Our New Machine, Pandora

[migo]

Can you supply a quote for that one? I don't remember a single person saying that...

Here's the quote

I hope that the keyboard supports alternate layouts, or comes with Dvorak or Colemak by default instead of QWERTY. Given the size, 10 finger typing is unlikely, and QWERTY is inefficient with 10 finger typing, it gets even worse having to thumb type. Both Dvorak and Colemak are set up to alternate sides, so if you have to type with your thumbs you'd get much faster than with a QWERTY layout where you'd have to type several letters with one thumb before you can get back to the other side.

You can't want something you don't know about, it's not that people prefer QWERTY, it's just that it's the only thing they know. It's similar to comparing an original GameBoy to the GP2X or DS. The gameboy made

Apart from you can immediately change from an original Gameboy to the GP2X or DS without any learning curve. Compare that to 2+ months* for a new keyboard layout.

* - taken from a typical message on the Colemak forum - "My learning experience was about 3 days straight (10-12 hours /day) after that, I could type in Colemak, albeit a bit slowly. Within 2 months I was back to my normal typing speed."


There's no learning curve with the thumboard. I went from Dvorak on my laptop to QWERTY on my E62, the learning curve involved typing with my thumbs, it had nothing to do with the layout. It's a different input system so you don't have to unlearn anything.

 

[migo]

That was the original question; "can it have the layout switched or come with a better one by default" - the debate started when people thought having Dvorak was ridiculous in itself and there shouldn't be the option to even switch it.



I don't think anyone is saying that Dvorak is ridiculous in itself - it's only ridiculous as a default, if only from a marketability standpoint. The sad truth is that a non-qwerty as default would make the device less attractive to buyers, especially when they'll not be typing for long periods on it, in all liklihood, and worse still, typing on QWERTYs in between (e.g. at the office), thus slowing a slow learning curve even more.

But it's always been part of the way it'll be set up (by virtue of running Linux) that you'll be able to swap the layout to a non-default non-qwerty one.


I bought an E62, with a QWERTY keyboard despite prefering Dvorak. I don't see people looking at the Craiginator, seeing all the specs, emulation capabilities, etc, and then going "screw it, it's got Dvorak". The primary benefit of Dvorak and Colemak to me is less RSI, I don't use the thumboard enough on the E62 for that to be an issue, and it's just the thumbs so I'm not sure it would make a difference. I do however notice myself being slowed down considerably with the layout when I have to type several letters in a row with the same thumb. When you've got 2 thumbs, only typing with one will slow you down by half. With a full keyboard, if you're only using 1 hand, you still have 4 fingers and only need 1 finger at any one time, so you can still do allright on a full keyboard. With a thumboard it's a noticeable slowdown. The concern for the learning curve also isn't valid, as it's a different situation. People can type on chording systems and regular keyboards at the same time, it's not a problem.

Although really, I'm much more concerned that the keyboard doesn't suck. The vast majority of them do, and I imagine that GPH don't have the vast experience with thumb keyboards that Nokia and RIM do. If the keyboard physically sucks, it doesn't matter what the layout is.

 

[Exophase]

I don't see people looking at the Craiginator, seeing all the specs, emulation capabilities, etc, and then going "screw it, it's got Dvorak".

I can see that happening ;p

By the way, GPH is not in ANY way involved in this.

 

[CoMiKe]

Oh, please, STOP with the Dvorak thing, migo!

Dvorak is better, we all know (really). But the Craiginator is gonna have a QWERTY keyboard, and craigix will not change it, as the design is already finished.

Don't spoil the thread anymore, please...

PS: Some news from craigix or MWeston would help, though.

 

[teggun]

Will people please stop asking for ridiculous features! please!! If you want a taser you'll have write the device drivers for yourself. end of!

you're joking right?


What? No! The Craiginator will not have a taser in it! or internal bluetooth! or dual SD card slots!!

If you want these things make them yourself!

Although I have no control whatsoever in the design of the device or any other features I'm not having a device that I have no connection to have features that I personally don't need! And I'm going to argue my point for a very very long time even though regardless of what I write on here the design of the device has been finalised ages ago!!!

(apparently..)

 

[Squidge]

I do however notice myself being slowed down considerably with the layout when I have to type several letters in a row with the same thumb. When you've got 2 thumbs, only typing with one will slow you down by half. With

Although really, I'm much more concerned that the keyboard doesn't suck. The vast majority of them do, and I imagine that GPH don't have the vast experience with thumb keyboards that Nokia and RIM do. If the keyboard physically sucks, it doesn't matter what the layout is.

1) How do you know you'll have no option but to type with your thumbs?
2) Yes, keyboard layout does matter. I know for instance (and many other people do too) that, even on a thumbboard, 'y' will always be above 'h', so I can thumb-type only partially looking at the keyboard - I can guess where the next position is going to be. Change it to something non-standard and you'll have to look at the keyboard for every single character pressed until you learn that layout.
3) GPH have no involvement in the 'nator.

 

[moxie]

You can't want something you don't know about, it's not that people prefer QWERTY, it's just that it's the only thing they know.

...and that is because? Oh, because every attempt to sell Dvorak keyboards fail. Because nobody can be bothered to learn something that is unimportant too them, seeing that even on the off chance that dvorak would actually be "more effective" than qwerty (which is not "proven", except from the same kind of logic that usually goes with perpetual motion machines and herbal cancer remedies on the 'net), for 98% of the typing population the limit on their typing speed isn't at all the keyboard, but their own dexterity.


QUOTE

QUOTE

It will, of course, be a no-brainer to redefine the keyboard in software so you can have any layout you want, and maybe it will even be possible to move keycaps around if one likes, but a Dvorak layout as a standard? Nope, the people has already spoken on that one.



That was the original question; "can it have the layout switched or come with a better one by default" - the debate started when people thought having Dvorak was ridiculous in itself and there shouldn't be the option to even switch it.


Nope, as has already been said, there is no reason not to be able to switch to it - That has already been discussed a long time ago, and since we base ourselves on Linux, keyboard redefinition is free.


QUOTE

Traditional and Simplified are the same. Just different names. It was originally called simplified, because the layout was less complex than QWERTY. The traditional distinction came in when right and left handed Dvorak layouts were made for people with only one hand.



...except that since Dvorak is based on the occurance of specific patterns of letters in a language (to keep up the statistical likelihood of left-right-left), it is by nature different for different languages, and for different usage patterns, too. There are something like 3 or 4 competing versions of Dvorak-for-swedish, for instance, and a specific programmers Dvorak that splits the different kinds of braces around.

But from another perspective - If so, one would have an answer to the question "Why do we have another layout" - It is because the langauge is different! Not liken now, where the answer to "Why AZERTY" is "Because you're french, and france must have it's own version of everything" (SECAM, anyone?)

 

[Null]

What? No! The Craiginator will not have a taser in it! or internal bluetooth! or dual SD card slots!!

If you want these things make them yourself!

Although I have no control whatsoever in the design of the device or any other features I'm not having a device that I have no connection to have features that I personally don't need! And I'm going to argue my point for a very very long time even though regardless of what I write on here the design of the device has been finalised ages ago!!!

(apparently..)

You do realise that Xhorders original post was meant to be taken as a joke.

Xhorders OP

 

[moxie]

Can you supply a quote for that one? I don't remember a single person saying that...

Here's the quote...


Nope. The requested quote was the one when someone (not you) replied to you saying that Dvorak is ridiculuos and that there shouldn't even be an option to switch to Dvorak at all.

 

[Squidge]

And I'm going to argue my point for a very very long time even though regardless of what I write on here the design of the device has been finalised ages ago!!!

Hmmm, that sounds just like someone else in this thread

 

[teggun]

You do realise that Xhorders original post was meant to be taken as a joke.

What are you talking about? This is a thread with SERIOUS discussion! No one jokes or goes off topic EVER.

We must stay focused and think about the design! We must! It is our destiny!

SPECULATE, YOU MUST ALL SPECULATE!!!

Aspect Ratios!
Keyboard or No Keyboard?!?!
QWERTY vs DVORAK?!?
Thumbs vs fingers?!?!
Analogue vs digital!?!
THE BATTERY!
Underclocking! Overclocking!
When does the week start??!?! SATURDAY? SUNDAY??!?! WEDNESDAY!!!!??!?
SUPER STRENGTH NEW PLASTIC!!!!!!!!!!
etc. etc.!

 

[migo]

1) How do you know you'll have no option but to type with your thumbs?

Because anything else would be pointless. Positioning like the X360 messaging pad makes the most sense for this type of device.

QUOTE

2) Yes, keyboard layout does matter. I know for instance (and many other people do too) that, even on a thumbboard, 'y' will always be above 'h', so I can thumb-type only partially looking at the keyboard - I can guess where the next position is going to be. Change it to something non-standard and you'll have to look at the keyboard for every single character pressed until you learn that layout.


That's only in instances where the letter is rigt by the previous one. It gets a lot harder when you have to skip over, on account of Fitt's Law.

QUOTE

3) GPH have no involvement in the 'nator.



Alright, either way, it's highly unlikely whoever is involved has as much experience as Nokia and RIM.

 

[CoMiKe]

Aspect Ratios! -> 5:3 (yay, that rocks!).
Keyboard or No Keyboard?!?! -> Keyboard.
QWERTY vs DVORAK?!? -> DVORAK (just change the default position of QWERTY keys).
Thumbs vs fingers?!?! -> Depends on your fingers being like thumbs...
Analogue vs digital!?! -> All of them, all around.
THE BATTERY! -> Phil Collins (ouch, that would be a drummer).
Underclocking! Overclocking! -> ZX Spectrum! PS-One!
When does the week start??!?! SATURDAY? SUNDAY??!?! WEDNESDAY!!!!??!? -> Whatever, it depends on when the week ends.
SUPER STRENGTH NEW PLASTIC!!!!!!!!!! -> Ask Durex.
etc. etc.!

STUPID? -> me.

 

[migo]

Can you supply a quote for that one? I don't remember a single person saying that...

Here's the quote...


Nope. The requested quote was the one when someone (not you) replied to you saying that Dvorak is ridiculuos and that there shouldn't even be an option to switch to Dvorak at all.


Here

Hehe, good point, you must be an idiot if you think that Dvorak would be better on the Craiginator than QWERTY.

And stop it people with your keyboard layout customization crap, you don't want people to start sticking labels on the keyboards the way they intend, cause then how the hell are you gonna do when you'll tell your user to press the W key? Will you go "The W key, that is, the 3rd key on the second row", yay

I'm glad Craig doesn't heed every crappy suggestion on this forum

 

[Null]

You do realise that Xhorders original post was meant to be taken as a joke.

What are you talking about? This is a thread with SERIOUS discussion! No one jokes or goes off topic EVER.

We must stay focused and think about the design! We must! It is our destiny!

SPECULATE, YOU MUST ALL SPECULATE!!!

Aspect Ratios!
Keyboard or No Keyboard?!?!
QWERTY vs DVORAK?!?
Thumbs vs fingers?!?!
Analogue vs digital!?!
THE BATTERY!
Underclocking! Overclocking!
When does the week start??!?! SATURDAY? SUNDAY??!?! WEDNESDAY!!!!??!?
SUPER STRENGTH NEW PLASTIC!!!!!!!!!!
etc. etc.!


I'll take that as a maybe + calm down dear

 

[teggun]

SUPER STRENGTH NEW PLASTIC!!!!!!!!!! -> Ask Durex.

LOL

9/10

 

[migo]

...and that is because? Oh, because every attempt to sell Dvorak keyboards fail.


Funny, I've seen some Dvorak keyboards selling succesfully. Care to provide an example of them failing?

QUOTE
Because nobody can be bothered to learn something that is unimportant too them, seeing that even on the off chance that dvorak would actually be "more effective" than qwerty (which is not "proven", except from the same kind of logic that usually goes with perpetual motion machines and herbal cancer remedies on the 'net), for 98% of the typing population the limit on their typing speed isn't at all the keyboard, but their own dexterity.


And what type of logic is that? There are plenty of clear explanations why Dvorak is better.


QUOTE

...except that since Dvorak is based on the occurance of specific patterns of letters in a language (to keep up the statistical likelihood of left-right-left), it is by nature different for different languages, and for different usage patterns, too. There are something like 3 or 4 competing versions of Dvorak-for-swedish, for instance, and a specific programmers Dvorak that splits the different kinds of braces around.


And what's the most common language of computer users? You could either do Dvorak, which is more efficient for English and neutral for other languages, or you could do QWERTY which is at best neutral for any language.

 

[Magic Sam]

But from another perspective - If so, one would have an answer to the question "Why do we have another layout" - It is because the langauge is different! Not liken now, where the answer to "Why AZERTY" is "Because you're french, and france must have it's own version of everything" (SECAM, anyone?)

Hi,

France is not the only country in the world to use AZERTY keyboards. They are used in some others french speaking countries, like Belgium for instance. It's a matter of language, not people. If the craiginator was a french machine with an AZERTY keyboard forced upon you, I'd like to see your reaction Anyway, as geeks, I think that we are all used to the QWERTY layout, so it's not a real problem

What we need now is some fresh information about the "Beast"

Bye, have a nice day everyone !

Magic Sam

 

[realyst]

QWERTY is a standard.

It's used practically everywhere(with some exceptions).

The Craig3X GameBri-k Express is not a platform for a Worldwide Keyboard Conversion Movement(looking at you, Mingo). You can keep your idealism, I'll keep my keyboard I know how to type with.

Not every standard out there is optimal(html) but most are there for a reason: familiarity, cheap inclusion and interoperability. Yes, interoperability. Remember that word.

If I put down the C3XGBEx and go to my computer keyboard or the keyboard at work, I don't wanna go fumbling around for my damn keys.

Nothing is stopping you from using your own damn keymap. It's been said it'll run on Linux. You can keymap in Linux.

It's been announced it will be QWERTY. If that's enough to put you off on buying it, you have either deeply troubling problems or were not serious in getting it for what it can do anyways, thus aren't worth catering to. If that sounds too blunt: good. 5 pages of "But I like Dvorak" is getting tiring and deserves a bit of a good blunt edge.

No one will doubt Dvorak is better catered to touch-type more efficiently in English. So as long as you touch type, are English, and use Dvorak on every other bloody computer you use for work, then it's for you. All 2 of you.

My 2 cents(2.5 USD).

 

[teggun]

My 2 cents(2.5 after Inflation).

2/10

Glad to see you changed it anyway