Of cases and batteries

[Tenka]

These clips, are they just a guide for the back of the lid to slide along?  Remove the single screw and then the lid can simply slide off?  That sounds possible independant of case material.

Or is removing it going to require bending the plastic and clicking things apart?

 

[Natsu]

I was always for clips for the battery pack, but I'm not sure about the lid. This may sound silly, but maybe make it wider for only the shoulder buttons and then curve the rest of the side inward.  Lol

A charger should come with it, of course.  I'm sure some people are still hoping for wireless charging.

 

[thatgui]

However, to fit the display, they increased the width of the device by 1,4cm... something we don't want (right? )

They tried to keep the screws in the lid, but I rather want them removed and have some other way to fix the lid (i.e. with clips - but better ones we had on the Pandora) and keep one screw in the middle area.

Thanks for trying to keep the size increases minimal. The Pandora is already on the brink of not beeing pocketable anymore, increasing the size by such an amount would have made it a lot less attractive for me. I would have liked screws instead of clips - they are always a hassle if you want to open something up and you don't start at the right point and with the right angle. I have seen to many clips "fly away" during such a process to be really happy about that, but as a compromise I am Ok with.But if everything else is kept together by clips, why is there a need for a screw in the middle area ?

This is now being worked on. It will change the shoulder buttons a bit as well, but hopefully, not too much.

I'll update you once I got the next design - which will then also be printed for a test with the prototype PCBs.

I'm quite curious how this design will work out. Doesn't look very comfortable to use to me, lets see how it fairs in a real life test.

The last missing component is the LCD cable - and prototypes are being produced now as well.

I don't know yet when we'll receive them, but hopefully it'll be end of February as well.

They're a lot more simple as the Pandora cables, as they have less traces, only use one side (not two), have less edges (and all of them are rounded) and no electrical components on them.

All traces are redundant as well, so if one trace breaks, the cable still works fine. Two traces of the same signal would have to break to make the cable go bad - and that should not be that likely.

Still don't get why the redudancy is needed. If one trace breaks its a lot more likely its just a sympton for another problem, which will take care of the redundant trace too pretty soon.Are other solution for the display connection not viable or just too expensive? After looking back at all the RMA cases, as far as I can tell, the screen cable is by far the one that caused the most trouble and costs. In my opinion its a flawed design in its basics, and I can't wrap my head around why it will make it into the final product, after all the (financial) trouble it had caused in the Pandora.

We should now also start to think about the packaging (what items we'll include, what package design we'll choose), etc.

I'll probably start a poll about the items as well.

I know there a people that need a fancy package for reasons I'm not willing to give a single thought, but for me the most simple one is the best > just a bland cardboard box. Packages are quickly moved to the attic and usually thrown out after the warranty has expired - why waste money on that?Maybe you could let the guy that designed the box for ekianjo make a design and put it on the server as a pdf/designfile, so people who really need it, could just print it out for themselfs.

Clips are not bad itself - they need to be done properly.

Most devices use clips. I've got a Nexus 7 and Droid 4, and the latter one has fallen to the ground multiple times already - from 1m height to the street, etc.

The battery compartment (clips) never opened or broke.

Clips have been used within cars for ages, the whole outer chassis contains hardly any screws nowadays. If you see how a car mechanic removes some of those parts without breaking any clips, one does start to believe in the existence of "good" clips...

Both cases are not comparable as the phones don't need to deal with a battery as heavy as the Pandoras/Pyras and the case design is completly different regarding the balance point.Clips for car parts are a totally different thing too, and are a real pain to work with if you have no clue where to start - I have watched enough untrained workers in car factories trying to remove parts again.

A proper comparison would the the countless remote controls I have seen in my life with taped on battery lids, because the remote was dropped too often.

But this is all no problem anymore as:

And that's without a fixture screw that the Pyra will have at least.

Yes, thanks, no more worries I have to tape up my Pyras battery lid at some point !

She must have really small hands then. " Well I can imagine that this is an issue for some people. However, it's mostly the design of the case, not only the size. The Pandora is very "bricky" and thick, so you have more trouble to reach the buttons than you would have with a thinner case of the same size. More rounded edges can help there too, even with a slightly bigger case.

Its not about just reaching a key, its about accomplishing this comfortably without constantly strechting your fingers as far as possible

 

[ekianjo]

Still don't get why the redudancy is needed. If one trace breaks its a lot more likely its just a sympton for another problem, which will take care of the redundant trace too pretty soon.

Why not ? Planes are based on redundancies as well, so that they don't crash right when they have a single problem. Redundancies are welcome and will increase the shelf life of the cable.  

 

[thatgui]

Still don't get why the redudancy is needed. If one trace breaks its a lot more likely its just a sympton for another problem, which will take care of the redundant trace too pretty soon.

 Why not ? Planes are based on redundancies as well, so that they don't crash right when they have a single problem. Redundancies are welcome and will increase the shelf life of the cable.

Different scenario, redudancies are there to prevent fatal consequences - if the main system fails and the redundant system gets activated, the whole setup is exhanged. No plane will (or at least should) take off again, after the backup kicked in.If one trace fails on the Pyra, your Pyra will still work, but not for long as what has killed the first trace will kill the redundant one too. So there is no real benefit other than the RMA process is started a few hours/days/weeks later. But as hinted in my initial post, the point is moot as it has already been settled that the Pyra will go this route again, I would just like to understand why this - from my point of view - rather "insane" decision was made.

 

[ekianjo]

If one trace fails on the Pyra, your Pyra will still work, but not for long as what has killed the first trace will kill the redundant one too. So there is no real benefit other than the RMA process is started a few hours/days/weeks later. But as hinted in my initial post, the point is moot as it has already been settled that the Pyra will go this route again, I would just like to understand why this - from my point of view - rather "insane" decision was made.

WHy not ? I don't even understand your points. 

If the normal cable with one trace only last for 2 years, with redundant traces it would last for maybe 3 or 4 at least. What's wrong with that? It means much less RMAs in the end and more robust traces because there are less of them on that new cable. 

On top of that, have you got the latest LCD cable from the Pandora, the one that was remade to be stronger? It's been close to 2 years I have mine, and it's still working fine and I am using my Pandora an awful lot, so I'm not sure what you are worried about, seriously. The Pyra's LCD cable will only be better than that and that should be amply sufficient. 

 

[thatgui]

WHy not ? I don't even understand your points. 

If the normal cable with one trace only last for 2 years, with redundant traces it would last for maybe 3 or 4 at least. What's wrong with that? It means much less RMAs in the end and more robust traces because there are less of them on that new cable.

Thats exactly my point, there is no reason to believe that a redudant trace will automatically double the liftime. My point is, if the first breaks, then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, which won't skip on the second trace, just because it screams "but I'm the redudancy" before it dies.

On top of that, have you got the latest LCD cable from the Pandora, the one that was remade to be stronger? It's been close to 2 years I have mine, and it's still working fine and I am using my Pandora an awful lot, so I'm not sure what you are worried about, seriously. The Pyra's LCD cable will only be better than that and that should be amply sufficient.

So ? There are enough cases on these boards and in the support system that prove that this solution is far from beeing optimal, you provide just anecdotical value: using the same premise I could start speculating that all people that make comments on the better quality of the new (silver) cases are wrong, just because my first batch black case is still having no real problem.And again, this case is settled (at least I have serious doubts, ED has a sudden change of mind, just because I am whining), I just want to know the reasons why Ed choose to take that route again.

 

[bzar]

WHy not ? I don't even understand your points. 

If the normal cable with one trace only last for 2 years, with redundant traces it would last for maybe 3 or 4 at least. What's wrong with that? It means much less RMAs in the end and more robust traces because there are less of them on that new cable.

Thats exactly my point, there is no reason to believe that a redudant trace will automatically double the liftime. My point is, if the first breaks, then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, which won't skip on the second trace, just because it screams "but I'm the redudancy" before it dies.

Suppose the source of the fault only affects one side of the cable, such as rubbing against the case. In this case the redundant traces keep the unit operational. Also consider a faulty trace in production. The redundancy drops the fault rate, turning otherwise faulty units into "just" ones without the redundancy on all traces, which is what you're after. Here are two upsides, where's the downside?

 

[Bosbeetle]

Still don't get why the redudancy is needed. If one trace breaks its a lot more likely its just a sympton for another problem, which will take care of the redundant trace too pretty soon.

Why not ? Planes are based on redundancies as well, so that they don't crash right when they have a single problem. Redundancies are welcome and will increase the shelf life of the cable.  

All life is full of redundancy most functions inside cells are as redundant as it gets with 3 or 4 proteins capable of the same task, feedback loops, etc. A great system that keeps most of us relativly healthy I think the pyra will be healthy as well.

 

[thatgui]

Suppose the source of the fault only affects one side of the cable, such as rubbing against the case. In this case the redundant traces keep the unit operational. Also consider a faulty trace in production. The redundancy drops the fault rate, turning otherwise faulty units into "just" ones without the redundancy on all traces, which is what you're after. Here are two upsides, where's the downside?

I considered both cases, and I see no reason to believe that both cases only affect one trace but not the other. The downside is, that in my opinion this just creates a false idea of a failsafe cable, which I deem not true.
Edit: To explain my train of thought a little further:

Consider a scenario where a worker inserts the cable wrong, which is something that would not get detected during QA. So the device gets shipped, and the inner working of the hinge starts grinding on the display cable, cutting off the trace at some point. With the redudancy in place now shouldering things this won't get detected by the customer as the device seems to work perfectly. But with every day the redundant trace postpones the feedback from the customer (through a support request), the bigger the chance that more devices with same wrongly inserted cable get shipped.

 

[ekianjo]

There are enough cases on these boards and in the support system that prove that this solution is far from beeing optimal,

As far as I know, no "new LCD cable" has failed so far. Only the ones that were from the original production.  

I just want to know the reasons why Ed choose to take that route again.

He already explained in another post why he could not use a MIPI cable and why a custom LCD cable had to be created.  

if the first breaks, then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, which won't skip on the second trace, just because it screams "but I'm the redudancy" before it dies.

Redundancies mean that there is less chance something happens twice in different places. If the redundancy is designed properly where it stops working in the first place should not be in the same place for the second one.  

 

[ekianjo]

But with every day the redundant trace postpones the feedback from the customer (through a support request), the bigger the chance that more devices with same wrongly inserted cable get shipped.

Even if that was happening, what's the down side ? People get working units. The user could not care less if there is redundancy or not, as long as it works for them, because that's what they see. The day it stops working, then the RMA process will work as usual, and if it's a design issue I believe ED will handle it the same way as now, i.e. no costs for the customer.

For all you care there could be tons of products that you buy without any redundancy altogether, so why are you focusing so much on that point where it's better to have it than not ? 

 

[EvilDragon]

If you read the posts about the LCD cable failures, you'll find out that everyone is talking about a pinkish screen (the purple tint of death).


This means that it's always the SAME trace that fails.


So whatever breaks the cable (rubbing at the case, etc.) happens with that one trace, not with a different one.


So far there's no reason other traces will die as well, as it's always the same one.

 

[bzar]

Consider a scenario where a worker inserts the cable wrong, which is something that would not get detected during QA. So the device gets shipped, and the inner working of the hinge starts grinding on the display cable, cutting off the trace at some point. With the redudancy in place now shouldering things this won't get detected by the customer as the device seems to work perfectly. But with every day the redundant trace postpones the feedback from the customer (through a support request), the bigger the chance that more devices with same wrongly inserted cable get shipped.

If the cable's traces are mirrored the cable would need to eat halfway through itself before any visible problems occur. You think this is worse than having it snap the moment one trace gives up?

 

[ible]

Yeah, it's not like we need both kidneys, or both lungs. Two eyes/ears do help with 3d effects, but really that's not what two traces would be used for. Redundancy is therefore useless.

[/sarcasm]

I think unmirrored would be even better, in case the cable gets eaten from outside in -- for a mirrored configuration, that would kill your first trace and its redundancy, right?

 

[Zink]

Any word yet on the status of the hinge and/or if you have been able to find a laptop-style (tension) version that will fit the Pyra?

I also would welcome a better hinge solution. The current hinge style could stay, but two things must be improved:

1. The hinge's work force must be higher - it's now too low, as it cannot hold the lid in other positions than nearly vertical.

2. The socket in the lid that the hinge sits in - the plastic is soft and quickly wears off resulting in the backlash/looseness. The solution to that would be a metal socket with more solid connection with the surrounding plastic.

 

[thatgui]

As far as I know, no "new LCD cable" has failed so far. Only the ones that were from the original production.

Afaik there was a new batch of cables that failed as well

He already explained in another post why he could not use a MIPI cable and why a custom LCD cable had to be created.

Hmm, missed that then, thanks for the hint.

Even if that was happening, what's the down side ? People get working units. The user could not care less if there is redundancy or not, as long as it works for them, because that's what they see. The day it stops working, then the RMA process will work as usual, and if it's a design issue I believe ED will handle it the same way as now, i.e. no costs for the customer.

The downside is that this has potential for negative news about the build quality of the product, and an increased costs for RMA processes for the company.

For all you care there could be tons of products that you buy without any redundancy altogether, so why are you focusing so much on that point where it's better to have it than not ?

? You brought forth no reason why this should be the case other than "I said so", and now your building up on that ?

If you read the posts about the LCD cable failures, you'll find out that everyone is talking about a pinkish screen (the purple tint of death).

This means that it's always the SAME trace that fails.

So whatever breaks the cable (rubbing at the case, etc.) happens with that one trace, not with a different one.

So far there's no reason other traces will die as well, as it's always the same one.

Interesting to know, but didn't the company that produced the cables made some kind of investigation, what actually was wrong with the cables that failed?

If the cable's traces are mirrored the cable would need to eat halfway through itself before any visible problems occur. You think this is worse than having it snap the moment one trace gives up?

If you want to view it from the "I don't care if I don't see it" point of view, then I guess you are fine. But if there is a potential problem I am more inclined to learn about it rather sooner then later. Or are you happy with a product that has a higher potential of failure in it, as long as you don't notice it?

Yeah, it's not like we need both kidneys, or both lungs. Two eyes/ears do help with 3d effects, but really that's not what two traces would be used for. Redundancy is therefore useless.

Ahh interesting, so the other lung and kidney are just there as backup and not used simultaneously and depth perception is just a useless byproduct of evolution ? Good someone - if you don't agree with me fine, if you think I have nothing of value to say, thats fine too and if you want to express that, just do it clearly, but don't write such a heap of nonsense.

 

[WizardStan]

I understand what he's saying: the purple tint of death does get worse over time, losing other colours, and even failing completely in some cases. The concern thatgui seems to be having is that everything can be fine for a year, unknown that the cable is slowly failing, until one day you wake up and you have YELLOW tint of death.

I disagree with his concern. Technically it is true, but the odds of failure being small and not progressing is greater than zero. If out of 5000 cables 99 of them fail and one would have failed if not for redundancy then the redundancy has proved useful. And those other 99 managed to survive much longer than without the redundancy so really everyone wins something. Yeah, they still have to replace the cable eventually but they'd have had to do that anyway.

He's also talking about feedback but it's not like that would make a difference. If manufacturing goes similar to the Pandora they're made in large batches, and the cable problem is something that happens months, sometimes over a year later: getting early feedback isn't going to make that much of a difference: if a batch was installed incorrectly they're going to have to trust in the redundancy and hope that it doesn't progress, and if it does they're no worse off if it fails 18 months later than if it had after 12 months. But to set minds at ease, I wonder if ED can get them to add some way of knowing that a trace has broken. Maybe add two GPIO lines, similar to what was on the Pandora, and have tem on the outside? And by default just have them connected to a very small power and if they ever gut cut they go floating, thus the CPU can know. GPIOs that can then be replaced with buttons or LEDs or whatever anyone wants aftermarket.

Actually, the back plate has an RGB LED in it, doesn't it? Put the traces for that on the outside (unless they're redundant as well) and then you have a very simple way to check if the cable is broken without losing functionality. "My Pyra logo only lights up blue. The left traces are starting to break". a few people have that problem, not a big concern, just keep an eye out. If 10% of people wake up and their logos all only light up blue then there may be a problem in manufacturing that needs addressing.

 

[ible]

If the cable's traces are mirrored the cable would need to eat halfway through itself before any visible problems occur. You think this is worse than having it snap the moment one trace gives up?

If you want to view it from the "I don't care if I don't see it" point of view, then I guess you are fine. But if there is a potential problem I am more inclined to learn about it rather sooner then later. Or are you happy with a product that has a higher potential of failure in it, as long as you don't notice it?

Wouldn't the double-trace have less of a chance of failure because it has redundancies? You'd have to work "twice as hard" to kill your screen. I suppose you are hoping for feedback to help you know how to better handle your Pyra, in case you are abusing it and don't realize. But at any rate, I'd rather something fail in 2 years rather than 1 year. (Ideally, either solution would last much longer.)

Perhaps the Pyra could electrocute the user if the user was being too rough on it.

 

[fusion_power]

You know the blackberry has a width of about 6cm, which is about half the width the Pandora has, right?

Really?  :blink:    They look much bigger in the pictures, It seems they also have different sizes. This "Passport" version seems to be very wide but I never had an blackberry in hands so I can just speculate. ^^"