Odonata = Not So Great. So What Gp2x Only Games Are You Playing?

[Parkydr]

<RANT>
I suppose the DS having better games has nothing to do with Nintendo being a multi-million dollar company and having several million units in the field, along with support from a lot of major games companies - of course 40ish part-time developers are going to come up with better games!

The GP2X is not a DS, it's a hobbyist machine, that's why it uses Linux. I can't develop for the DS as easily as the GP2X, and Nintendo wouldn't want me to anyway.

Good games are not all about the number of frames per second, whether it's 3D or even if it uses the second processor - look at the games people play emulate.

With the limited number of developers (of varying experience), there are not going to be loads of new releases every week, many devs seem to be working on more complex projects now rather than quick ports. This takes time.

In my day, 32K was a lot of memory and a 200MHz processor unimaginably fast. Just concentrate on what the GP2X can do, not what you would like it to do.
</RANT>

That's better.

 

[EvilDragon]

Guys, what did you expect?

Following the GP32 scene during the last years...

1. In summer, EVERY homebrew scene slows down. People seem to like lying around in the sun. Every half a year, somebody claimed the GP32 was dying...

2. The gp2x had a VERY quick start because porting Linux games is quite easy. However, it was clearly forseeable, that there will come a time, when most easy portable games will have been ported.

3. Each homebrew scene starts with tons of fast-to-code little games, like Tetris or some Puzzle games. Then it slows down - why making another clone of that? People start coding bigger projects, which take a lot more time.

So, I wouldn't worry about a dying scene here, to be honest.

 

[Ravnos]

In the meantime, is there any word on your Kuru Kuru Kururin clone? The preview release showed promise, I thought you had someone doing levels for it and was looking forward to the final release.

Ssssh!

Did I say something wrong?

 

[DaveC]

I will admit the scene seems to be slowing rapidly, like someone hit the brakes sharply 2 months ago. I suspect there are some very good reasons for this.

Well probably one of the reasons is that you are constantly bashing it every chance you get. Everything sucks to you. The CPU sucks, the joystick sucks, the case is too light, it doesn't have a 3D chip, it won't make toast and walk your dog etc. While there certainly are flaws, even the huge megacorp systems from Sony and Nintendo have problems. The DS has small screens with low resolutions and low RAM amount, the PSP has a crap d-pad and militant anti-HB attitude etc. I don't think you make a post anymore that doesn't bash the GP2X for something. Then you run around and trumpet the XGP series like it is a gift from god. Everything is better including the cardboard that the box is made of according to you. Who is going to want to continue to develop for a system that is so horrible after all when the holy grail of handhelds :rolleyes: is just around the corner? All of this talk constantly of "the next big thing" doesn't help. Many will now just wait it out to see what happens. This is why this kind of thing should be done in moderation. When the "next big thing" actually arrives then talk.

@ DB yes if you bought the GP2X for commercial games and epic HB games then I can see your dissappointment. Maybe you should have bought a DS or PSP as the "big guys" that make the best stuff will always go where the money is and that is Sony and Nintendo. The XGp will bite the dust in the commercial area as well even if it gets a bit more support than the GP2X. These is just no room in the commercial arena with Sony and Nintendo slugging it out.

 

[whiskthecat]

People are stupid and they dont like getting smart. They want to take their psp, pop in a umd, and have some easy entertainment. Especially if money is no obstacle. As for the gp2x it takes a higher level of common sense (if that makes sense). But I think it can be more enjoyable at times. Plus its free to load up with homebrew.

 

[gaterooze]

Parkydr: excellent post.

 

[project86]

I agree with both sides of this argument to a certain extent. One the one hand, it sucks that GPH didn't think this thing through a little better so we could unlock it's full potential. On the other hand, it is still an amazing little device that it cheap, fun, and unique. I certainly feel I've had my money's worth even if the scene came to a grinding halt right now.

All these great upcoming games sound good, but the point made earlier is valid: this is not really a commercial game platform. Games like Noize2sa and Beat2X are great examples of how you can do a lot with a little, and make an excellent game.

Interesting side note: I recently went on vacation to a beach house rental with some friends. One of them brought his PSP, another brought his DS, and I had the trusty 2X. We were there for 4 days, and we were all impressed by one thing or another on each of the systems. PSP had some good 3d graphics, I forget the game but it was very impressive. DS had some very fun and unconventional stuff like Big Brain Academy, plus the new Mario game was really fun. They were impressed with the clarity of movies (of which I had several to watch) along with the fact that I had hundreds of NES, SNES, Genesis, GB, Amiga, and Neo Geo games, as well as about a dozen homebrew games and the usual Quake/Hexen/Doom type of stuff, all on a single 2GB SD. The 2X seemed to compete well, and I KNOW I spent a lot less than they did.

 

[DaveC]

I agree with both sides of this argument to a certain extent. One the one hand, it sucks that GPH didn't think this thing through a little better so we could unlock it's full potential. On the other hand, it is still an amazing little device that it cheap, fun, and unique. I certainly feel I've had my money's worth even if the scene came to a grinding halt right now.

All these great upcoming games sound good, but the point made earlier is valid: this is not really a commercial game platform. Games like Noize2sa and Beat2X are great examples of how you can do a lot with a little, and make an excellent game.

Interesting side note: I recently went on vacation to a beach house rental with some friends. One of them brought his PSP, another brought his DS, and I had the trusty 2X. We were there for 4 days, and we were all impressed by one thing or another on each of the systems. PSP had some good 3d graphics, I forget the game but it was very impressive. DS had some very fun and unconventional stuff like Big Brain Academy, plus the new Mario game was really fun. They were impressed with the clarity of movies (of which I had several to watch) along with the fact that I had hundreds of NES, SNES, Genesis, GB, Amiga, and Neo Geo games, as well as about a dozen homebrew games and the usual Quake/Hexen/Doom type of stuff, all on a single 2GB SD. The 2X seemed to compete well, and I KNOW I spent a lot less than they did.

Yeah I think it is always easy for some to bitch about what the GP2X doesn't have. But in all it still does alot of things well. Of course I am a bit biased as I fixed the one biggest flaw of the GP2X when I put in my D-pad mod The M2 stick wasn't that terrible though. I got along with it ok for along time.

 

[shinneri]

Someone port VNS or Gigas, and I'll make a game. Unfortunately, I don't think the source is available for either, and Virtualeech and Pirotic are nowhere to be found.

 

[dodgyville]

I feel obliged to mention my soon-to-be-released real-time strategy game, retrovirus RTS.

Also, if you want original gp2x-only games, there are my first two homebrew games, tunar and Oh! The Humanity!.

Rergards,
Luke

 

[TheMinder]

I bought a MKI after seeing an advert in Retro Gamer magazine and also having a look on a vendor's site and reading up on this board.

The GP2X does exactly what i thought it would, and the scene is exactly what i thought it would be.

Was it advertised in a misleading way in the US ?

I noticed the other day that Blazar is something like £4 for download on the 2X and that seems a realistic type of price for any sort of commercial game on a platform such as this, because i really don't see it as being that type of handheld.

I don't actually think Epicenter posts as he does for this reason, but Stargazer has had at least 6 months (is it longer?) of hype and free advertising and so you would think it might sell fairly well (i would say "very well" but there is a chance that having the lead developer post in the style he does will negatively impact on sales). A question i would be interested to ask the development team is how many units is Stargazer expected to sell and at what sales price ?

 

[Epicenter]

This is a tricky issue, so I'll just try to sum up my concerns on the topic in the most concise and civil fashion possible. It is apparent to anyone GPH is a small company, not a large corporation, and the GP2X is not a high-profile product. However, I do feel distinctions need to be drawn between a product that is from a small company, and a faulty product. I own many devices from very small companies. My monitor, some of my networking gear, PCMCIA cards, speakers and USB hardware are made by tiny companies, often in China or Taiwan with smaller budgets than GPH. Despite this, they are high-quality and reliable hardware. "Small company" and "Unreliable, Sketchy hardware" should not be synonomous. This is true that the DS, PSP and other popular systems have faults. However, most are comprimises of design made voluntarily, e.g. the DS' display resolution per screen. This is not easily comparable to a stick that approaches unusability for a large percentage of games, an incompatible LCD, broken SD-DMA support, so forth.

Whether the GP2X is well suited to its function is a loaded question. The hardware is in strong disagreement with a focus on gaming-- its specifications are more suited for media playback. However, GPH's marketing standpoint is disputable. GPH maintains their focus on multimedia/PMP functionality, while Craig's marketing campaign in the GP2X's early days was game-focused. It was made out to be a solid gaming platform, and to this day has commercial endeavors. This suggests to the consumer it may be trusted as a stable platform for commercial gameplay, and it suggestes to developers it is a solid platform for design of software.

Now, it bears mentioning that I do not approach the GP2X as 'high-profile' hardware. I, our team, and the publisher who expressed interest in our work have a great sense of value for niche platforms. It is an unusual endeavor involving an unusual publisher, one not interested in what is 'big and popular' right now, and would rather have a crowd of 100 users who enjoy a product than a crowd of thousands who just shrug it off as 'another game'. The sort of company who shares my mentality of appealing to a smaller audience which can be better targeted, and a more enjoyable product made available to them. Were this not the case, we would pursue a different platform, like the DS or PSP.

It's important to note that if such faults are to be taken as par for the course, this must be made apparent from the outset. Commercial marketing endeavors and press surrounding the GP2X make claims to the contrary, and do not make the machine out to be a 'hackers-only device' for tinkerers who don't mind fixing problems on their own that the manufacturer did not bother to. Statements like these are made only by unaffiliated third parties. If the machine is NOT designed to be a serious commercial development platform, press should indicate it and GPH/GBAX should not pursue commercial game development/licensing endeavors. The current combination of hardware that is treated as 'buy-at-your-own-risk' combined with attempts at commercial support is a contradiction that is harmful to consumers and developers.

DaveC- we've both discussed the GP2X/XGP issue before, and we both have full understanding of each other's points, so I will not take the time to agitate either of us by engaging in those points again. Your opinions are as valid as mine are, and your views are your own, I cannot deny you those. However, I feel you are bringing too much aggression to the table, making the issue into more of a struggle than a simple discussion of hardware design, marketing and software development as it should be. If you want to discuss parallels and differences between the GP2X/XGP design, development feasibility and marketing on a rational and sensible level, that's fine, but no one benefits from the sort of sentiment I'm seeing from posts like this one. I'll just say that on the matter.

As for Stargazer and my team's endeavors, it does appear that our ambitions and views coincide better with Gamepark's design/marketing philosophy, which proves itself daily to be quite the polar opposite of GPH in many regards. I view most of these differences as positive steps. It must be understood I'm a blunt, straightforward and to-the-point sort of person. I do not take time or resources to entertain things wholly on principle if it becomes impractical, and it would appear that development of Stargazer exclusively for the GP2X platformer is no longer an advantageous strategy. Therefore it is increasingly unlikely this will happen. Should the title become geared toward the XGP/XGPmini handhelds as appears increasingly more likely all the time, I do expect to release a scaled-back version for the GP2X as well. However, design comprimises in the GP2X simply will not permit this to be more than an 'option', as attempting to achieve our goals on the GP2X will likely ruin the very spirit of the game, which is not something we'd permit.

As for marketing and sales .. the market will have to prove itself. It could be very small, or very large as far as a niche product goes. I would not expect the title to be expensive, however. I find it 'highly unlikely' it would be sold for more than $50, and probably less than $40. It is important to remember, however, that what we're aiming for isn't a casual attempt at a 'commercial' game, but a true product that could be sold from store shelves. Boxed, packaged, standalone-- much like you'd purchase a game cartridge in this form for a portable console from Nintendo. This may put further into perspective why my views regarding the GP2X's design discrepancies and inconsistencies weigh as heavily as they do in this matter.

 

[TheMinder]

Slightly opening this up a bit, Vektar , which sounds to be a project on a much lesser scale than Stargazer retails for £19.99 ($37.12 today) on a boxed SD card.

Has craig mentioned how many units have been purchased ?

Do we know how many units Blazar has moved (i know it's slightly different as it's multiple platform)?

I know that might be private information but would it not give any potential commercial developers some extra insight into whether it's worth developing a product solely for the 2X ? Obviously bad figures might show it wasn't worth while and hence that would be that.

 

[Epicenter]

The upshot is that GP2X software is not terribly special. It's simply a case of an ARM-Linux binary executable and files stored on a FAT-based filesystem-formatted SD card. Therefore, compatibility between systems like the GP2X, XGP/XGPmini, PocketPC and Palm, and were one so inclined, Gizmondo and other devices sharing the same CPU architecture is not terribly difficult. I don't see much logic in GP2X-exclusive software, for that reason. I could see marketing a game as being compatible with the GP2X as a plus, but exclusivity isn't terribly logical.

As for Vektar, I was terribly unimpressed and let down by GBAX/GPH's concept of 'boxing' it. We were originally in negotiations with Craig to produce a commercial game for the system, which we were told, on top of many other things that turned out not to be true, that the games would ship on custom SD cards packed in boxes much like a Japanese GBA or Famicom style box. Professional and well worth a price premium like 20gbp (which works out to nearly $40 USD with current exchange rates.) What was shown at the GC 2006 in Germany, as evidenced from EvilDragon's photos, is that the copies of Vektar are stored on ordinary rewritable SD cards of a generic nature, in the usual protective clear plastic cover, rattling around haphazardly inside what appears to be the package for the TV-Out cable, featuring different graphics on the cardboard, stapled shut. When a package of breath strips at the grocery store is packaged more securely, it's not confidence-inspiring at all, and makes one wonder why the title is even being sold as a card with restrictive DRM when an online distribution would be easier, faster, cheaper, and less limiting to the end-user.

This issue was really the exclamation point on an upsettingly long list of issues with the GP2X as a development platform that were presented as wholly different during earlier negotiations with Craig/GBAX before anyone on the team purchased a GP2X. Our experiences with the complete lack of truthful presentation of the products and services involved, as well as lack of any semblance of professionalism on Craig and GBAX's part, has likely done much to influence our present relationship with the first-parties involved in the GP2X scene.

 

[gaterooze]

Were this not the case, we would pursue a different platform, like the DS or PSP.

Don't mean to be rude, but if you think it's as simple as just 'choosing' which platform you will release it on, you're kidding yourself. Do you realize how much cost and effort you need to invest to get something released on a Nintendo or Sony commercial platform?

This is not easily comparable to a stick that approaches unusability for a large percentage of games

a) you have a Mk1, so you can't accurately comment on the current state of hardware, and B) that statement is utter rot. The stick is perfectly usable on any type of game -- if you use a Mk2 stick with a suitable cap and still don't think so, the problem lies with your dexterity.

If you think that is broken hardware, I wonder how you would sum up the PSP's D-pad?

If you're so down on the GP2X as a viable commercial platform (which it was never really intended to be, that's just a nice bonus), why continue to rant and rave about your game here? Either put up a demo version on GP2X to test the market reaction, or settle on another platform.

I sincerely hope it's as great as you think and you sell a lot of copies.

 

[Alex.]

So Stargazer will cost $40-$50? Isn't that a little steep? Just because the industry overprices things, should 'homebrew' commercial developers do as well? Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down your work, but it's very likely that you will put off a large part of your possible market this way. Most GP2X owners bought this device solely for its freeware software, with commercial being more of a bonus. Reading your post makes me think that packaging is 40% or so of the whole price. That being said, will a downloadable, affordable version of Stargazer be made available?

I'm a bit confused by what you said about a scaled-back version for the GP2X. Is the GP2X really that underpowered that a decent shoot-em-up is no longer feasible on it? For God's sake, it's a 200Mhz+ machine, and the HW SDL makes it run pretty damn fast. Of course, I know very little of your game, perhaps it is incredibly graphic intensive.

- Alex

 

[jimmyslam]

Sh, The scene is going great, There are a lot os BIG projects on progress.

Wiki WIP

We need a better libs for the official SDK. Some people uses HW acceleration using paeryn SDL or Rlyeh minilib (that one hard to use but powerful).
If we can get the games we get using NEO GEO emulation, what the hell can we get without emulation running specific gp2x code! We have 200Mhz, 2 chips and ~64 Mb of RAM ?! For jc sake!

Come on, this is not dead! This is just the beginning, dont be that impatient

I read huge improvements on the games i see every week on the spanish scene. Here too eh?

Cheers!

 

[rooster]

I just hope that this promised *docking* BoB is not a let down.

AAGH! i just peed my pants with excitement. docking BoB you say? where?
where do i find more info on this!?!?!

 

[skeezix]

The various gp2x hardware isses are not a problem. The problem is that for indi developers selling online all their customer base has a pc with a nice big screen and lots of power. Many will also have a console attached to a tv with nice comfortable controlers.
All the gp2x can really offer is portability which most people don't care about. For the majority of developers gp2x will never be anything but a target for a possible port.

This one needs a quick reply; eeeh, wrong

People still buy NDS, GBA, PSP, etc games despite having those things; they also buy handheld sofwtare for a Pocket PC despite having real PCs and web access all over the place. Insert dozens of other examples.

People buy when things are compelling; if theres nothing out there to buy, it won't be bought. Easy

jeff

--

Epi -- good posts; it is difficult to stay balanced in such a discussion, and it is difficult to come from a commercial viewport in a hobbyist crowd, and to bring 'factoids' (bad ones) to a fan site.

I will add what has been skirted around but needs to be said; ED did cover a lot of it -- the scenes due tend to ebb and tide, always have and always will.

Now to it -- The GP32 was essentially a piece of junk hardware-wise; what made it 'succeed' (aside from somehow GPH managing to stay alive and make them was the community and the relative openness of the platform.. but mostly the community; GPH bred the machine, the machine bred openness, and the community kept it going, for its own needs. The machine itself was not so hot as to demand people play with it, but they did for the same fealings as people had back in the 80s when home computers/consoles were new -- the fun, the challenge, the well knit community. Like a BBS .. since we all flocked to the same couple of sites, so felt local. Of course, people .. ESPECIALLY tech nerds, grow bored quickly unless things keep moving, hence why they buy other gadgets. Enter the GP2x.

GP2x -- more of the same; its better hardware than the GP32, but incrementally; its still not really well planned or executed, but its a superior machine all around compared to the GP32 -- SD, more RAM (if weird , better built in OS, better construction, more attractive design, etc etc. It _has_ flaws, and some big ones, that can really get annoying quick (I've virtually given up on the alt cpu for my needs; its neat to hack with, but when you're trying to achive somethign and have worked with multicore and multicpu machines before, it gets tiresome); generating music or doing sprite-list-rendering on the alt-cpu just kills performance to the point its not worth doing, though I expected someone creative like Squidge etc would sort out somethign better than I could in limited time

Anyway, so the GP2x hardware isn't all ponies.... the important thing was never the hardware.

You want good hardware, you go PSP; you want good creativity, go NDS. You want good community, you come to GP32 and GP2x.

Now, will the community support the platform? Same as for GP32 -- on and off; people will come and will go and will come again, as long as theres someone active at any given time, it'll be enough to keep the cycle going around

jeff

(As to me, with the little one on the way I've found my time eroded each night, taking care of my wife, and work is over the top now, and my contracts, and all that.. yike! However, I have two GP2x projects in the works, a quick one and my old Time Bandits remake.)

 

[Epicenter]

Sh, The scene is going great, There are a lot os BIG projects on progress.

We need a better libs for the official SDK. Some people uses HW acceleration using paeryn SDL or Rlyeh minilib (that one hard to use but powerful).
If we can get the games we get using NEO GEO emulation, what the hell can we get without emulation running specific gp2x code! We have 200Mhz, 2 chips and ~64 Mb of RAM ?! For jc sake!

Whether the scene is slowing isn't really my biggest concern anymore, I'm more worried about my own work since I don't have as much time to just play with emulators, and I need to focus on my own tasks at hand.

At any rate, the libs that come with the SDK aren't the problem, and if you mean to imply that the libs included by GPH being improved will help performance compared to using third-party ones from Ryleh and Paeryn, that isn't the case. You can get a better-optimized binary using your own copy of GCC, but that's about it. GPH hasn't used any of the blitter's functionality in any of their firmware releases, so we can pretty safely assume they don't know how it works and Paeryn's "HW-SDL" lib is about the best thing we've got-- which isn't a bad thing to be stuck with-- the blitter just isn't that powerful, though.

Yes, I keep thinking to myself, "a 200 MHz ARM9? 64MB of RAM, most of it usable? 2 CPUs? How can this not be capable of more than I'm seeing?" Well, then it hits me again. The RAM is an unavoidable benefit, of course. But the CPUs are both crippled in their own unique way. The 940T coprocessor is impossible to use effectively for most jobs, and usually slows down the main 920T processor more than it helps. The 920T, if you are building a highly graphically-intensive application like I am, gets bogged down worrying about graphics work because the blitter can't deal with it. The 920T is poorly suited to this work. It should ONLY be worrying about game logic and audio decompression but instead, it must waste loads of precious cycles worrying about graphics instead!

I'm curious as to why I've not heard one justification insofar as to why the GP2X "cannot be expected to be" a viable commercial platform, yet there are commercial games being released for it by GPH and GBAX. This is an incredible contradition, one that does not hold up very well to even a bit of scrutiny. It is important to remember we are all consumers, buying hardware and software from companies that want our money. GPH/GP/GBAX are not 'higher powers' who bestow systems upon us, and therefore, their mistakes and faults are not 'forgivable'. If a company sells you a faulty product, you get a refund, a repaired unit, part of your money back, so forth. This attitude should be universal, as it is with me, applying as well to the GP2X. If the machine is faulty, I expect to be satisfied and have the problem(s) corrected, not to just let it go because I want to feel sympathetic to the company.

Even sympathy would be difficult, at least for me, to feel for a company like GPH. They aren't selling their hardware at low prices (as it stands, you can buy a GP2X for about as much as you can buy a PSP for, once you count all the little extras you need which are crucial to its use but not mentioned at sale time, like rechareable batteries and a sizable SD card.) They aren't fighting a valiant holy war against Nintendo and Sony-- they are just out to make a profit like any company. The problems the GP2X encounters are due to poor design, failure to obtain venture capital to pay for proper prototyping/testing before release, and a failure to understand their market outside of Korea, where the majority of units are sold. This is why it's not my job to be sympathetic and a 'friend' of GPH, it's my job to be a customer. Give that some thought.