Optional 3G/UMTS module

[levi]

According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know), Nokia, Sony and Samsung have all switched to the CTIA standard by last year, and most other Android phones use that standard too.


I don't see it as a standard/non-standard issue by the way. It's the OMTP standard versus the CTIA standard, and neither is more valid than the other.

 

[God Ginrai]

I'm not fond of Apple deliberatly sabotageing common "standards" either, but part of that market is drifting in that direction, and that won't go away.

Don't you realize? The only thing that causes that drift to happen is more products giving in and supporting it.

So my definition of "smart" business would be to give customers the possibility to use both:

 Offering an adaptor for sale does give users the possibility to use both.

ED has had returns because the audio was "broken" and it's only going to be worse with the Pyra. Not giving in and holding strictly to the standard would be ideal but that's all it is: an ideal. Don't confuse ideals with smart business practices.

You've misunderstood me. My point was that keeping to standard and offering an adaptor in his shop was smart business practices. Because then it still will work for Apple compatible headsets if you buy the adaptor, EvilDragon makes sales off of the sale of the adaptor, and EvilDragon doesn't have to spend money and introduce new points of failure into the device to add a switch. That is what I was saying is smart business practices.

That's not t say ED should give in just because it's the market friendly thing to do: frequently ideals are worth fighting for rather than compromising over.

 Agreed.

My good headphones use the standard.

Just have the 2 EUR adapter in stock for those who use substandard headphones, and stick to the standard. No need to ship it with every device, but it may be a good idea to "suggest" getting the adapter to Pyra buyers. It would be useful on the Pandora and other devices too, and maybe there even are adapters that work both ways (allowing you to use standard headphones on nonstandard devices)?

 Agreed. This is the route to go.

I don't see it as a standard/non-standard issue by the way. It's the OMTP standard versus the CTIA standard, and neither is more valid than the other.

That's like calling Xinput a standard. But it's not. It's Microsoft breaking standard and using their vast economical power to enforce it. Just like Apple is doing with the headsets.

-God Ginrai

 

[Granitehead]

Just have the 2 EUR adapter in stock for those who use substandard headphones, and stick to the standard. No need to ship it with every device, but it may be a good idea to "suggest" getting the adapter to Pyra buyers. It would be useful on the Pandora and other devices too

This.
Edit: Accompany the suggestion with a brief summary of what Apple did.

 

[thatgui]

Don't you realize? The only thing that causes that drift to happen is more products giving in and supporting it.

Which the Pyra will have exactly what big of an impact on ? Zero, null, nada ... ?

Offering an adaptor for sale does give users the possibility to use both.

True, but no one wants to use an adapter, especially if the solution could be as easy as. If you need to go that "we need to make a stand" route, isn't it a little akward to say "we don't support 'wrong' standards" but at the same time sell an adapter to make that "wrong standard" still work ?

Nokia started to implement an universal audio connector, which enables the use of both American Headset Jack (AHJ) headsets and standard Nokia OMTP headsets

Source


Don't know if it is a possiblity for Ed to do so too, but maybe he can have a look into it ?

 

[God Ginrai]

Don't you realize? The only thing that causes that drift to happen is more products giving in and supporting it.

Which the Pyra will have exactly what big of an impact on ? Zero, null, nada ... ?

 So? You're saying that just because we might not have an impact that we shouldn't stand against it? Would you say the same to people being oppressed by a dictator?

Offering an adaptor for sale does give users the possibility to use both.

True, but no one wants to use an adapter, especially if the solution could be as easy as. If you need to go that "we need to make a stand" route, isn't it a little akward to say "we don't support 'wrong' standards" but at the same time sell an adapter to make that "wrong standard" still work ?

 You don't have to use an adaptor if you have a headset that supports standards. Also, it's not awkward to sell the adaptor at all. It makes EvilDragon more money, and gives the people who have apple-compatible headsets a way to use their headsets with the Pyra.

-God Ginrai

 

[thatgui]

So? You're saying that just because we might not have an impact that we shouldn't stand against it?

I'm saying we will not have any impact at all. And what will be the end result, even if the "Apple" standard will get the only standard one day ? Will you have any disadvantages, will you not be able to use a certain function or hardware anymore ? > Nope

Would you say the same to people being oppressed by a dictator?

Is this meant serious ?

You don't have to use an adaptor if you have a headset that supports standards.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but as far as I did understand it, the only thing that makes the standard the Pandora currently adheres to more "standard" is that it was implemented prior to the one Apple embraces. No standardization organisation involved just manufacturers having an unspoken agreement, so what justifies to say that one standard is better than the other ?

Also, it's not awkward to sell the adaptor at all. It makes EvilDragon more money, and gives the people who have apple-compatible headsets a way to use their headsets with the Pyra.

Ah ok, so while we should totally refuse to accept different standards, we can make a small exception if Ed could get money out of it ?

 

[God Ginrai]

So? You're saying that just because we might not have an impact that we shouldn't stand against it?

I'm saying we will not have any impact at all. And what will be the end result, even if the "Apple" standard will get the only standard one day ? Will you have any disadvantages, will you not be able to use a certain function or hardware anymore ? > Nope

It's still not worth it to support functionality that conflicts with standard. Arguments like that are the reason I can't use my HID-compliant controller with over half the games that have come out for Windows over the past 3 years. As I've mentioned before, adding a switch creates a new point of failure where things can go wrong.

Would you say the same to people being oppressed by a dictator?

Is this meant serious ?

Yes.

You don't have to use an adaptor if you have a headset that supports standards.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but as far as I did understand it, the only thing that makes the standard the Pandora currently adheres to more "standard" is that it was implemented prior to the one Apple embraces. No standardization organisation involved just manufacturers having an unspoken agreement, so what justifies to say that one standard is better than the other ?

OMTP is a standards organization for mobile platforms. They are the ones who defined the TRRS standard. This is much more than an "unspoken agreement".

Also, it's not awkward to sell the adaptor at all. It makes EvilDragon more money, and gives the people who have apple-compatible headsets a way to use their headsets with the Pyra.

Ah ok, so while we should totally refuse to accept different standards, we can make a small exception if Ed could get money out of it ?

This isn't accepting a standard. This is offering a compromise for your users without accepting that crap as standard.

-God Ginrai

 

[thatgui]

As I've mentioned before, adding a switch creates a new point of failure where things can go wrong.

I never said anything specific about the implementation. But it is interesting that you bring that up: In the USB-B port discussion you had no problem either weaking the case structure or bringing up an "unconventional" (mounting sideways) solution that may get mechanically problematic and in the eMMC vs. microSD Card discussion you had no problem with the flimsy solution Grench presented (sim + msd stacked) as it was serving your argumentation.But a mechanical switch (which the Pandoras headphone jack already has to detect wether something is plugged in or not) is now a big problem ? And who says that this is the only option - maybe Nokia does something different ? And I guess Nokias marketing would not anncounce something like that, if Nokias engenieering department would not have made extensive tests, to make sure this thing won't brake easily.

OMTP is a standards organization for mobile platforms. They are the ones who defined the TRRS standard. This is much more than an "unspoken agreement".

If it is this OMTP, then I was indeed wrong - its an outspoken agreement, but nothing more. Its no Standardization Organisation at all, just a forum for manufacturers and related companies that are giving recommendations. So its only a standard "by use". And with the base beeing formed by communications providers only, they probably have a agenda, that may not only be motivated by finding the most sensible/functional/whatever electrical solution but rather what they think will propell cellphone sales in order to get more customers.

It's still not worth it to support functionality that conflicts with standard. Arguments like that are the reason I can't use my HID-compliant controller with over half the games that have come out for Windows over the past 3 years.

 

This isn't accepting a standard. This is offering a compromise for your users without accepting that crap as standard.

Whats the ultimate goal of standing your ground in that particular case ? Isn't it, that the whole industry reverts back to the way it was ? But how can you achive that if you don't give people an obstacle to overcome ? If they "just" need to buy an adaptor they won't bother much about it and its hard to believe that they will be paying more attention to such a detail when they are buying a new product in the future, so you do indirectly support that standard.

Would you say the same to people being oppressed by a dictator?

Is this meant serious ?

Yes.

So let see: On one side we have something about 80% of the worlds population don't even know about. And even if they were affected the only impact on their lives would be that they need to buy an adaptor. On the other side we have thousands of years of people beeing bullied, beaten, banished, tortured, raped, killed, etc. etc. etc..If this is what you want to say, you saved us a lot of time, as I refuse to debate with someone that shares such a mindset.

 

[Natsu]

Mind showing this off in a video?

 

[God Ginrai]

As I've mentioned before, adding a switch creates a new point of failure where things can go wrong.

I never said anything specific about the implementation. But it is interesting that you bring that up: In the USB-B port discussion you had no problem either weaking the case structure or bringing up an "unconventional" (mounting sideways) solution that may get mechanically problematic and in the eMMC vs. microSD Card discussion you had no problem with the flimsy solution Grench presented (sim + msd stacked) as it was serving your argumentation.

 First off, I never suggested or agreed with weakening the case structure of the device. That is a blatant lie.

Second, mounting sideways was a suggestion I made on the assumption that it would not be mechanically problematic.

Third, Grench's solution was not "flimsy".

And lastly, none of these subjects have any bearing on the topic at hand. All you are doing right now is flinging dirt at me to try to discredit me, which is, honestly, incredibly immature.

OMTP is a standards organization for mobile platforms. They are the ones who defined the TRRS standard. This is much more than an "unspoken agreement".

If it is this OMTP, then I was indeed wrong - its an outspoken agreement, but nothing more. Its no Standardization Organisation at all, just a forum for manufacturers and related companies that are giving recommendations. So its only a standard "by use". And with the base beeing formed by communications providers only, they probably have a agenda, that may not only be motivated by finding the most sensible/functional/whatever electrical solution but rather what they think will propell cellphone sales in order to get more customers.

 What is a Standards Organization if not an organization composed of related parties that determine the path of the field?

It's still not worth it to support functionality that conflicts with standard. Arguments like that are the reason I can't use my HID-compliant controller with over half the games that have come out for Windows over the past 3 years.

 

This isn't accepting a standard. This is offering a compromise for your users without accepting that crap as standard.

Whats the ultimate goal of standing your ground in that particular case ? Isn't it, that the whole industry reverts back to the way it was ? But how can you achive that if you don't give people an obstacle to overcome ? If they "just" need to buy an adaptor they won't bother much about it and its hard to believe that they will be paying more attention to such a detail when they are buying a new product in the future, so you do indirectly support that standard.

No, my ultimate goal is to have a solid device that won't have problems, and to not to have to pay extra due to Apple's bullying of the industry. Plus, not giving in to Apple is its own reward.

Would you say the same to people being oppressed by a dictator?

Is this meant serious ?

Yes.

So let see: On one side we have something about 80% of the worlds population don't even know about. And even if they were affected the only impact on their lives would be that they need to buy an adaptor. On the other side we have thousands of years of people beeing bullied, beaten, banished, tortured, raped, killed, etc. etc. etc..If this is what you want to say, you saved us a lot of time, as I refuse to debate with someone that shares such a mindset.

My comment was not about the gravity of the deed, but the mindset of accepting foul play just because the one doing it has so much power. If you are unable to see that, then that's your own problem.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

Just to add fuel to the fire I just discovered that the headset for the STM32437i-eval board uses the Apple standard. This is just a MCU dev board, it's not meant for phones or tablets or whatever, they have no political interest one way or the other, yet they chose the Apple format.

 

[Neelix]

It's all very well to stand on principle, but you have to pick your battles.  I believe this one is a lost cause.

According to that wikipedia article linked earlier, HTC, Nokia, Samsung, Sony,  Wiko, and CTIA have all adopted this new configuration. 

Put simply, industry is moving on and accepting Apple's configuration as the new standard, and if Pyra doesn't support it it will be the odd device out. Increasingly so over time.   Issues with incompatible headsets will cause support headaches for ED and damage the reputation of the Pyra.

That's why I think we need to support both versions without an external adaptor. A physical switch would be the easiest way to do this,  though I suppose an electronic switch toggled by a GPIO could also work.   (Or one of Nokia's universal connectors though I somehow doubt they'd be willing to share.)

- Neelix

 

[thatgui]

First off, I never suggested or agreed with weakening the case structure of the device. That is a blatant lie.

You certainly did not say "lets weaken the case", but you were willing to pay the price: I and other people mentioned that the case would be too small to include such a big connector. Then we started the "lets measure things" game and in the end (with additonal help from a technical drawing of the particular usb port) it was obvious that in order to include it the case would have to be made thinner (I pointed that out too).

Second, mounting sideways was a suggestion I made on the assumption that it would not be mechanically problematic.

And you repeated that suggestion several times, with at least me questioning that heavily. But again no response.
As there was no further comment from your side like "maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all" I concluded, that at least one of these options would be an acceptable price to pay for you. So I do not see any "blatant lie"

Third, Grench's solution was not "flimsy".

Let see, we have a component that has to meet the following criteria:- it has to be thin, as it will be inculded in portable devices.

- it has to be somewhat cheap to produce as nobody wants to pay a lot for non "electronic" components on a pcb

With that in mind, you get a mechanical construct that will be of cheap thin metal, with only a minimal amount of space for a hinge like mechanism. Which is designed as simple as possible so production does not make the component more expensive than necessary. Why will it not be flimsy again ?

And lastly, none of these subjects have any bearing on the topic at hand. All you are doing right now is flinging dirt at me to try to discredit me, which is, honestly, incredibly immature.

Of course they do as you specifically adressed a point: "durability" (totally uncalled for as I was not specific about the implementation at all). So I did, what you did, I put things into scale (just not that dramatic).

What is a Standards Organization if not an organization composed of related parties that determine the path of the field?

The Omtp is an association of carriers and manufacturers nothing more not like the ISO or the ANSI. With that in mind I'd like to answer that question with another question. How many companies have to associate in order to become a "Standards Organization" in you terms ? Or do some members need to have to exceed a certain size ?What about smaller associations ? Do they need to adhere to "standards" that a bigger one sets, so that they do "the right thing" ?

No, my ultimate goal is to have a solid device that won't have problems, and to not to have to pay extra due to Apple's bullying of the industry. Plus, not giving in to Apple is its own reward.

You are evading the question.

My comment was not about the gravity of the deed, but the mindset of accepting foul play just because the one doing it has so much power. If you are unable to see that, then that's your own problem.

The only thing I see is that you uncessarilly scaled things up in order to put it in a bigger picture about struggels of humanity to strengthen your point, which I find rather odd in a context of the computer industry where the next "standard" is always around corner.
And wasn't it you, that said "..so it's not as far spread as you think" - so who has how much power now ?

 

[klapse]

One of my main uses of the Pandora is as an audio player for my hifi system. If the Apple connector is chosen, I hope there are 1/8"-to-RCA (cinch) cables available for it.

As for the UMTS module, I would not use it but rather tether the Pyra to my phone. Multiple data plans would be too expensive for me.

 

[WizardStan]

If the Apple connector is chosen, I hope there are 1/8"-to-RCA (cinch) cables available for it.

The Apple connector has no effect if you're just using stereo audio output. The only time it causes a problem is when using a TRRS connector with a microphone on it. For your audio playback needs the chosen connector makes no difference and you can use any 1/8" to RCA adapter that already exists. Unless your hifi system has a microphone output on it that you want to take advantage of, then you'd probably need one of the $2 adapters that were linked earlier before using the RCA adapter.

 

[God Ginrai]

First off, I never suggested or agreed with weakening the case structure of the device. That is a blatant lie.

You certainly did not say "lets weaken the case", but you were willing to pay the price: I and other people mentioned that the case would be too small to include such a big connector. Then we started the "lets measure things" game and in the end (with additonal help from a technical drawing of the particular usb port) it was obvious that in order to include it the case would have to be made thinner (I pointed that out too).

This is the most disturbing leap of logic I've ever seen. I thought it would fit, otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it.

Second, mounting sideways was a suggestion I made on the assumption that it would not be mechanically problematic.

And you repeated that suggestion several times, with at least me questioning that heavily. But again no response.
As there was no further comment from your side like "maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all" I concluded, that at least one of these options would be an acceptable price to pay for you. So I do not see any "blatant lie"

Just because I just said I made it on the assumption that it would not be mechanically problematic does not mean I admit it is. No one provided any solid proof in that topic that it would be mechanically problematic. And the reason I kept mentioning it is due to that.

Third, Grench's solution was not "flimsy".

Let see, we have a component that has to meet the following criteria:- it has to be thin, as it will be inculded in portable devices.

- it has to be somewhat cheap to produce as nobody wants to pay a lot for non "electronic" components on a pcb

With that in mind, you get a mechanical construct that will be of cheap thin metal, with only a minimal amount of space for a hinge like mechanism. Which is designed as simple as possible so production does not make the component more expensive than necessary. Why will it not be flimsy again ?

By that reasoning, anything intended to fit onto a PCB is flimsy.

And lastly, none of these subjects have any bearing on the topic at hand. All you are doing right now is flinging dirt at me to try to discredit me, which is, honestly, incredibly immature.

Of course they do as you specifically adressed a point: "durability" (totally uncalled for as I was not specific about the implementation at all). So I did, what you did, I put things into scale (just not that dramatic).

Oh gee, durability. IIRC, that was the reason I supported USB-B, too. It seems like there is a theme. You once again miss the point that my comments in both topics are supporting making a handheld that lasts.

What is a Standards Organization if not an organization composed of related parties that determine the path of the field?

The Omtp is an association of carriers and manufacturers nothing more not like the ISO or the ANSI. With that in mind I'd like to answer that question with another question. How many companies have to associate in order to become a "Standards Organization" in you terms ? Or do some members need to have to exceed a certain size ?What about smaller associations ? Do they need to adhere to "standards" that a bigger one sets, so that they do "the right thing" ?

Well, I would assume that an organization that includes all the major players and even some smaller ones is comprehensive enough to define standards. I'm not quite sure why you would think otherwise.

No, my ultimate goal is to have a solid device that won't have problems, and to not to have to pay extra due to Apple's bullying of the industry. Plus, not giving in to Apple is its own reward.

You are evading the question.

No I'm not. You asked if the ultimate goal was to change the industry. I answered "No". Then I pointed out that what my ultimate goal was: a device that won't have hardware problems. You are only claiming I am evading the question because my answer is not the one you assumed.

My comment was not about the gravity of the deed, but the mindset of accepting foul play just because the one doing it has so much power. If you are unable to see that, then that's your own problem.

The only thing I see is that you uncessarilly scaled things up in order to put it in a bigger picture about struggels of humanity to strengthen your point, which I find rather odd in a context of the computer industry where the next "standard" is always around corner.

No, the next "innovation" is always around the corner. Something doesn't become a standard until it is agreed upon and widely used. HD DVD and Blurary were both "around the corner" when the 360 and PS3 were about to come out, but neither were a standard until Bluray beat HD DVD and all the companies began to adopt it.

And wasn't it you, that said "..so it's not as far spread as you think" - so who has how much power now ?

I did say that. Just because not everyone has adopted that does not mean that Apple does not have power. Hell, if they didn't have power enough to cause some companies to convert, we wouldn't even be having this argument right now.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

Third, Grench's solution was not "flimsy".

Let see, we have a component that has to meet the following criteria:- it has to be thin, as it will be inculded in portable devices.

- it has to be somewhat cheap to produce as nobody wants to pay a lot for non "electronic" components on a pcb

With that in mind, you get a mechanical construct that will be of cheap thin metal, with only a minimal amount of space for a hinge like mechanism. Which is designed as simple as possible so production does not make the component more expensive than necessary. Why will it not be flimsy again ?

By that reasoning, anything intended to fit onto a PCB is flimsy.

....

-God Ginrai

Actually - the hinged combo sim/microSD slot that I had linked to is quite robust:

http://www.globalconnectortechnology.com/gctconnexion/mes3055/

It is rated to 5,000 insertion cycles, rated to MIL and EIA standards and can sustain a 50G shock load.

For a feature on a circuit board, I would not call that even remotely flimsy. In fact, it's likely more robust than any single purpose connectors we're likely to find.

That said, I would like either a physical or GPIO controlled switch in the unit to allow us to set the plug to match our intended headphones. It isn't hard. It only switches the mic and ground lines. Both types of headphones exist in the world - in nearly equal numbers. Regardless of politics (Apple hate?), they both exist and it would be a great convenience for Pyra purchasers to be able to buy whatever headphone they want, set the switch/setting, plug them in, and go. No ugly adapters, no issues.

 

[God Ginrai]

Third, Grench's solution was not "flimsy".

Let see, we have a component that has to meet the following criteria:- it has to be thin, as it will be inculded in portable devices.

- it has to be somewhat cheap to produce as nobody wants to pay a lot for non "electronic" components on a pcb

With that in mind, you get a mechanical construct that will be of cheap thin metal, with only a minimal amount of space for a hinge like mechanism. Which is designed as simple as possible so production does not make the component more expensive than necessary. Why will it not be flimsy again ?

By that reasoning, anything intended to fit onto a PCB is flimsy.

....

-God Ginrai

Actually - the hinged combo sim/microSD slot that I had linked to is quite robust:

http://www.globalconnectortechnology.com/gctconnexion/mes3055/

It is rated to 5,000 insertion cycles, rated to MIL and EIA standards and can sustain a 50G shock load.

For a feature on a circuit board, I would not call that even remotely flimsy. In fact, it's likely more robust than any single purpose connectors we're likely to find.

Oh, make no mistake. I had no doubts that what you suggested was robust. (Otherwise, I'm sure slaeshjag would have taken issue with it) It was thatgui who was calling it flimsy.

-God Ginrai

 

[Natsu]

IDk, I think I agree with God Ginrai with this one. An adapter should be enough.

 

[klapse]

Why are we discussing this? If a normal 1/8 headphone will work, who cares if it is apple or not? Why would you hook up headphones with microphone to a Pyra?