New render of the Pyra

[FaeMinx]

"It's easy to add an imperfection. It's nearly impossible to remove one."

My god, tell me about it!

 

[comradekingu]

You don't actually have to look/concentrate on a backlit keyboard to get a 'mental frame of reference'.  Your thumbs form a natural arc from the corners of your grip.  Just the shadows of your thumbs over the keys and having some filter through between them gives a positional frame of reference without having to 'look' at the keyboard.  Nobody is going to stop you from disfiguring the keys on your own Pyra if you need bumps.  Don't curse the rest of us with them though, OK?

What downsides are you worried about if a feature like Haraldur requested would be incorporated in the keymats design ? ----

I already know i prefer blank keys, so its a disadvantage to me. Haraldur cant touch type now on a pandora, whereas i can, maybe people are different, what do I know.

What im saying is there is no evidence that this change for sure helps for mobile keyboards (for those people?) in that matter. One small small drop of polyurethane glue on each key that hardens, or something that peels off, is all it takes to test. It should be tested. If it is tested to work then thats at-least a frame of reference to go by.

The potential benefit to be had could just as easily go the other way, where it could be problematic is it could rub against the screen, damaging the screen like we see on many laptops, or it could produce visually disturbing effects with the backlighting. Could be good, could be bad. I like to side with known-good.

What we do know is that the keyboard company can make single buttons , behaving like single buttons. (thats the baseline of what they have to get right) As soon as you start straying away from that, you add another level of complexity with potential downfall.

 

[Haraldur]

Again, markers need not be bumps. If the marker is a recess, then I doubt one could accidentally press a key because of that, particularly not on a keyboard like the Pandora's, where keys have a long travel distance (though I know that the Pyra's key travel distance shall be shorter). Also, a recess could not rub against a screen. A recess is also more difficult to make oneself than a screen-endangering bump.

Grench: thank you for those instructions, I shall try them out, but I still think they shall be insufficient as they seem to require a specific grip (will test). Also, the Pyra's keys being smaller may make this less foolproof.

 

[levi]

Pick up your Pandora. Hold it comfortably with your thumbs on the nubs. Naturally arc your thumbs down and in over the keyboard area. They first impact the R and U keys. Down and in from those are F and H. Down and out from those are D and J. You can skip them all and swing them to the bottom row and naturally land on C and N.

I have a different grip for keyboard typing on my pandora to that which I use for the gaming controls.  It's not hard to switch between the two, but it does mean I kinda lose my points of reference.

That said, I've never had a big problem typing in the dark, after maybe a single false start.  I have more difficulty remembering where all the punctuation is sometimes.  The Pyra's standardised (US) number row and backlight will help with that.

 

[rygD]

Not being able to recall where punctuation is messes me up often with my Pandora.  Some thing, like period and comma, I remember quickly, while I can't remember others at all, like question mark.  I remember pipe and escape and tab though, which are in somewhat odd places (escape is super easy though).  Yesterday I had the opposite problem when using a full size keyboard, and started trying to type like things are on a Pandora.  I looked down when something wasn't where I expected and felt stupid.

 

[Neelix]

Nope.  Not missing the point.  Just seeing it as being redundant.  Pick up your Pandora.  Hold it comfortably with your thumbs on the nubs.  Naturally arc your thumbs down and in over the keyboard area.  They first impact the R and U keys.  Down and in from those are F and H.  Down and out from those are D and J.  You can skip them all and swing them to the bottom row and naturally land on C and N.  No bumps, lumps, shapes or scrapes required.  Locating off of the nubs and natural thumb arc is JUST as effective as mangling keys.

Need another method?  Hold the Pandora comfortably.  Stretch both thumbs to the middle of the 2nd row of the keyboard.  Unless you have one thumb substantially larger than the other, they will meet on the G key - which is dead center in the layout.

You're overlooking an important point. Not everyone is the same as you. Different people have differently sized hands. Some people won't consistently hold the unit with exactly the same grip. Some people have better hand-eye coordination than others. Some people have better peripheral vision than others. Some people process information more effectively from particular senses and different people have different strengths in terms of which senses they do process most effectively.

For some people having some kind of texture marker on the F and J keys is going to be the most efficient way to find their place on the keyboard, especially since people have been trained for years to do exactly that. That you can't touch type on such a small keyboard doesn't diminish the usefulness of having a familiar landmark to navigate by.

I see no reason that the texture marker would need to be pronounced enough to interfere with usage in the way you describe. There only needs to be subtle difference, as most people have fairly sensitive fingertips.

-Neelix

 

[FaeMinx]

OMG! Everyone is RIGHT! ... Everyone!

 

[thatgui]

Nope.  Not missing the point.  Just seeing it as being redundant.  Pick up your Pandora.  Hold it comfortably with your thumbs on the nubs.  Naturally arc your thumbs down and in over the keyboard area.  They first impact the R and U keys.  Down and in from those are F and H.  Down and out from those are D and J.  You can skip them all and swing them to the bottom row and naturally land on C and N.  No bumps, lumps, shapes or scrapes required.  Locating off of the nubs and natural thumb arc is JUST as effective as mangling keys.


Need another method?  Hold the Pandora comfortably.  Stretch both thumbs to the middle of the 2nd row of the keyboard.  Unless you have one thumb substantially larger than the other, they will meet on the G key - which is dead center in the layout.

(Again) Booth of these methods have the catch, that you need to have the Pyra always in the same position in your hand,otherwise you either need an exact memory of where the keys are located or you need to start counting row numbers with your fingers.

BUTBUT that's not the F and J keys of a normal keyboard!!!  How can we touch type???  Anyone asking that question either has no idea how small these keyboards are or has the hands of a pixie.  The Pandora is 108mm from the left edge of Q to the right edge of P.  That is 10 keys in space of 5.5 keys on a 'normal keyboard'.  I.e. the space from the left edge of Q to the middle of the Y key on the keyboard you're probably using now.  It is a thumb keyboard.

I am not sure F and J are an ideal position for these special surface characteristic

Tack on the backlight - which gives a peripheral vision point of reference - and the issue becomes moot.

Peripheral vision is just that, its there to recognize movement on the ends of your field of view - everything else requires processing and the shift of attention and/or focus, thus you can just look at the keyboard, instead of trying to pretend that your peripheral vision does something else.

Why do I not want them?  Every small device I have ever had that HAS bumps on the keys winds up triggering those keys as I brush my thumb over the key to reach one beyond it.  Brushing your thumb over the key tops DOES depress them slightly - but without triggering.  Hit a bump and it pulls the key top sideways and down, sometimes triggering a false key.  So - then you hold your thumbs higher, and loose the tactile nature of running your thumb over it to begin with.

Your personal experience against mine - never had this problem with other devices that sported some kind of marking, so this is rather a moot point (unless you have a bigger user group with the same user experience up your sleeve)..

The other reason is aesthetics.  It's easy to add an imperfection.  It's nearly impossible to remove one.

Form always has to follow function, especially if you can hardly notice the difference visually

I already know i prefer blank keys, so its a disadvantage to me.

Aha - its bad because I think its bad > ???


But the rest brings up some good points

Haraldur cant touch type now on a pandora, whereas i can, maybe people are different, what do I know.

Exactly, but (to me) it seems like an easy tradeoff (oh my god call the cops the Pyra will suffer from imperfection) that is potentially beneficial for new users (or maybe even reviewers) that are on the opposite side of the "keyboard pros" spectrum

What im saying is there is no evidence that this change for sure helps for mobile keyboards (for those people?) in that matter. One small small drop of polyurethane glue on each key that hardens, or something that peels off, is all it takes to test. It should be tested. If it is tested to work then thats at-least a frame of reference to go by.


The potential benefit to be had could just as easily go the other way, where it could be problematic is it could rub against the screen, damaging the screen like we see on many laptops, or it could produce visually disturbing effects with the backlighting. Could be good, could be bad. I like to side with known-good.

This is a valid concern, but specifically against having some kind of raised material on the keys, but not against the idea in general (> cavity)

What we do know is that the keyboard company can make single buttons , behaving like single buttons. (thats the baseline of what they have to get right) As soon as you start straying away from that, you add another level of complexity with potential downfall.

Thats why this is not meant has a "DEMAND" but a suggestion that ED can explore if he wishes to

 

[comradekingu]

If you dont have a mental map of where they keys are, you don't know how to touch-type. Using your fingers as a visual intstrument is not a workable option for sighted people.

Blind people use audio-feedback. When you see that what you did was type A, or S, when you meant to type W, thats the exact same thing. Backspace, back to the mental map, and correct.

The whole point of touch-typing is that this should be more effective than having to look at the keyboard.

Ive tried the F J bumps on TOHKBD, and i find it to do nothing but annoy me there.

On a regular keyboard its to position the index fingers in a neutral position, and every other finger along with it.

It doesnt carry over, because when you hold it, you get neutral position for free, and there are no other fingers to align. The index finger has two colums of keys to cover, when its two thumbs, its one half each most of the time.

When the potential downfalls are brought up, the least you could do is test it to see if there is even anything in the potential benefits.

When you type one key, and you know the plane the keyboard is on, the rest of the matrix is always the same.

One octave on a piano doesn't change shape or size just because you use it more often.

On the buttoncluster, the primary button A, isnt different from the rest because it is used more often, and that works fine. You will find A is > or v depending on what position is most comfortable. (this convention is definitely broken with B on the pandora (its <))

A desktop keyboard can maybe move around a bit and its easy to get a frame of reference on F and J, however on a handheld, when you are holding it, you already know. Like a remote.

But again, we can disagree all day, if you test it and it works for you, then thats different. I don't see why that should be on ED, this is your problem to solve.

Edit: If you make the buttons concave to have the same effect, that means there is less keycap atop the membrane. Either it could mean there is not enough, or it could wear down more quickly.

 

[rygD]

On the topic of little feely things on keys, I don't need or want them, but I don't see them causing any harm unless there is a cost increase to do it, in which case I agree with letting owners add some superglue or something themselves.  When I use thumb keyboards that do have them (usually on F and J, which makes sense since that is where they are on a full sized keyboard and many people know this) I have never had them cause me to activate that key while moving my thumbs across it.  I doubt the Pyra keyboard will be so sensitive that this happens.

I believe ED said that there will be some sort of texture difference for a couple of the keys, so can we let that one go?

 

[thatgui]

If you dont have a mental map of where they keys are, you don't know how to touch-type.

The difference is that one requires a mental map of absolute positions while the other one requires only a map filled with relative positioning information.Which makes a huge difference, try it out for yourself, let someone blindfold you and take you into a room you are used to. Now try to find the exit still blindfolded.

Wait several days and repeat the setup but instead of you beeing left somewhere in the room, use a reference point as start (like sitting on your couch). Try compare the time you needed to exit the room and how often you bumped into something, I would be surprised if your not more efficient with the second approach.

Blind people use audio-feedback. When you see that what you did was type A, or S, when you meant to type W, thats the exact same thing. Backspace, back to the mental map, and correct.

Yes, and you can potentially avoid that by altering the surface of two keys slightly - isn't that great ?

It doesnt carry over, because when you hold it, you get neutral position for free, and there are no other fingers to align. The index finger has two colums of keys to cover, when its two thumbs, its one half each most of the time.

As I tried to explain it to Grench, that isn't always the case - and you even hint at that by adding "most of the time" at the end

When the potential downfalls are brought up, the least you could do is test it to see if there is even anything in the potential benefits.

Which potential downsides are there for the general principle ? You mentioned one downfall for a specific kind of implementation of that principle.

Edit: If you make the buttons concave to have the same effect, that means there is less keycap atop the membrane. Either it could mean there is not enough, or it could wear down more quickly.

That is just nonsense: if there would not be enough material left, the manufacturer would hint at that, thus ED would surely decide to skip it. If you are able to wear down the material of key caps by an amount that matters, worrying about thinner caps on certain parts of two keys on your keyboard is the least of your worries.

 

[comradekingu]

Just like you cant rob people of the way they learn, you cant employ that to change how typing works, or how you learn to type.

If you think the frame of reference i use to type is similar to revoking my primary sense and starting to navigate "blindly", you are mistaken on every level there is.

Typing gives tactile and audiovisual feedback, its also all you are doing, with the help of sight, to a level where at some point looking at the keyboard isn't a benefit. As opposed to an entirely new thing, in a unfamiliar way, without it.

The sound reaching your ears from handheld distance is the faster for your brain to process than visuals.

Nubs on F and J are for reference, the same reference holding a handheld gives, only better. Because then you have your frame of reference, you don't have to move your only two means of input arbitrarily to find it. It doesn't translate. To the effect it does, what you are doing is putting braille on all the keys. But do test it in any arrangement you like and see if it helps you and report back.

I can translate my typing to the pandora just fine (sans the missing keys) so I am a known positive. You dont know how (?) and we dont know if your suggested fix will help you. We know it annoys me, because I tested it on TOHKBD (which has square keys)

Its the matrix of keys that matters, and if your baseline fails, everything fails. Just as much as one key being bigger for no reason, wouldn't help even if that was the case. But do provide an example of where it makes sense.

Nor does one key being bigger for no reason help you improve your coordination of your thumb in a way that allows you to gain anything by not looking.

If you allow your accuracy to slip, you can speed up slightly. Moreso you cant maintain accuracy if you increase speed beyond a point. And as such, your spread increases. It could happen to land on the right-hand part of space that you added, but its a singular occurance. On average you are then on every next-neighbour key. Even if you could speed up only for space, it diminishes into nothing.

As a sighted person, i am able to see the keys. I am able to re-allign myself visually a lot faster than you can feel your way ahead, given the premises. At any point in the learning curve and operation, we are dealing with the same singlewide keys to do anything useful.

Hand-eye coordination is how that works, either directly, or indirectly by looking at what you input onscreen.

Feeling your way, on a two-thumb keyboard, when you cant type on feel alone, does nothing.

 

[Neelix]

@comradekingu For someone who talks so much about what how people do things you seem to have a remarkably poor understanding of human nature.  Habits once learned are hard to break.   People are trained to use texture markings as reference point for how to place their fingers on a QWERTY keyboard.  This quickly becomes instinctual.  While the mechanics of thumb typing are very different to those of touch typing, the fact that the same QWERTY layout is being used means that the instincts to use the same points of reference are still going to kick in.  For some this will then be incorporated into how they learn to thumb type.

If such cues are provided they will be used and they are already provided on other thumb keyboards such as those on some HTC phones,  so there is already a precedent which makes it very likely that some users will be used to using exactly these points of reference when thumb typing from the outset.

Just because you find other methods to be more efficient does not mean everyone else will. 

-Neelix

 

[comradekingu]

How is the habit of putting your index fingers on F and J analogous to putting your thumbs on the same keys. Depending on your grip, its not even the same angle.

Just because someone says something works, doesnt mean it has been tested to work.


Ive tested it to annoy me, ball in your court.

 

[fusion_power]

My PC Keyboard has markings at F and J and I never used these markings. I can not type blind but at least with decent speed and with more than just the two finger eagle searching system. ^^

So if you are not a Secretary, you actualy don't need such markings, especialy not on a small Handheld device with thumb-typing. I type these lines on my Pandora right now, laying on my bed, the keyboard 25cm in front of my eyes.

 

[WizardStan]

I never used these markings

You literally have no idea what your brain is doing without you being aware of it. You're constantly taking in all kinds of information that you aren't conciously aware of. You may not think you're using that little dot under your fingers but your brain has already associated that, along with dozens of other small cues, to allow you to type.

 

[Neelix]

How is the habit of putting your index fingers on F and J analogous to putting your thumbs on the same keys. Depending on your grip, its not even the same angle.

Why do we use a QWERTY layout on a thumb keyboard to begin with?  Because it's what we know.  It's a familiar base layout that we've already learned,  which means we can reuse our instinctual knowledge of that layout.  On a QWERTY based thumb keyboard we're doing exactly that, using that same knowledge in a new way.   Part of what we know about about the QWERTY layout is that the F and J keys feel different, and just like our knowledge of of the symbol map this knowledge can be reused in in our new method of typing.

-Neelix

 

[slaeshjag]

I never used these markings

You literally have no idea what your brain is doing without you being aware of it. You're constantly taking in all kinds of information that you aren't conciously aware of. You may not think you're using that little dot under your fingers but your brain has already associated that, along with dozens of other small cues, to allow you to type.

I don't use these markings. If I don't constantly glance at my hands, they'll drift away without me noticing as I type.

 

[WizardStan]

I don't use these markings. If I don't constantly glance at my hands, they'll drift away without me noticing as I type.

You literally have no idea what your brain is doing without you being aware of it. You're constantly taking in all kinds of information that you aren't conciously aware of. You may not think you're using that little dot under your fingers but your brain has already associated that, along with dozens of other small cues, to allow you to type.

 

[Caine]

ED is on fire with creating renderings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSVM7n9yZaU&feature=youtu.be