevant. They aren't giving the details because they haven't worked them out because they don't have all the information. Do you definitely want a Pandora, or are you willing to put your money towards a P2? That's the question. There are no additional qualifiers. Based on the known information, would you be willing to wait or not? If your answer is so very dependent on the actual process by which they'd go through with it then the answer is no, you wouldn't be willing to wait.
There are two types of people: those that can extrapolate from incomplete data.

 

[aatu]

I think there are two points of uncertainty here, regarding the "Wait for P2":

1) Are the choices made in the form FINAL ?

2) Is "Wait for P2" equal to
A) if P2 happens goto delivery else goto null

or
B) if P2 happens goto delivery else goto refund

If point 1 is NO, then point 2 doesn't matter yet, assuming they will give more details later. But if point 1 is YES, then regarding point 2:
If the case A is the planned course of action, I would assume substantially less people would choose "Wait for P2". Whereas if case B is the planned course of action, then people will be more willing to choose that option. And I think there REALLY should be a clear official statement for which one is the actual case. Otherwise we should assume case A, and anyone who hoped for B when choosing the option, would be better off to immediately send an email and ask to change their option to something else.

PS. Actually, even if point 1 is NO, it would still be beneficial to know the case in point 2, because isn't the whole idea to get customers' input on what they would like to do? If we choose "Wait for P2" with wrong base information, it's basically useless to the survey if the real situation is different from what we assumed it would be.