Thoughts on wireless hardware

[Binky]

^ hmm.

I'm thinking, what with that and the big antennas, high power consumption, it might be better to drop the TV reciever.

Radio's still good though

 

[Caine]

I wonder if a software defined radio would be a viable way of decoding many standards?

I am a bit worried about the powerdraw for Software defined radio. Radio already tends to consume quite a bit and SDR will only make it worse.Does anyone have any figures on this?

 

[FBnil]

I rather have AM radio than DAB+:

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1611706

I mean we would need minimum of 5-10 years of DAB+ installed into cars/steroes/amps/ before they cut it off. By then, we will all be talking about the DragonBox 4.

Otoh, it would be leet to have it now, but the more people buy into it, the faster it will go.

 

[WizardStan]

I am a bit worried about the powerdraw for Software defined radio

Radio receivers actually require very very little power. There's a radio you can build which is powered by the very signal it is receiving: you can listen to music without requiring any external power at all. These radios are probably not that efficient and would require some kind of power source but I would be surprised if it were substantial.And CPU decoding of the signal shouldn't be that intensive, FM demodulation is much simpler than MP3 decoding. Might run into a bit more draw on the DVB side since it would have to demodulate the signal and then decode it as well.

Unless the radio is doing the demodulation already, I should look into that, in which case FM radio would just be streaming data directly to the DAC, DAB would have about the same complexity as playing MP3s, and DVB is no worse than playing an MPEG2/4 file.

And as always, if you are miles from home and don't want to risk running the battery dry, just turn the radio off, don't use it.

 

[Grench]

^ hmm.

I'm thinking, what with that and the big antennas, high power consumption, it might be better to drop the TV reciever.

Radio's still good though

How about this then?  Radios limited to ONLY WiFi, Bluetooth and GPS.  4 antennas should be enough for a 150mm wide device.

2.4Ghz Bluetooth

2.4Ghz 802.11b/g/n WiFi

5Ghz 802.11 a/n WiFi

1575.4Mhz GPS (receive only)

No 3G/4G (phone).  No TV - from any nation or region.  No AM or FM audio radios.

I would still really like to have a connector for an external 2.4Ghz WiFi antenna - but that may just be me.

 

[thatgui]

Personally, I don't see the need to include any radio (analog or digital) or TV functionality: usefullness is too limited to single users and the country the user lives in, while costs, board complexity and support complexity rise (maybe not much in some cases, but they do).

Letting aside the fact that you can use appropriate USB hardware as a substitute, both functionalities can be "compensated" with a xG modem (I know there are dataplans an such, so costs arise).

Bottom line: don't pack in too many features => keep it simple

 

[Binky]

usefullness is too limited to single users and the country the user lives in

I thought that chip with FM/FM-RDS/HD/AM/DAB/DAB+/DMB accounted for most of the world?

 

[thatgui]

usefullness is too limited to single users and the country the user lives in

 I thought that chip with FM/FM-RDS/HD/AM/DAB/DAB+/DMB accounted for most of the world?

Don't know for sure, just took a quick look at wikipedia: Japan and the south american continent are not accounted for, for example.
But thats not my main point: do we really need this ? Or isn't a usb dongle Ok for that ?

 

[Binky]

isn't a usb dongle Ok for that ?

Many people (myself included) like to listen to audio with headphones while the device is in their pocket. Using a USB dongle, Unless it was a tiny one, would prevent this, and make the Pyra a far worse device for listening to broadcast radio.

The same is not true of television, since the device must be in open space in front of you to seen the screen.

 

[thatgui]

isn't a usb dongle Ok for that ?

Many people (myself included) like to listen to audio with headphones while the device is in their pocket. Using a USB dongle, Unless it was a tiny one, would prevent this, and make the Pyra a far worse device for listening to broadcast radio.

The same is not true of television, since the device must be in open space in front of you to seen the screen.

How many of them would buy a Pyra, and how many of that special group do not have a phone that already implements that ? I do not want to say that this would be a totally useless feature (altough I rarely listen to radio), just that weighing it against the costs - space, money, complexity in integration, additional support that has to be given, it just does not "pay off" from my point of view. And with a possible xG Module you even have an alternative: streaming

 

[Granitehead]

And with a possible xG Module you even have an alternative: streaming

Which costs more in a single month than what you pay for that chip with FM/FM-RDS/HD/AM/DAB/DAB+/DMB.

 

[WizardStan]

How many of them would buy a Pyra, and how many of that special group do not have a phone that already implements that ?

Enough that it's at least worth considering a $10 feature addition it seems. Investigation could show that they're just a tiny minority and it really isn't worth the $10 but we won't know that until it's been figured out. It may even cost less than $10 to add the feature, as low as $3 perhaps.

 

[Binky]

Data over mobile-phone networks costs around 5p (=0.05GBP) per MB

Streaming BBC radio using their radioplayer page on 'high' settings uses around 20KB/s (which is comparable to BBC DAB broadcasts)

If one were to listen to half an hour of radio per day for a year streamed over a mobile phone network, it would cost around £650 ($1000) by my calculations.

The module itself costs around £10 - £15.

Does that not count as paying for itself?

I should say that the data on data cost was a few years old. It could be down to half that for all I know. My point still stands.

 

[WizardStan]

And with a possible xG Module you even have an alternative: streaming

Did you seriously suggest an $50 cell module which requires significant certification and licensing and is in no way easy to implement in a way that will work globally over a $10 chip that is trivial to add, requires no additional certification, and will work basically everywhere in the world?

 

[thatgui]

Does that not count as paying for itself?

The problem here in terms of costs its not only to buy that electronic part. It has to be integrated, which costs space and a small amount of money, but adds to the complexity of the board, and its something that has to be officially supported and also is something that could break (not verly likely but still possible, putting more things into something raises the "likelyhood of breakage"). With only a small "win" on the other side, radio receivers are put into cellphones and mp3 players over the last years, with manufacturers fading them out again - the userbase is just not very big.
Sure we can put it in, but where to stop then ? Why not put in an RC Tranceiver to control RC - Cars and such ? I guess there are about the same amount of users that would like that equal to a "radio-modul".

 

[thatgui]

And with a possible xG Module you even have an alternative: streaming

Did you seriously suggest an $50 cell module which requires significant certification and licensing and is in no way easy to implement in a way that will work globally over a $10 chip that is trivial to add, requires no additional certification, and will work basically everywhere in the world?

Why should I ? Altough it is not 100% sure that it will make it into the Pyra, ED has stated that he is looking into it. Unless he announces that xG won't make it into the Pyra, is see no reason not to "work with it".

 

[WizardStan]

Why should I ? Altough it is not 100% sure that it will make it into the Pyra, ED has stated that he is looking into it. Unless he announces that xG won't make it into the Pyra, is see no reason not to "work with it".

Because the arguments you used against the FM receiver apply even stronger against the xG modules.

 

[thatgui]

Why should I ? Altough it is not 100% sure that it will make it into the Pyra, ED has stated that he is looking into it. Unless he announces that xG won't make it into the Pyra, is see no reason not to "work with it".

Because the arguments you used against the FM receiver apply even stronger against the xG modules.

Leaving aside the fact, that a xG module has a lot more use cases than a radio module and can even be considered a marketing argument, I can't argue much against it - if Ed made up his mind, there is nothing I can do about it.

 

[WizardStan]

I can't argue much against it

You argued against an FM receiver because it adds cost, adds size, adds complexity of integration, requires official support, and will be underutilized.The xG module adds even more cost, requires more space, is signifcantly more complex, requires a lot more in support, and regardless of the number of use cases you can think of it will still be extremely underutilized for a number of reasons.

Every argument you gave against radio applies even more to the xG module. The only argument in favour of the module vs the radio is that ED mentioned an interest in it. If you're going to argue for one thing over another it is imperative that you use arguments that can only be applied to the thing you don't want.

To answer your rhetorical question "Why not put in an RC Tranceiver to control RC - Cars and such ?", because no one asked. If no one asks then there's no point in investigating it. Do you seriously want such a feature? Do you want me to look up some stuff on it and demonstrate why it specifically wouldn't be a good idea?

 

[Binky]

With only a small "win" on the other side, radio receivers are put into cellphones and mp3 players over the last years, with manufacturers fading them out again - the userbase is just not very big.

Suppose 10% of users save  $1000 per year by having a radio receiver instead of streaming.

Does it cost $100 per device to add a chip, circuit board tracks and pads, and deal with any additional production issues (including returns due to failure)?

Big companies have been phasing out buttons and clamshells too. They make production much harder. Maybe the Pyra shouldn't have either of those?