New render of the Pyra

[Grench]

BTW, maybe I'm taking things for granted, but I guess there is going to be some rubber covering the screws on the lid (as well as the dummy holes on the right side). Won't those be pressing down on at least the bottom left and right keys in the current render?

Personally, I would just as soon have the fake-screw-divots on the right simply removed/flattened AND leave the screw heads on the left exposed and flush to the surface. Preferably with Torx or Allen brushed stainless steel screw heads.

 

[fusion_power]

Black is a good colour, but white is NOT: it may look good at first, but with enough handling it will be smudged with brown. Ugh.

Doesn't stop Apple to use it pretty successful, right?

 

[Natsu]

Yeah, I don't want white either.

 

[Grench]

My color preferences... (Not that I have any say in it since I'll buy it in whatever color ED decides to produce it in.)

Great colors:

1. Very dark -almost black- chili pepper red.

2. Charcoal grey.

3. Very dark purple.

4. Very dark -almost black- burnt orange.

Colors I wouldn't be thrilled about:

1. White - worst option possible.

2. Anything that appears in a rainbow.

3. Pink - any shade.

4. Neon anything.

5. Flat silver.

True flat black would reside somewhere in between.

 

[fusion_power]

I agree that the Pyra should differ from the Pandora also when it comes to colours, so maybe not the same black and of course not the same ugly silver.

We should ask firrst what colors are even available and which "effects" they can have. This 3D printed "stone" effect was not that bad indeed. Some decent "metalic" effect like some NDS models have could also be an option.

Basicly everything that does not make the Pyra look cheap.

 

[comradekingu]

Will there be tangible differences between some of the keys (like F and J being special) to help touch-navigation?

You always hold it relative to the position of the keys, and can navigate from that, special F and J doesn't do much to that same effect. Try putting something on F and J on the pandora and see if it makes a difference.

I quite often find that I press F instead of G (and vice versa) or J instead of H when I do not/cannot look at the keyboard, when using the Pandora. On the Pyra there shall be more and smaller keys, making mistakes like this more likely. With tangible differences, one can find keys with smaller counts -- on the Pyra, both F and H are 4 keys away from a corner key, while for G the number is 5. If F and H (or J) were marked, then no key would be more than 2 keys away from either a corner key or F or H (or J). Plus, with "holding the Pandora relative to the position of the keys", one can quickly place one's thumb down, feel that one has found F (as it is different from other keys on the left hand side) and move the thumb to G to press it (with confidence!), or place it to the left edge of the keyboard to find TAB and go two keys right to press W.

When typing in a text document, it is OK to make mistakes* and then backspace and try again (with a slightly higher chance of success because of short-term spatial memory), but for certain games pressing the wrong key may have frustrating consequences (like Fn+6 vs Fn+7 -- for F6 vs F7 -- for quick-saving and quick-loading for example: pressing the wrong one of those could result in a significant amount of wasted time).

*Exception: VIM. Meant :q! but typed in :w!<ENTER>? Oops!

I am considering putting some small paper stickers on some of the Pandora keys to make playing keyboard-heavy DOS games a little easier.

Unless you try it, there is no obvious conclusion to be drawn from it working on 10-finger keyboards.

When your index fingers are on F and G on a regular keyboard, that is a frame of reference for the rest. If all you have is two thumbs, the most similar frame of reference is the grip of your palm on the case relative to your two thumbs.

I dont like nubs on F and G, it feels off, i dont use the F G a lot, but concave buttons are ok.

You are also at the option of sanding down F and G to give it a rougher texture. Or you could mask it off and apply a circle of nail-laquer/varnish.

TL;DR its on you to test this.

 

[Haraldur]

I do not like to have to guess what the button I am about to press shall do. If I want to press E on the Pandora, in the dark when I cannot see, I do NOT just guess where is is based upon my grip of the device and the position of my thumb; instead, I find the Q, on a corner, and count through two keys: W, do not want, then E, do want. Simple enough, and I am confident that I have the right key. It also does not take too long. If, in the same situation, I want to find G, I find Q, go down to A (1), then S (2) then D (3) then F (4) and finally G (5). By this time I may have lost count -- if not, it still took a little while. OR... I move the screen so that it lights the keyboard -- of course, this takes a little longer than ideal AND proper typing should not be done by LOOKING at the keyboard, but by looking on the screen output.

Perhaps I am uniquely uncoordinated, but I do not believe that most people can quickly type on the Pandora, without frequent corrections and without looking at the keyboard, as tactile navigation in the middle of the keyboard is difficult. On the Pyra, with more and smaller keys, I expect more difficulty.

I have not, as yet, worked out a system of using my grip as a reference; I use the touch of my thumbtips for reference, but since the keys (except SPACE) are mostly identical, the centre of the keyboard is featureless, and, so, difficult to navigate.

Concave buttons would be fine. I do not have a preference for the specific form of differentiation, there just has to be some difference (the SPACE bar is easy, as it is a different shape). On a typical accordion, the bass keys, invisible to the player, are typically convex, with the occasional concave key AND the occasional textured key.

I cannot test the Pyra keyboard.

Grench:

The nubs are too far away from the keyboard to be a good guide for finding G or V, quickly, unless one is content to risk hitting the wrong key (not always acceptable).

Keyboard backlight: nice, but it is bad to have to always look at the keyboard to use it -- it is a tactile device, that is one of its major advantages vs. a touchscreen. With a good keyboard, one knows, without looking, that a key has been pushed far enough for its signal to register and that it is the right key.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be significantly perturbed by having bumps or recesses (which I think are better) on some keys, but, even so, there are more subtle schemes that are possible: different key shapes (SPACE already counts, F and J may be slightly rounded... but it is probably too late for that), overall concavity or convexity (the rest, I believe, are intended to be flat), etc..

 

[comradekingu]

I both dont like nubbed F and J, and I am able to touch type just fine using the system i described.


Your proposed change, is untested, try it on the pandora to see if it helps you there.

 

[Grench]

I do not like to have to guess what the button I am about to press shall do. If I want to press E on the Pandora, in the dark when I cannot see, I do NOT just guess where is is based upon my grip of the device and the position of my thumb; instead, I find the Q, on a corner, and count through two keys: W, do not want, then E, do want. Simple enough, and I am confident that I have the right key. It also does not take too long. If, in the same situation, I want to find G, I find Q, go down to A (1), then S (2) then D (3) then F (4) and finally G (5). By this time I may have lost count -- if not, it still took a little while. OR... I move the screen so that it lights the keyboard -- of course, this takes a little longer than ideal AND proper typing should not be done by LOOKING at the keyboard, but by looking on the screen output.

Perhaps I am uniquely uncoordinated, but I do not believe that most people can quickly type on the Pandora, without frequent corrections and without looking at the keyboard, as tactile navigation in the middle of the keyboard is difficult. On the Pyra, with more and smaller keys, I expect more difficulty.

I have not, as yet, worked out a system of using my grip as a reference; I use the touch of my thumbtips for reference, but since the keys (except SPACE) are mostly identical, the centre of the keyboard is featureless, and, so, difficult to navigate.

Concave buttons would be fine. I do not have a preference for the specific form of differentiation, there just has to be some difference (the SPACE bar is easy, as it is a different shape). On a typical accordion, the bass keys, invisible to the player, are typically convex, with the occasional concave key AND the occasional textured key.

I cannot test the Pyra keyboard.

Grench:

The nubs are too far away from the keyboard to be a good guide for finding G or V, quickly, unless one is content to risk hitting the wrong key (not always acceptable).

Keyboard backlight: nice, but it is bad to have to always look at the keyboard to use it -- it is a tactile device, that is one of its major advantages vs. a touchscreen. With a good keyboard, one knows, without looking, that a key has been pushed far enough for its signal to register and that it is the right key.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be significantly perturbed by having bumps or recesses (which I think are better) on some keys, but, even so, there are more subtle schemes that are possible: different key shapes (SPACE already counts, F and J may be slightly rounded... but it is probably too late for that), overall concavity or convexity (the rest, I believe, are intended to be flat), etc..

You don't actually have to look/concentrate on a backlit keyboard to get a 'mental frame of reference'.  Your thumbs form a natural arc from the corners of your grip.  Just the shadows of your thumbs over the keys and having some filter through between them gives a positional frame of reference without having to 'look' at the keyboard.  Nobody is going to stop you from disfiguring the keys on your own Pyra if you need bumps.  Don't curse the rest of us with them though, OK?

 

[ekianjo]

Now that I see more renderers, the case indeed missing the improved edges, I thought they were approved...

What happend?

uh oh, you are right, they are missing.

ED, did you decide against them in the end ? Any particular reason ?

The edges and corners look very rounded compared to the Pandora.  Look at his most recent tweet.

They don't look at all like in the left version of the above graph, though. 

 

[rygD]

Now that I see more renderers, the case indeed missing the improved edges, I thought they were approved...

What happend?

uh oh, you are right, they are missing.

ED, did you decide against them in the end ? Any particular reason ?

The edges and corners look very rounded compared to the Pandora.  Look at his most recent tweet.

They don't look at all like in the left version of the above graph, though. 

That is true, but the corners look like they have that same roundness.  The big difference is the rest of those edges also look like they are rounded the same amount as the corners.  The edges around the screen also appear to be rounded.

Is there a major benefit of doing it like that image above instead of how it is in the recent rendered images?  I figured all those rounded edges would be better for the people that have been injured by their Pandoras, or whatever the concern is.

 

[thatgui]

You don't actually have to look/concentrate on a backlit keyboard to get a 'mental frame of reference'.  Your thumbs form a natural arc from the corners of your grip.  Just the shadows of your thumbs over the keys and having some filter through between them gives a positional frame of reference without having to 'look' at the keyboard.  Nobody is going to stop you from disfiguring the keys on your own Pyra if you need bumps.  Don't curse the rest of us with them though, OK?

What downsides are you worried about if a feature like Haraldur requested would be incorporated in the keymats design ?


I was in the same situation as Haraldur with neiter my handgrip, a "natural arc", or the nubs beeing any feasable point of reference for my fingers in order to find the right key without looking. Your "suggestions" to solve this situations aren't very helpfull either - maybe its just me, but the light emitted from screen did not help me at all reading character on the keyboard (due to the shiny key surface) and if you use the Pandora/Pyra as intended (lid open in an angle > 100°) the emitted light from the screen won't help you much. But this is pointless anyway as the whole point of the request is to not have to look on the keyboard. And your suggestion (or comradekingus) to physically damage a device one paid 500+ EUR/USD/whatever for is something I put in the "mabye he tried to joke, but I just don't get it" category. I could - of course - bring up the point that melting such a small surface without any real clue on how a "key" is actually designed is a hit or miss kind of action, and needs some skill and tools not everyone has, but I am still hoping for the "joke"-thing

 

[Grench]

You don't actually have to look/concentrate on a backlit keyboard to get a 'mental frame of reference'.  Your thumbs form a natural arc from the corners of your grip.  Just the shadows of your thumbs over the keys and having some filter through between them gives a positional frame of reference without having to 'look' at the keyboard.  Nobody is going to stop you from disfiguring the keys on your own Pyra if you need bumps.  Don't curse the rest of us with them though, OK?

What downsides are you worried about if a feature like Haraldur requested would be incorporated in the keymats design ?I was in the same situation as Haraldur with neiter my handgrip, a "natural arc", or the nubs beeing any feasable point of reference for my fingers in order to find the right key without looking. Your "suggestions" to solve this situations aren't very helpfull either - maybe its just me, but the light emitted from screen did not help me at all reading character on the keyboard (due to the shiny key surface) and if you use the Pandora/Pyra as intended (lid open in an angle > 100°) the emitted light from the screen won't help you much. But this is pointless anyway as the whole point of the request is to not have to look on the keyboard. And your suggestion (or comradekingus) to physically damage a device one paid 500+ EUR/USD/whatever for is something I put in the "mabye he tried to joke, but I just don't get it" category. I could - of course - bring up the point that melting such a small surface without any real clue on how a "key" is actually designed is a hit or miss kind of action, and needs some skill and tools not everyone has, but I am still hoping for the "joke"-thing

Nope. Not a joke. It's not modifying a $500 device, but a $15 key mat, but only if YOU feel that you have to. If modding things scares you, I'm sure someone with a drill press, soldering iron, rotary tool, hobby knife or teething 2 year old (that one IS a joke) could slightly mangle the surface of one or more key caps for you.

Also, not a joke, if you guys convince ED to mangle one or more keys from the factory on this - the rest of us CAN NOT easily 'fix' that.

Having no key deformations from the factory does not prevent people who want them from having them.

Having key deformations from the factory PREVENTS people who DON'T want them from NOT having them.

Do you see the difference?

The Pyra is not the Pandora. The Pyra has a back-lit keyboard. Your thumbs will block the light emitted through some of the keys - leaving a frame of reference that you can see/detect in your peripheral vision. You'll have a very good idea of where your thumbs are at without having to study the keyboard constantly.

 

[Saber]

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would be significantly perturbed by having bumps or recesses (which I think are better) on some keys, but, even so, there are more subtle schemes that are possible: different key shapes (SPACE already counts, F and J may be slightly rounded... but it is probably too late for that), overall concavity or convexity (the rest, I believe, are intended to be flat), etc..

Last word on the subject was ED would look into adding raises to the F and J buttons. Neelix and I talked about how putting these ledges at the upper left and lower right(or lower left and upper right) corners of these two keys. Something subtle yet tactile for the thumbs without disrupting the inner part where the backlighting radiates.    

 

[thatgui]

Nope. Not a joke.

First off, Apologies for the rude tone of my last post - should have thought twice before hitting the "post" button

It's not modifying a $500 device, but a $15 key mat, but only if YOU feel that you have to. If modding things scares you, I'm sure someone with a drill press, soldering iron, rotary tool, hobby knife or teething 2 year old (that one IS a joke) could slightly mangle the surface of one or more key caps for you.

This is all from your specific point of view, you may see the Pyra as a sum of different parts, others see it "as a whole" thus your point is completly irrelevant, even if somebody knew someone, its quite probable that this person knows nothing about how the keymat is structured or if its feasable to damage it in such a way, especially as these person will most certainly not cover any costs that may arise due to a mistake made during the process.

Also, not a joke, if you guys convince ED to mangle one or more keys from the factory on this - the rest of us CAN NOT easily 'fix' that.


Having no key deformations from the factory does not prevent people who want them from having them.


Having key deformations from the factory PREVENTS people who DON'T want them from NOT having them.


Do you see the difference?

I can also see the difference in surface texture of a peach and a pinapple. Unless you provide some context (reasons why it is bad that other people are affected by Haraldurs wish) it is of no interest

The Pyra is not the Pandora. The Pyra has a back-lit keyboard. Your thumbs will block the light emitted through some of the keys - leaving a frame of reference that you can see/detect in your peripheral vision. You'll have a very good idea of where your thumbs are at without having to study the keyboard constantly.

Again, you missed the point for Haraldurs wish, not to have to look at the keyboard at all > take the Pyra, just stare at the screen, form the "arc" with your thumbs, touch the keys surface, either be reassured momentarily by feeling some sort of bumps/recesses/whatever or searching around that area till you find that certain surface characteristic and then start to move your fingers from these points on, no need for having the Pyra in your hands always in the same position, no "arc shadow" searching, keyboard backlight or tilting the screen so you can see whats written on the keys necessary, just start typing

I think this could be an additional improvement of the Pyras keyboard, that not only Haraladur or maybe I could benefit from, but others too. Of course, if someone (or ED) comes around and says "its too late for that" , "it creates additional costs that are too high to be justified by a quite blurry expectation of usage improvement" or "manufacturer xy tried this on his product z, which is comparable to the Pyra in certain aspects, and users right out rejected/where put off by it, because reason(s) " or simply "because reason(s)" then I have no reason to keep this idea alive.

But everything I could distill from your posts was "bah, I don't like it". So do you have any viable reason not to include it ?

 

[levi]

Again, you missed the point for Haraldurs wish, not to have to look at the keyboard at all

That's why he mentioned peripheral vision - I can see my hands while typing this on my laptop and watching the text, and that's a much bigger device than the Pyra will be.

However, I'll take this moment to mention that I won't use any nubs or differentiation on the Pyra's home keys, since I don't use home keys on even a full-sized PC keyboard, but likewise, I don't mind if they're there, like on a full-sized PC keyboard.

 

[Grench]

Again, you missed the point for Haraldurs wish, not to have to look at the keyboard at all > take the Pyra, just stare at the screen, form the "arc" with your thumbs, touch the keys surface, either be reassured momentarily by feeling some sort of bumps/recesses/whatever or searching around that area till you find that certain surface characteristic and then start to move your fingers from these points on, no need for having the Pyra in your hands always in the same position, no "arc shadow" searching, keyboard backlight or tilting the screen so you can see whats written on the keys necessary, just start typing

I think this could be an additional improvement of the Pyras keyboard, that not only Haraladur or maybe I could benefit from, but others too. Of course, if someone (or ED) comes around and says "its too late for that" , "it creates additional costs that are too high to be justified by a quite blurry expectation of usage improvement" or "manufacturer xy tried this on his product z, which is comparable to the Pyra in certain aspects, and users right out rejected/where put off by it, because reason(s) " or simply "because reason(s)" then I have no reason to keep this idea alive.

But everything I could distill from your posts was "bah, I don't like it". So do you have any viable reason not to include it ?

Nope.  Not missing the point.  Just seeing it as being redundant.  Pick up your Pandora.  Hold it comfortably with your thumbs on the nubs.  Naturally arc your thumbs down and in over the keyboard area.  They first impact the R and U keys.  Down and in from those are F and H.  Down and out from those are D and J.  You can skip them all and swing them to the bottom row and naturally land on C and N.  No bumps, lumps, shapes or scrapes required.  Locating off of the nubs and natural thumb arc is JUST as effective as mangling keys.

Need another method?  Hold the Pandora comfortably.  Stretch both thumbs to the middle of the 2nd row of the keyboard.  Unless you have one thumb substantially larger than the other, they will meet on the G key - which is dead center in the layout.

BUTBUT that's not the F and J keys of a normal keyboard!!!  How can we touch type???  Anyone asking that question either has no idea how small these keyboards are or has the hands of a pixie.  The Pandora is 108mm from the left edge of Q to the right edge of P.  That is 10 keys in space of 5.5 keys on a 'normal keyboard'.  I.e. the space from the left edge of Q to the middle of the Y key on the keyboard you're probably using now.  It is a thumb keyboard.

So, bumps, lumps, protrusions, shapes, scrapes and otherwise mangled surfaces to keys are not needed by anyone.

Tack on the backlight - which gives a peripheral vision point of reference - and the issue becomes moot.

Why do I not want them?  Every small device I have ever had that HAS bumps on the keys winds up triggering those keys as I brush my thumb over the key to reach one beyond it.  Brushing your thumb over the key tops DOES depress them slightly - but without triggering.  Hit a bump and it pulls the key top sideways and down, sometimes triggering a false key.  So - then you hold your thumbs higher, and loose the tactile nature of running your thumb over it to begin with.

The other reason is aesthetics.  It's easy to add an imperfection.  It's nearly impossible to remove one.

 

[Natsu]

"It's easy to add an imperfection. It's nearly impossible to remove one."

I only scanned this debate, but this is how I feel too.

 

[FaeMinx]

"It's easy to add an imperfection. It's nearly impossible to remove one."

My god, tell me about it!

 

[comradekingu]

You don't actually have to look/concentrate on a backlit keyboard to get a 'mental frame of reference'.  Your thumbs form a natural arc from the corners of your grip.  Just the shadows of your thumbs over the keys and having some filter through between them gives a positional frame of reference without having to 'look' at the keyboard.  Nobody is going to stop you from disfiguring the keys on your own Pyra if you need bumps.  Don't curse the rest of us with them though, OK?

What downsides are you worried about if a feature like Haraldur requested would be incorporated in the keymats design ? ----

I already know i prefer blank keys, so its a disadvantage to me. Haraldur cant touch type now on a pandora, whereas i can, maybe people are different, what do I know.

What im saying is there is no evidence that this change for sure helps for mobile keyboards (for those people?) in that matter. One small small drop of polyurethane glue on each key that hardens, or something that peels off, is all it takes to test. It should be tested. If it is tested to work then thats at-least a frame of reference to go by.

The potential benefit to be had could just as easily go the other way, where it could be problematic is it could rub against the screen, damaging the screen like we see on many laptops, or it could produce visually disturbing effects with the backlighting. Could be good, could be bad. I like to side with known-good.

What we do know is that the keyboard company can make single buttons , behaving like single buttons. (thats the baseline of what they have to get right) As soon as you start straying away from that, you add another level of complexity with potential downfall.